KSP Caveman Challenge 1.2

[galactictaco]

9 minutes ago, JAFO said:

48 hand-steered kilometers . . . you just qualified for "masochist of the year"..

it wasn't so bad, i mean, it was 2 hours in game, 2 days in real life, but once you get the hang of her she isn't so bad except when trying to go backDOWN the mountain . and it gets rather peaceful,watching kerbin slowly rise as you trundle across the moonscape at evidently like 8 times the rotational speed of the mun.

 

[galactictaco]

well, GT Rover 1 suffered a catastrophic gravity turn on its descent into the midlands crater, proving it is easiest to land within one THEN exit, rather than the other way around.

 

GT Rover 2 (modified with lower blast batteries and the subtraction of the KER electronics relay) launched under a clear sky with minimal cross wind, finally landing successfully (ran out of fuel about 10 meters fro the surface) in a midlands crater in south Northern Basin and traversing approximately 25 kilometers into the lowlands south (at a break neck 10 MPS, doubling the average cruise speed of the GT 1), heading for whatever crater that is down there, however tragically was lost in a chaotic event mission scientists are referring to as 'i hit the quick save button mid explosion'. 

 

http://imgur.com/b5cAL8c

http://imgur.com/lSRiraj

[Leafbaron]

I can't believe how much doing the caveman challenge increased my proficiency and resourcefulness for the game. I'm taking a break between the normal difficulty and the moderate difficulty challenge and playing GPP. Last night I sent a mission to Iato (the closest Moon in GPP). i forgot solar panels and instead of scrapping the mission I used the ships slightly asymetric thrust to spin the craft retrograde to return to kerbin as well as Bob's EVA thrust. Mission was a success. Next mission I was doing LGO rescues and came in a little hot and blew up the rocket motor leaving my rescue ship stranded in orbit. Well i got out and pushed it home. All these things i wouldve never thought to do before the caveman challenge where things mission profile changes such as these are mandatory. Getting stoke to do the Moderate Challenge. 

[JAFO]

5 hours ago, Leafbaron said:

I can't believe how much doing the caveman challenge increased my proficiency and resourcefulness for the game.

...

All these things i wouldve never thought to do before the caveman challenge where things mission profile changes such as these are mandatory.

Now you're beginning to see why many of us who've already completed the challenge continue to take it on again and again.. the restrictions push you to the limits of your ingenuity, and make you a much better KSP player overall.

[Mattasmack]

On 1/30/2017 at 10:54 PM, galactictaco said:

well, GT Rover 1 suffered a catastrophic gravity turn on its descent into the midlands crater, proving it is easiest to land within one THEN exit, rather than the other way around.

 

GT Rover 2 (modified with lower blast batteries and the subtraction of the KER electronics relay) launched under a clear sky with minimal cross wind, finally landing successfully (ran out of fuel about 10 meters fro the surface) in a midlands crater in south Northern Basin and traversing approximately 25 kilometers into the lowlands south (at a break neck 10 MPS, doubling the average cruise speed of the GT 1), heading for whatever crater that is down there, however tragically was lost in a chaotic event mission scientists are referring to as 'i hit the quick save button mid explosion'. 

 

http://imgur.com/b5cAL8c

http://imgur.com/lSRiraj

That rover design is wonderful!  And my hat is off to you for driving them so far.  I used rovers in a couple of my Caveman runs, and I never really want to do that again.

[galactictaco]

On 2/1/2017 at 1:58 PM, Mattasmack said:

I used rovers in a couple of my Caveman runs, and I never really want to do that again.

oh it was the most fun I've had. especially on caveman, since orbiting a body is pretty boring, I'm considering a mock up for a jool mission or eeloo flyby, but they feel hollow since they won't likely succeed without real antennae and bigger solar panels. so I've been holding off. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by galactictaco

[JAFO]

I'm currently most of the way through my KSP1.2 Moderate difficulty entry for the challenge (just 4 nodes left to unlock after the mission I'm about to describe), but I just had to post this now.. last night I finally pulled off a mission I've been wanting to achieve ever since I completed my first Caveman Challenge something like a year ago.

To give some background, I've always been somewhat in awe of the Cavemen who do lawn assemblies.. building a craft with higher part-counts and mass than is possible with the basic VAB/launchpad, by manually assembling it a section at a time, out on the KSC grounds. They launch bigger, higher part-count, heavier payloads to orbit than anything a regular Caveman can do, and then fly them out even to the outer planets. It's something I want to try at some point.. but not yet. I had a different approach in mind.

