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[1.4+] BETA: Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.0 Release Candidate 1


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3 hours ago, IgorZ said:

[Enhancement] Integrate support of the legacy KAS.

??? Old KAS instruments included? 0.6 can be removed and install this version(career mode)? Next version will be compatible with this?

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2 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

I just noticed that the icons for KAS 0.6 EVA items and KIS containers are blurry as well

Looks like those icons are being affected by the "texture quality" slider in the game's settings — they look fine if it's set to "full resolution", but they're blurry if it's turned down to something lower.

This isn't specific to KAS/KIS; other mods have had the same problem.  Category and toolbar icons are sort of a special case (compared to textures used on 3D objects) and should be loaded at full resolution regardless of the "texture quality" settings.  There's a way to do that in the API, but some mods don't use it, and end up with blurry icons at lower texture-quality settings.  I checked just now and the CCK category icons are affected too, as well as toolbar icons from CLS and several other mods.

I don't know the API details of how to load textures at full resolution regardless of the quality setting, but I notice that the MKS category icons (e.g. Kolonization, Logistics) don't have this problem, so the MKS code might be a good place to find an example of how to do it.

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6 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

Sorry if I wasn't clear: The hook does stay attached to JS-1, it falls off the W-50 - in KAS 0.6, I can attach it directly to the winch, without a port connector in between.

I'm confused. JS-1 and W-50 are the new parts. How they can or cannot work in the old KAS? They are completely unrelated to the old KAS. If you're trying to attach JS-1 to IW-50 (winch from the old KAS) then it simply won't work, because the parts are incompatible.

7 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

But how would I control the hook, since it is its own vessel without a command pod and any EC?

I guess, you cannot. The hooks are not supported in the new KAS as of now. If you want to use them, you should use the old KAS parts (winch, ports, etc.).

7 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

Also, was it on purpose that there is no "Eject" for the winch anymore?

This function is only useful for the harpoons. Since the new KAS doesn't have them yet, the eject functional is not implemented as well.

6 hours ago, rebel-1 said:

??? Old KAS instruments included? 0.6 can be removed and install this version(career mode)? Next version will be compatible with this?

Yes, you can now remove the old KAS. Moreover, you'll have to if you want to use the new version.

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4 hours ago, IgorZ said:

I guess, you cannot. The hooks are not supported in the new KAS as of now. If you want to use them, you should use the old KAS parts (winch, ports, etc.).

Oh, OK, my bad. I was convinced I read somewhere that it's OK using the old hooks/harpoons etc. together with the new parts. So do you still plan integrating harpoons/hooks etc. in the release?

So am I getting this correct: ropes as well as pipes can transfer fuel and other resources, but the vehicles are not docked and not controllable together?

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5 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Yes, you can now remove the old KAS. Moreover, you'll have to if you want to use the new version.

Perfectly!!!! Many thanks!!!!

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sorry, for the late reply

On 7/25/2018 at 7:02 PM, IgorZ said:

In the docked mode the RTS function completely disables. When the parts are docked, the stock game fuel transfer is working. Maybe I need to add a special message instead of simply closing the dialog.

I phrased that poorly. I meant that the stock fuel transfer doesn't work (correctly) in docked mode. I thought the RTS connection would sort of act like a fuel line connecting the two tanks. But as you see in the screenshot, the In/Out button only shows up on one tank (and it doesn't do anything when clicked). I have never seen this with the stock fuel transfer before, so I assumed it would be a bug because of KAS.

 

the fix for the other issue works nicely. Thanks :)

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On 7/27/2018 at 2:43 PM, infinite_monkey said:

So do you still plan integrating harpoons/hooks etc. in the release?

Not in the first release. In some future release - yes.

On 7/27/2018 at 2:43 PM, infinite_monkey said:

So am I getting this correct: ropes as well as pipes can transfer fuel and other resources

The ropes cannot transfer resources. TJ1 & TJ2 can transfer, given the docked mode is selected. There is also a specially designed part for the resources transfer: RTS-1. The latter is recommended when the main purpose of connecting the vessels is resource transfer.

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Heads up! It seems there are no critical issues in the RC1 build. Unless you stop me (by pointing to an issue), I'll push this version into the main branch on a week of August 6th. Once it's done, everyone will update to the version.

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So everyone from 0.6 will get the new version? That means people are losing harpoons/grappling hooks. I'm not sure everyone will be happy about that, especially if they don't know about it beforehand. I'll wait until some of this is added.

Instead of hooks/harpoons, which are realistic only as an anchor or for shooting at asteroids, some kind of "magnetism" for the RTS-1 + winch could work, so we could attach a RTS-1 to the parts we want to move later, then bring the rope's end close to it, and it would then automatically snap into it. That way we could be cranes that work without a kerbal standing on top of the part we want to move.

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On 8/4/2018 at 6:43 PM, infinite_monkey said:

So everyone from 0.6 will get the new version? That means people are losing harpoons/grappling hooks. I'm not sure everyone will be happy about that, especially if they don't know about it beforehand. I'll wait until some of this is added.

