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Mk3 SSTO range expectations


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Now that i finally got KER, I decide to actually go and do some SSTO. What is the actual typically range of a well build SSTO with Mk3 parts, carrying about 20t (lab, all science package on a platform, seperate rover, ISRU and Drill)? Can it reach Minmus and back without refueling, or to Duna one-way?

And yes, i want a small separate rover, just to make travel better, not to mention I do not trust landing gear as wheels well enough based on 1.1.3 experience.

EDIT: Re-clarify my title. Mk2 SSTO is easy. It's Mk3 while carrying rover and lab that is a bit more difficult.

Edited by Jestersage
To clairfy so we do not have people answer with mk.2 parts
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8 hours ago, bewing said:

A typical SSTO can barely make it to LKO.

You have to put a lot of care and refining touches on one to get it further. Getting one to Minmus isn't too hard. To Duna takes a very well built SSTO.

Yeah, even getting an SSTO that can reliably make it to LKO and back safely is at least a moderate challenge, especially for one large enough to carry a decent sized payload as well.  It's certainly POSSIBLE to make an SSTO that can go just about anywhere, but it won't be easy.

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Huh. On another thread (interplanetery design) one of the poster stated that he can go to Duna on a Mk3 SSTO with the lab and all the science fixings, and I am double checking on Matt Lowe's Design and val, and they both doesn't have one. I know I am not talking about the Orange Tank, but still....

Edit: Even though he stopped at Ike first, it doesn't change the fact he's going out of LKO.

Edited by Jestersage
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7 minutes ago, Jestersage said:

Huh. On another thread (interplanetery design) one of the poster stated that he can go to Duna on a Mk3 SSTO with labs and all th4e science fixing. I know I am not talking about the Orange Tank, but still....

Again, it's certainly POSSIBLE, but very difficult and will take a lot of work perfecting the design to be able to do that.  Or the other option would be that if you already have an SSTO that can make it to LKO with the desired payload, just do that, then launch a second one but replace the payload in that one with an extra fuel tank and use it to refuel the first one.  Once you're in LKO, it doesn't take THAT much more dV to go the rest of the way.

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I can get a mining equiped SSTO with all the small science in MK2. Everything that can fit into the smallest MK2 cargo bay, but packed pretty tightly, can become an SSTA and make it to Eeloo without refueling. 8) It's possible. I've not done large loads though. Mine carries about 5tons at most. One way to ensure you can get to minimus to mine is to use a higher thrust SSTO that can get off kerbin fast so it has more fuel and hence more delta V upon reaching LKO. The longer you take to reach LKO the more fuel and the less DeltaV you have to reach a destination. So make one base on the desired tonnage then increase the Thurst to weight enough to get into space conveniently without alot of bobbing and weaving. I don't do any dips in mine to get into orbit. I simply point up and then nose down and get to as high a speed as possible before punching up to 70k apoapsis.

Easiest designs use Rapiers and mine uses nukes with the rapiers. This gives the best speed in air and in space. The only thing you loose with higher thrust sstos is a little delta v total. but you can gain huge ammounts of delta V from this for when you reach LKO because you made it 2-5 times faster into orbit. My MK2 version has 6Rapiers and 6xNukes. I don't know if it's the most efficient one but I can get to laythe on a straight shoot and possibly Eeloo if I use Jool or something as a gravity assist. All without mining. If I want to go to moho I only need to stop at minimus first and I can get straight to moho or anywhere without gravity assists.

My best SSTO atm can get to LKO with 3800DeltaV to spare(5700+maxhypothetically). Aim for high thrust and whatever deltaV in orbit then check to see how much deltaV you can get after mining to reach destination. The more you can get the more convenient the trips as you will not need to refuel as much.

If you are having to dive your nose to get speed your thrust is too low for convenient load carrying in an SSTO(At least in my opinion). Go for something stronger so you use less fuel over time. Easier to figure out also as there are less possible mistakes. Like I said, you may loose 200 delta V overall from more thrust but you can get to orbit 2 times faster and save a ton of fuel giving you 2x the DeltaV once in orbit to get somewhere. Going all the way to the edge of the solar system on a trip in one run is a lot nicer than having to refuel 5 times. Unless of course you need to stop at those locations anyway.....

Here is my Starfighter SSTO:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdxixytb1hwyor0/IDGAD Starfighter 2_7_7 Autostrut.craft?dl=0

4 crew and about 5 tons. It's an exploration vehicle for initial scanning and whatnot of planets. Or a nice luxury trip for 4 to wherever.

photo IDGADStarfigher2.7.7_zpsap0veszg.png

Or secret defense force for the alien inva..... Nvm.

Edited by Arugela
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Make sure you make all external parts have 2400+ heat resistance if possible. It lets you burn through the atmosphere and pick up a lot more speeds on the way up. The closer you get to the 2400 velocity to make it into orbit before reaching 30k+ the easier it is to circularize and get into orbit with as much fuel as possible(Usually between 1250-1700m/s). I've made this mistake alot! 8)

The hotter you can get your plane and faster without exploding stuff the better btw! 8d You want to screech across the sky like a phoenix risen as you ascent into space! ;D

I saw some good parts like with like 2600 and 2900 heat tolerance that can go on the tip of planes. I think it was the Shielded docking port and the 1.25 service bay. They can take a lot of heat and are good for your nose. The MK3 cargo ramp and stuff have good values too. They would make great noses.