And I wanted to do something that, to my knowledge, no other Caveman has done.

I've never been a big fan of transmitting data back to Kerbin.. I'd much rather return the raw physical data, and get the extra benefit of the maximum points available.

So what I wanted to do was land a probe on the Mun, and fly the data back to Kerbin. And it had to include a Materials Bay. I wanted the juicy science points that thing gave. And I wanted to do it using a lander assembled by docking sections together in orbit. My first attempts, a year ago, did not go well. Only after (with considerable pain) docking a couple of sections together did I discover that fuel-transfer is not an option for Cavemen.. that tech only becomes available after upgrading the R&D buildings. Clearly, this was going to be a lot more difficult than I'd anticipated.

The dream sat on the back-burner until recently, when the introduction of the Science Container in 1.2 gave me cause to reconsider the concept.

Orbital assembly presents some interesting challenges that lawn-assembly doesn't face. To begin with, there's the lack of patched conics and manoeuvre nodes to complicate matters. And at best, it's only possible to get a few tonnes of payload to orbit at a time. So a sub-assembly is very limited in what it can carry, if it has to carry useful amounts of delta-V as well. If at all possible, none of that payload delta-V should be expended in getting to orbit. Ideally, none of it should be used when rendezvousing and docking with the other sub-assemblies. Sometimes one is forced to choose either function or thrust for a particular sub-assembly, because having both together simply isn't feasible. Launch aerodynamics for each sub-assembly becomes a serious consideration too. Building a practical, useful craft given these constraints is not easy.

But over the last week, it all came together. I wanted a squat, wide-based lander if at all possible, but tests proved that without fairings (which I hadn't yet unlocked), this just wasn't going to be possible. No matter how hard I tried, the induced drag on launch prevented any of my designs from reaching orbit. Instead, I had to come up with a taller, more narrow design, that still had as low a COM as possible.After a number of re-designs, this is what I came up with:

 

Atop the Lander Stage sits the Science Instrument Package (SIP), and atop that sits the Data Return Stage (DRS). Each section is coupled together by a pair of Docking Port Jrs. All told, there are 39 parts, with a combined mass of 2.65 tonnes.

And, of course, this is just the lander.. there would need to be a transfer stage as well.. so all told, I'd need four launches, and three rendezvous & docking manoeuvres to pull it off.. During the course of this mission my ability to perform rendezvous and docking manoeuvres without manoeuvre nodes or patched conics has considerably improved .. I'm starting to develop a good feel for setting up intercepts by eye, with minimal fuel used.

For the first time since I started playing KSP, I dug out my scientific calculator and began calculating delta-V by hand. There were three powered sections of the craft, each of which absolutely needed sufficient delta-V to complete its assigned role. And the margins were pretty tight.. the only stage with much spare capacity was the Lander itself. As it happened, this extra capacity was crucial to the success of the mission.

The DRS was first to launch, and the SIP soon followed it. The Lander Stage, being mostly fuel, was fairly heavy, and although I got it to orbit, the booster that got it there was almost empty on arrival. This had been discovered during testing, of course, so it was planned to dock the Munar Transfer Stage to it first, before rendezvousing and docking both together, to the SIP and DRS. The Transfer Stage had, I believed, sufficient delta-V for its task.. what I hadn't counted on was that almost 30% of its fuel would be needed to reach a stable orbit. You guessed it.. this was the only section that hadn't undergone considerable testing beforehand. But it was the biggest payload I could put in orbit.. it would have to do.

And it did.. but only just. When the transfer burn was complete, the tank was almost dry. The Lander Stage carried almost 3 times the theoretical delta-V needed to land on the Mun, so it would have to handle Munar Orbital Insertion itself.. with luck, there'd be enough left over to give a nice boost to the DRS when it came time to depart.

Making a successful soft landing on the Mun was a challenge.. I've never been particularly good at landing small probes. Crewed landers are easy, but small probes are very touchy, and can't cope with much lateral drift on touchdown. Most of my probes fall over on landing. This mission was no exception. It took three attempts at making a landing that stayed upright. And the winning attempt was on a 10° slope. Right at the limits of stability. If I turned the SAS off, it very slowly tried to fall over.

 

I took my science readings, dumped the data into the Science Container, and used the remaining lander fuel to boost off the surface, heading directly for an escape burn, rather than wasting fuel on achieving orbit first. The landing site had been carefully selected with this strategy in mind.. it was perfectly positioned for a direct escape burn.