The old KAS 0.6.* parts will be shipped in the new releases for a reasonable period of time (2-4 months). After that, people will have to download the old package separately if they really want to use the old parts. The harpoons stuff will be added in between.

On 8/4/2018 at 6:43 PM, infinite_monkey said:

some kind of "magnetism" for the RTS-1 + winch could work, so we could attach a RTS-1 to the parts we want to move later

RTS is not designed to be a winch, and it's cable is not strong enough to pull or lift anything serious. The winches, on the other hand, are not designed to transfer resources. This separation was done on purpose.

There will be some kind of magnet. I still need to figure out how to incorporate it into the new KAS approach. What I can tell for sure, it will not allow transferring resources, because it's completely unrealistic.

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I noticed that attached parts sometimes don't survive loading the game (or switching from somewhere else? I'm not quite sure). It just happend the second time that when a RTS-1 is linked to a JS-1 in docked mode, after a while/reloading the game/switching sphere of influence, they are still attached and linked, but the JS-1 has just fallen off from the part it was attached to. Something similar happens if something heavy hangs from a winch - after a reload, it is overstressed and falls off. I guess it's some physics glitch in combination with KAS?

The weirdest similar thing that happened was this: I noticed that a part of a rocket docked to a space station was missing. I thought it had exploded for some reason, only to find out it was orbiting alone somewhere else. I never used KAS on that part, though, so I'm not sure it is related.

Something else that bothers me: after attaching parts that have child parts, almost every time the resulting object gets hurled high up in the air. On minmus, they sometimes even make it into orbit. It almost never happens when attaching a single part without child parts.

And many times, things I want to attach are facing the wrong direction. These are mostly MKS parts, but also with e.g. the grappling hook from KAS 0.6

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On 8/9/2018 at 4:40 AM, infinite_monkey said:

Something similar happens if something heavy hangs from a winch - after a reload, it is overstressed and falls off. I guess it's some physics glitch in combination with KAS?

Can you reproduce it on a presstine game (not other mods except KAS)? I'd try to debug a savegame.

On 8/9/2018 at 4:40 AM, infinite_monkey said:

The weirdest similar thing that happened was this: I noticed that a part of a rocket docked to a space station was missing. I thought it had exploded for some reason, only to find out it was orbiting alone somewhere else. I never used KAS on that part, though, so I'm not sure it is related.

I have no idea how KAS could cause it. I give it 1% chance it's KAS that does it, and here I need some steps to reproduce.

On 8/9/2018 at 4:40 AM, infinite_monkey said:

Something else that bothers me: after attaching parts that have child parts, almost every time the resulting object gets hurled high up in the air. On minmus, they sometimes even make it into orbit. It almost never happens when attaching a single part without child parts.

The physics in the game is sometimes very unpredictable. I can imagine it happens. However, to debug it, I need a reproducible case. Can you make one using the pristine game?

On 8/9/2018 at 4:40 AM, infinite_monkey said:

And many times, things I want to attach are facing the wrong direction. These are mostly MKS parts, but also with e.g. the grappling hook from KAS 0.6

"Attaching parts" in 99% of times is a KIS responsibility. The KAS legacy hooks are indeed broken in RC1(I'm glad you've reported it, I though I'm the only one who have noticed). However, the side mods are not expected to be affected, since they are not aware of the KAS 1.0 RC1 :) They simply cannot use the new functionalitylity.

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You can set the length you want by editing the cfg file

GameData/KAS/Parts/Winch1/part.cfg

 

Change: maxLinkLength = 50

to the lnegth you want.

 

I did the same with both winch and rts (for resourcetransfers) on a underwater drillingrig that lowers from surfacebase. should also work with underwater rovers.

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5 hours ago, mrstoned said:

You can set the length you want by editing the cfg file

hey @IgorZ is there a game limitation that prevents this from being tweakable in the VAB/SPH? (not using KAS right now myself to see if it actually is, but assuming its not if someone has to edit a cfg file)

Edited by Drew Kerman
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22 hours ago, SpaceToad said:

Any chance we can get longer winches? Towing gliders and aerial refueling :)

We can. Give your proposals, but keep in mind that it must be physically realistic. Obviously, you cannot place 1km of regular cable into a small box. The more cable you have, the larger and heavier the part must be.

9 hours ago, Drew Kerman said:

hey @IgorZ is there a game limitation that prevents this from being tweakable in the VAB/SPH? (not using KAS right now myself to see if it actually is, but assuming its not if someone has to edit a cfg file)

The part config is loaded once on the game loading and never get updated after this. So changing that static config is not feasible. However, a persistable parameter can be added into the part to allow adjusting the real amount of the cable reserve in the winch up to some max value. However, here we get two issues:

  1. The max should not be beyond a reasonable value. See my comment above.
  2. If the part is already designed to hold some max amount of cable, what would be the rationale to reduce it via the editor?
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Googling for some real world comparisons

Offroading winch rope is 50' (15m) commonly, but I also found a 95' (30m) heavy duty length. Having owned a couple winches I've never seen one on a Jeep that could hold the 95' length. These have fittings on the ends, so this isn't just cut to fit. 