Edited by Arugela
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I haven't done a lot of MK3 ones yet. But I think they are easier to carry at that stage.

People were telling me that the better drill can't be hidden in the cargo bay though. Unless it was just the MK2 cargo bay... It may be a drag issue. I'm not sure what the technical issues are. I'm also not sure how much it takes to power a regular ISRU with a jr drill. But they are light. You might just need alot of generators to power them. And you need to set them up in a way where they are either mining an asteroid or where you can put your belly down or something creative to mine with them. They do receive the benefits of an engineer to run better now. The Jr. Drill used to not get that bonus.

I'm not sure of all the issues with MK3.

I do know that lift can be an issue. So either know how to make something as agile as the shuttle fly or get good wing surfaces or designs somehow. If it doesn't need to land on planets with air or some atmosphere the wings are extra weight. And asteroid mining is always possible. It's a matter of reaching them more than likely. I'm not sure where to get asteroids besides the belt and dres though. Mining both surface and asteroids could be a way to go with MK3..

Edited by Arugela
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The problem I find with large sstos is that you end up needing secondary propulsion to vtol it down as landing on your tail usually has disasterous results or even if you do land how do you get back up with just horizontal thrust.

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Hey, this question is derived from my other thread on interplanetery, and everyone end up stating about SSTO.

That's one thing I notice about: helps, be it from gamers or Microsoft: the answer is always never direct answer. If people want a big f** ass mothership, carrying a lab and extra rover, instead of a SSTO and use that as a rover, you answer about that mothership instead of saying why SSTO build on Mk2 is better.

Good thing we have Nixon to nix our SSTO IRL and give us an actual useful Shuttle with big carrying capacity.

Edited by Jestersage
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8 hours ago, Bdyer said:

The problem I find with large sstos is that you end up needing secondary propulsion to vtol it down as landing on your tail usually has disasterous results or even if you do land how do you get back up with just horizontal thrust.

Yes, but you can put that in Mk2 bomb bays.

Here is something you'd maybe like:

 

Edited by Chris_2
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3 hours ago, Jarin said:

Is... is that a pair of Junos on that thing?

Yes that is a pair of Junos. It was more useful when the plane was lighter. It's still useful if you land on laythe and need to propel youself on the water a short distance... it takes a while though. but it uses the fuel up more slowly and you can get to shore in emergencies.

 

Yes MK3 is good for larger craft. I was just giving an example of an MK2 because it has range and I don't have a good MK3 atm.

Edited by Arugela
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Honestly I'm not a fan of the mk3 look, if I want to build big I use the mark iv mod for fuselage.  It looks so much better.  And you get lift out of it.

 

and honestly I'm loving my mk2 right now.  I havnt unlocked the mining yet in my career so I can't go everywhere, however 6,900 dv in LKO means I can go mostly to any planet. I just hve difficultly getting back :0.  I have been to gilly and Ike and back but it was close. 51 tons full and 16 tons empty not sure if I could push it much farther without mining.

Edited by Bdyer
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1 hour ago, Bdyer said:

Honestly I'm not a fan of the mk3 look, if I want to build big I use the mark iv mod for fuselage.  It looks so much better.  And you get lift out of it.

You also get lift out of mk3 spaceplane parts, as long as they have an angle of incidence. That gets me to this point:

On 11/1/2016 at 8:19 AM, bewing said:

A typical SSTO can barely make it to LKO.

You have to put a lot of care and refining touches on one to get it further. Getting one to Minmus isn't too hard. To Duna takes a very well built SSTO.

Yes. It's all about tweaking, tinkering, and then some more tweaking and refining. My single-stage-to-anywhere spaceplane took me in total maybe 100-hours of building and trying out and learning (over a long period of time, since the first plane parts were introduced in KSP years ago). Basically you need to understand every last bit of http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/131877-121-on-the-particulars-of-center-of-lift-and-center-of-mass-on-winged-craft/

Especially how you can reduce drag by changing the angle of incidence of wings. And then it's all about a lot of refining the wing design. Basically the design process looks like this: reduce-drag  -> add more fuel -> reduce-drag some more -> add more fuel -> repeat 100 times. So you'll make the plane heavier and heavier (more fuel) while still being able to break the sound-barrier and get to 1400m/s airbreathing on the same number of rapier-engines. And then you'll minimize the amount of oxygen (trade it for liquid fuel) while still being able to get to orbit on your low thrust/weight Nerva. Then you'll end up with a good mass fraction (fraction of liquid fuel compared to dry weight) in orbit, and that's the key to getting a good range out of your spaceplane.

Edited by Chris_2
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2 hours ago, Bdyer said:

Honestly I'm not a fan of the mk3 look, if I want to build big I use the mark iv mod for fuselage.  It looks so much better.  And you get lift out of it.

Yes, except Mk IV is a mod. I am a stock only player, using KER at most. But in terms of looks? I agree.

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