When the fuel was spent, I jettisoned the Lander and SIP, and fired up the three LV-1 Ant engines until escape velocity had been reached. A quick calculation showed there was just 600m/s of delta-V remaining, so entering a stable orbit around Kerbin before re-entry was out of the question. I would have to hit the atmosphere at around 3km/s, so the remaining fuel would be used in a braking burn when I got close to my chosen periapsis of 43km. It proved to be a very flat re-entry profile, and things were pretty hot for a long time.. I was glad I'd decided not to jettison the engines too soon.. they soaked up a lot of excess heat. I was glad of that braking fuel I kept, as well.. thanks to a crossflow oversight, my first re-entry attempt hadn't had that fuel available, and the DRS burned up shortly after hitting atmosphere (to be fair, that attempt had a much steeper re-entry profile, too.. it may have just gone too deep, too quickly).

All told, with milestone bonuses on top of contractual bonuses, I picked up 259 science points for the mission.. I was so stoked at finally achieving my dream that even though I went to bed almost immediately (it was 12.30am, and I had to be up for work at 6.30am), I didn't sleep a wink the rest of the night.

The full album of the mission, with 38 pictures, can be seen here.

Since I believe this meets the requirement of "achievements above and beyond the call of a KSP caveman" I'd like to submit this flight as my official entry for the Caveman Challenge Order of the Troglodyte award.

Edited February 6, 2017 by JAFO

[IncongruousGoat]

Hello all. I've got a Normal mode submission... with a bit of a twist. I did the challenge without ever science farming the KSC or Kerbin, and, more interestingly, without ever entering Minmus's SOI.

This involved a number of visits to the Mun, including what I think is a Caveman first: an (unmanned), one-launch Mun lander capable of returning temperature, pressure, goo, and materials bay science from the surface of the Mun.

Album here: http://imgur.com/a/x9TZE

I'm going to use this save to start some work on the green monoliths. We'll see just how well all that goes.

[JAFO]

14 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

This involved a number of visits to the Mun, including what I think is a Caveman first: an (unmanned), one-launch Mun lander capable of returning temperature, pressure, goo, and materials bay science from the surface of the Mun.

Album here: http://imgur.com/a/x9TZE

Now that's impressive.. I'm dying to know how you soft-landed that thing on the Mun without a tank & engine under it!

[IncongruousGoat]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

Now that's impressive.. I'm dying to know how you soft-landed that thing on the Mun without a tank & engine under it!

Thanks! There was an engine and a tank under there. However, I clipped the tank into the materials bay and the engine into the tank so that I would be able to land the thing and not have it tip over, even without landing legs. There weren't landing legs since I had to trim this thing like mad for delta-V after my first attempt slammed into the surface of the Mun at 200 m/s. The return stage was actually nearly half empty, and missing almost all its ablator, simply to conserve weight. The comms network was also part of this, swapping a heavy relay antenna for a much lighter one.

Even with all this, it was an accident waiting to happen. My second landing attempt resulted in an unrecoverable tip-over, and the third and fourth were near things. The thing doesn't actually sit straight due to the engine.

In other words, it was a quintessentially caveman mission.

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Thanks! There was an engine and a tank under there. However, I clipped the tank into the materials bay and the engine into the tank so that I would be able to land the thing and not have it tip over, even without landing legs. There weren't landing legs since I had to trim this thing like mad for delta-V after my first attempt slammed into the surface of the Mun at 200 m/s. The return stage was actually nearly half empty, and missing almost all its ablator, simply to conserve weight. The comms network was also part of this, swapping a heavy relay antenna for a much lighter one.

Heh.. sounds not unlike the Mun lander I posted above.. batteries, reaction wheels and probes clipped into each stage, in an effort to keep COM manageable.

I'm still working on a multi-launch design that can get a Kerbal to the surface of the Mun and home again.. haven't succeeded yet.

[xendelaar]

6 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Hello all. I've got a Normal mode submission... with a bit of a twist. I did the challenge without ever science farming the KSC or Kerbin, and, more interestingly, without ever entering Minmus's SOI.

This involved a number of visits to the Mun, including what I think is a Caveman first: an (unmanned), one-launch Mun lander capable of returning temperature, pressure, goo, and materials bay science from the surface of the Mun.

Album here: http://imgur.com/a/x9TZE

 

Very interesting rules you set for yourself during this challenge. It must have been frustrating at some moments hehe.