Aerial Refueling Hose length is 15-20m.  That hose is fat and there isn't much room for more in a refueling pod.

Glider tow ropes look to be around 200' (60m), but I found a place selling spools up to 1500' (450m)

 

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Maybe a compromise coulde be done?

A much larger winch with more rope?

Larger RTS for longer hoses.

 

For example a 1/4" ~13mm rope 500m long would require a reel with dia around 70cm and width of around 40cm.

 

a 2" hose ~50mm and 500m would require almost 2m dia and near 1m width of the drum.

a 4" ~100mm will get you around 450m length on 2m dia but 2m wide.

EDIT: or editable in VAB/SPH to scale size and weight? (perhaps tweakscalable? but never been to fond of TS myself).

/Rikard

Edited by mrstoned
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You could maybe add one your self by creating a copy of the winch part.cfg and changing the max length.

you could even tweak the model scale etc in there too, as well as the winch speed, spring, etc.

Making it tweakable might be harder, but you should be able to figure out the real basic things.

 

Edit: I got curious about WW2 gliders and found this:

https://ci.lubbock.tx.us/storage/images/nblcRNAqT6nI81IZjQkS2qrp9gcurPswFOFjOibf.pdf

The Americans used nylon  - (a new material back then) which gave a 25% stretch without breaking and would slowly contract again when strain was released. looks like they towed with a 350` ~100m length.

A fair bit of interesting info in there. it mentioned that the Brits  used hemp, but details were not given.

Edited by se5a
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On 8/17/2018 at 5:27 AM, IgorZ said:

If the part is already designed to hold some max amount of cable, what would be the rationale to reduce it via the editor?

Mass savings. I agree it shouldn’t be more than reasonable but by that same measure it shouldn’t be more than needed either

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@IgorZ I would like to use the RTS-1 as an extension cord to maintain a persistent electrical connection between components on a base. I specifically do not want to deal with EC transfer with the gui. An example use case is stringing up light poles around my base away from structures.To do this the RTS-1 has to be in docked mode. Docked the connection behaves like the old KAS pipes with the RTS-1 exerting physics reactions on connected items. This seems to exacerbate the ground bouncing problem as the connected base spreads over a larger area. 

Is it possible to remove the physics in the connection while docked?  Or, allow EC transfer while undocked without the gui?  Ideally the RTS-1 connection would grow, shrink or rotate as necessary to allow independent motion between connected parts. This would more closely mimic a spring loaded hose real connection.  As a minimum RTS-1 docked connections should behave like the TJ-2 link to at least give some degree of freedom at the connection points.

The closest I can come is to run a TJ-2 link from a build to a ground pylon and connect the ground pylons with RTS-1 hoses. With everything in docked mode this gives a persistent power connection with some freedom of motion between connected parts, it's just really cluttered and uses a lot more parts than it should.

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On 8/19/2018 at 6:59 AM, Drew Kerman said:

Mass savings

Hmm. When I reach the point of using winches, I'm usually not concerned much about 50-100kg of extra mass. It's unlikely the saving will be more than that. What are your calculations? What could be a reasonable part max mass vs it's adjustable minimum mass?

On 8/19/2018 at 12:22 PM, Tonka Crash said:

Docked the connection behaves like the old KAS pipes with the RTS-1 exerting physics reactions on connected items

RTS-1 was designed exactly to not trigger any physical effects. It offers the most flexible joint type in the game - a cable one. If you get a rigid joint on docking, then it's a mods conflict. There are mods out there that try to "reinforce" the stock game joints, and some of that mods do not handle properly the joint type. I'd encourage you to find this mod by excluding the other ones one by one. Once found, we can deal with it by either requesting to fix it or by adjusting KAS (if it's the KAS fault).

On 8/19/2018 at 12:22 PM, Tonka Crash said:

Is it possible to remove the physics in the connection while docked?

Technically - yes. Practically - no. The main idea of KAS 1.0 is physics realism (at the extent it's reasonable).

On 8/19/2018 at 12:22 PM, Tonka Crash said:

Or, allow EC transfer while undocked without the gui?

I'm still thinking about this feature. It may appear in the future versions but there is no final decision yet. There are too many caveats in simulating the natural resources flow in the game. The most challenging issue is the time warp and game save/load. I tried a prototype and figured out that 100% correct simulation is not possible. There are no problems when the vessel is active, but when you switch to Space Center or another vessel out of the distance limit, then the troubles start.

On 8/19/2018 at 12:22 PM, Tonka Crash said:

Ideally the RTS-1 connection would grow, shrink or rotate as necessary to allow independent motion between connected parts

As long as there are no conflicting mods, it's exactly what you get with this part!

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