[IncongruousGoat]

7 hours ago, xendelaar said:

Very interesting rules you set for yourself during this challenge. It must have been frustrating at some moments hehe.

The landings were, I can tell you that. I seem to remember someone said somewhere in this thread (or a past iteration) that the only reasonable way to finish the challenge is to visit Minmus. Someone then replied that you could science-farm Kerbin, too. I guess I just wanted to point out that the Mun is a perfectly viable, if difficult, option.

[Cunjo Carl]

I finally went and became a caveman! The twist on my entry was going to be how quickly I got it done, but the final reentry was a bit more of a doozy than I was anticipating. All told it took 4 hours, which sounds pretty reasonable. Learned quite a bit and had a good time at it!

The first 3 launches will be no surprise for the Caveman challenge, they consisted of hopping off the launchpad in various directions while accruing mystery-goo, temp+pres, and mat-bay data in turn.

The 4th launch brought 3 materials bays and 4 mystery goos to high kerbal orbit.

And the 5th launch brought a kerballed rocket car to Minmus to check the temperature and pressure along a lucrative seam of 5 biomes. I missed the high Minmus science and (through miscalculation) thought I needed it, so I dropped by low/high Mun space before returning to Kerbin. What I wasn't counting on was how much electricity it took to keep the craft pointing in the right direction to successfully aerobrake! I actually had to reload a half-dozen times to find the right profile for decent. Got there in the end, though!

 

Minmus was fun, but next time I'm goin' to Gilly!

Edited March 3, 2017 by Cunjo Carl

[JAFO]

Nice work there, @Cunjo Carl.

Unfortunately, as can be seen in the screenshots, you have both Kerbal Engineer and Hyperedit installed.. under the rules, either of those mods on their own would be enough to disqualify your entry.

I'd suggest trying it again, without the mods.

[Cunjo Carl]

1 minute ago, JAFO said:

Nice work there, @Cunjo Carl.

Unfortunately, as can be seen in the screenshots, you have both Kerbal Engineer and Hyperedit installed.. under the rules, either of those mods on their own would be enough to disqualify your entry.

I'd suggest trying it again, without the mods.

Oh, I can give my word that neither mod was used in the course of the challenge. I had them on for two other projects I had going on (linked below). Game to still call it a clean run?

Also, the rules say stock parts, and no gameplay altering mods (ie info mods ok). What's up?

 

[JAFO]

24 minutes ago, Cunjo Carl said:

Oh, I can give my word that neither mod was used in the course of the challenge. I had them on for two other projects I had going on (linked below). Game to still call it a clean run?

Well.. it's not really my call as to whether or not to call it a clean run. I was simply pointing out what I'm pretty sure @MoeslyArmlis and @GoSlash27 will tell you next time they're here.

24 minutes ago, Cunjo Carl said:

Also, the rules say stock parts, and no gameplay altering mods (ie info mods ok). What's up?

The wording of the rules are, unfortunately, a little vague in places.. but if you read through the posts in the three Caveman Challenge threads, you'll see it very clearly stated, on numerous occasions, that information mods are not ok, in that they provide the player with information which the stock game doesn't supply. Anything that can/does make the challenge easier in any way, for instance even by simply providing you with Delta-V information, is not permitted. The reasons for not permitting Hyperedit should be pretty obvious.

(Calculating your craft's DV manually by means of the Rocket Equation, however, is perfectly acceptable)

Edited March 3, 2017 by JAFO

[Cunjo Carl]

1 minute ago, JAFO said:

Well.. it's not really my call as to whether or not to call it a clean run. I was simply pointing out what I'm pretty sure @MoeslyArmlis and @GoSlash27 will tell you next time they're here.

The wording of the rules are, unfortunately, a little vague in places.. but if you read through the posts in the three Caveman Challenge threads, you'll see it very clearly stated that information mods are not ok, in that they provide the player with information which the stock game doesn't supply. Anything that can/does make the challenge easier in any way, for instance even by simply providing you with Delta-V information, is not permitted. The reasons for not permitting Hyperedit should be pretty obvious.

Ah, my mistake. Sounded like you were the host. I'll admit I haven't read through the three threads, just checked in on the latest couple from time to time, and read the rules on this one and the verbiage seems pretty clear otherwise I would have restarted KSP before starting. Thanks for the heads up, I guess we'll keep an ear out.

[JAFO]

16 minutes ago, Cunjo Carl said:

Ah, my mistake. Sounded like you were the host. I'll admit I haven't read through the three threads, just checked in on the latest couple from time to time, and read the rules on this one and the verbiage seems pretty clear otherwise I would have restarted KSP before starting. Thanks for the heads up, I guess we'll keep an ear out.

Heh.. no, I was just responding to you as the hosts aren't in this thread very often, of late.. and I'd hate for you to only hear of this weeks down the track.

For the record, I'm very impressed with your Minmus Rover.. it would never have occurred to me to re-enter the whole darn thing. I will have to give that a shot myself.

[Cunjo Carl]

@JAFO, Thanks for keeping an eye on the thread then! I've seen you around a lot recently with helpful commentary. Well, if you're game to try reentering without a heat shield, the trick is to bring back a few empty fuel tanks and pitch it like a / frontslash / (exactly the opposite of the picture) and use the body lift to keep from plunging too deep too soon. It takes a lot out of your batteries if you're using reaction wheels, but the reduced mass can often buy you a few hundred m/s for your mission.

I appreciate the for-warning by the way. Knowing now, if they do decide to nullify the entry a couple weeks down the line, I won't be too crestfallen. I'm happy with those missions- they were silly and gave me something to bounce my head against for an evening.

Anyways, see you around!

[GoSlash27]

@Cunjo Carl and @JAFO,

 It has always been my position that such decisions should be left up to the clan, since we are all equals here. I personally have no problem with entrants having informational mods *so long as* they are not used to assist the challenge, and have taken people's word for it in the past. All of this is on the honor system, since there's no way to verify.

 Having said that... You might want to do another run on a clean install just to eliminate any doubt. I definitely prefer that such mods not be installed on caveman runs so that there are no questions.

 All of this is just my personal opinion. @MoeslyArmlis administers the challenge now, so it's up to him.

 Keep on bangin' those rocks together guys!
-Slashy

[galactictaco]

so i am back with my official submission,without kerbal engineer. i documented my final mission (the previous ones being the generic kill-me-not design, along with a 75% successful small plane for highland exploration) in which a redesigned GT-Rover landed in the southwest (?) crater, set off for the canyons before hanging a hard right up into the midlands.

http://imgur.com/LwfJxry

http://imgur.com/ed91B0B

http://imgur.com/TR1UYMc

http://imgur.com/QYqK7Ab

http://imgur.com/AN0L216

 

im gonna try for a interplanetary mission next, for S's and G's

 

edit: def not going interplanetary, those antennae lose contact before I'm half way to dun.maybe if i used like 8 of them?

Edited March 10, 2017 by galactictaco

[GoSlash27]

13 hours ago, galactictaco said:

edit: def not going interplanetary, those antennae lose contact before I'm half way to dun.maybe if i used like 8 of them?

galactictaco,

 Yeah... interplanetary is out unless you go manned. Caveman communication tech simply isn't up to the task. We have had successful manned expeditions in the past and I assume it's still feasible.

Best,
-Slashy

[galactictaco]

13 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

 We have had successful manned expeditions in the past and I assume it's still feasible.

 

it should be, at least orbiting the sun. people got proper flybys of duna and eve? with returns? impressive. id have to break the rules and reinstall KE to play with it before i had any confidence sending that mission.

edit: i suppose it would be easy if you didnt care about time...i cant stand waiting for minutes of time warp as my kerbal flies around the sun 8 or 9 times waiting for kerbin to be in the right position 

 

the hi-gain antennae say they can be used for relays but my satellite attempts don't seem to function at all, maybe I'm using them wrong. i crammed 11 of them onto 2 satellites, one low and the other half way out to the mun but my second interplanetary attempt still wouldn't connect anything other than ground stations

Edited March 12, 2017 by galactictaco

[GoSlash27]

18 minutes ago, galactictaco said:

it should be, at least orbiting the sun. people got proper flybys of duna and eve? with returns? impressive.

galactictaco,

 IK, R?

 I would never attempt such a thing myself without patched conics and maneuver nodes, but it has been done. There are some serious KSP ninjas around here...

20 minutes ago, galactictaco said:

the hi-gain antennae say they can be used for relays but my satellite attempts don't seem to function at all, maybe I'm using them wrong. i crammed 11 of them onto 2 satellites, one low and the other half way out to the mun but my second interplanetary attempt still wouldn't connect anything other than ground stations

 Yeah, I think that's a lost cause. You need some serious juice to hit Duna or Eve and the available hardware simply doesn't have the range even when spammed.

Best,
-Slashy