KSP Weekly: That Pale Blue Dot

[Vanamonde]

Redneck, your posts were not edited or removed. You expressed concern that some others' were, and we explained that it was for insulting behavior rather than because they were critical of Squad. We do not censor people for criticizing Squad. You are objecting to something which has not happened, and derailing the thread, since this thread is not about forum moderation. Please let it go now. 

[passinglurker]

Just now, HoloYolo said:

The writing was on the wall when it was announced he was leaving along with the other 7.

It still tells us nothing about the fate of the work already done. Whether it would be continued as porkjet designed it, taken in a different direction possibly with inspiration from porkjets work, or just dropped entirely in favor of barb and twineing old assets to be used till the end of time. These are things we want to know we want it said clearly and plainly with words that we can quote, encourage, or object to as we see fit. Instead of vague implying, and dodging until the deed is done and its to late to say anything.

[Redneck]

17 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Redneck, your posts were not edited or removed. You expressed concern that some others' were, and we explained that it was for insulting behavior rather than because they were critical of Squad. We do not censor people for criticizing Squad. You are objecting to something which has not happened, and derailing the thread, since this thread is not about forum moderation. Please let it go now. 

And I thank you for that and I am done. And I know you guys are just doing your job I get that.

[HoloYolo]

35 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

It still tells us nothing about the fate of the work already done. Whether it would be continued as porkjet designed it, taken in a different direction possibly with inspiration from porkjets work, or just dropped entirely in favor of barb and twineing old assets to be used till the end of time. These are things we want to know we want it said clearly and plainly with words that we can quote, encourage, or object to as we see fit. Instead of vague implying, and dodging until the deed is done and its to late to say anything.

They most likely dropped it and just decided to use what they have. Or it seems like it.

[legoclone09]

3 hours ago, passinglurker said:

anyone else miss when the devs would pen thier own bits for the devnote instead of passing it through the PR department where a lot of the crunchy bits get lost in interpretation?

I believe @Badie said they would be doing that once it got settled down a little more or something, since I really miss that as well.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

32 minutes ago, HoloYolo said:

Porkjet left and with him took whatever hopes there were for revamped parts.

This is such an odd sentiment to me, having lived in the CG world for a few years- mechanical modeling is pretty straightforward, the designs are there, they already have a highly competent CG artist in @RoverDude as well as the option to pull from this community, let alone the rest of the world http://forums.cgsociety.org/

https://blenderartists.org/forum/index.php

I don't see doom and gloom at all on that front, I think it'll happen eventually.

[HoloYolo]

2 minutes ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

This is such an odd sentiment to me, having lived in the CG world for a few years- mechanical modeling is pretty straightforward, the designs are there, they already have a highly competent CG artist in @RoverDude as well as the option to pull from this community, let alone the rest of the world http://forums.cgsociety.org/

https://blenderartists.org/forum/index.php

I don't see doom and gloom at all on that front, I think it'll happen eventually.

Just doesn't seem like they're even working on it anymore, even with RoverDude

[passinglurker]

14 minutes ago, HoloYolo said:

They most likely dropped it and just decided to use what they have. Or it seems like it.

I'm not looking for assumptions I'm looking for answers and no one should be satisfied with less

13 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

I believe @Badie said they would be doing that once it got settled down a little more or something, since I really miss that as well.

then @Badie can put it into a devnote or write an announcement post addressing it. Really they need to tell us what they are doing about the old art assets, or explain plainly and in detail why they can not tell us because we can't just leave this to vague "we're making plaAaAaAans! hush hush you'll love it when we finally reveal our plaAaAaAans!" because the last time squad acted all teasing and hush hush you know what they were hiding? it was the negotiations for the console ports, and just look how well that turned out...

Edited November 13, 2016 by passinglurker

[Raptor9]

Normally, I don't like interjecting into heated forum debates, but I feel like I need to balance the mood a little.  First off, I too am keenly interested in what the future of KSP holds.  This includes not only the possibility of the rocket part revamp that Porkjet started, but also some of the future additions/updates that may come in the future.  However, no official announcement has been made that features X, Y or Z will or will not be in a future update.  Until that time I'll remain optimistic that something cool is on the horizon, even though it may not be what I expect or am hoping for.

Second, ever since version 0.23 or 0.24, each KSP update has been exponentially bigger and more massive, and touching a larger swath of game code.  After each of these updates, it was rather commonplace for the Devnotes to be fairly sparse and of little substance for several weeks, simply because there was nothing significant to report.  The team was either taking time off (they are people too), working on post-release bug-fixing patches (which is very common after large updates to software), or evaluating/planning what their next goals and roadmap of development was going to be for the next update.

Third, I trust that the discontent within forum posts are from a vocal minority of the player base.  I suspect that the majority of players are too busy playing KSP and enjoying it.  In my line of work, you generally only hear from customers when they have an issue.  If everything is jim-dandy, they're silent.  I'm pointing this out in the hope that any of the KSP devs won't be discouraged by the negative tone of some forum replies.  I remember a relatively recent turn of events in which the administrator of KerbalStuff (an unofficial, but popular, mod-hosting site) simply shut his site down after he became disheartened from what seemed like a steady stream of negative comments and complaints about the site; he decided it wasn't worth the grief and simply closed up shop.

I will speak for myself in the fact that I have enjoyed countless (and by countless, I mean an obscenely large amount) hours of KSP play over the past four years of development.  Dollar for dollar, it is the best PC entertainment software I purchased.  I can't imagine the efforts that went into bringing it to this point, but let's please remember that the developers are still people, and not robots.  The KSP devs have also been the most communicative game development team I've experienced, so let's not bite the hand that feeds us.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Raptor9

[Codraroll]

11 hours ago, HoloYolo said:

They most likely dropped it and just decided to use what they have. Or it seems like it.

That's the key phrase here. We don't know what happened to the Porkjet parts. All we can do is make baseless assumptions based on the lack of information we've got. When people don't get information, they tend to assume, and when people assume, then tend to assume the worst. And when consumers assume the worst about a product, its reputation will be harmed. They say all PR is good PR, but it works the other way too: No PR is bad PR.

Squad hasn't really said anything that should give players cause for concern. Devs leaving, Porkjet parts, console versions... they haven't said anything alarming about either issue. What makes us concerned is the lack of information. Or, let me try again: Because players miss information about certain issues, they have become vocal about these issues, and the "worst assumptions" mentioned above have become central to the discussion, because those, call them rants, are the only statements with concrete points we can discuss. The lack of official information creates a void it's up to the fans to fill, and we fill it with negativity because this is the Internet. As stated by Raptor9 above, people generally only become vocal about a software product if they have issues with it, so those with issues are the ones to start discussions.

So the discussions filled with negativity are allowed to fester, and devnote after devnote comes out, where Squad seems to refuse to address the issues. Their statements weigh heavy in the discussions, and would probably add balance to them (see: Roverdude's excellent work of bringing facts into the Great Developer Exodus debate), but when Squad stays silent, the premises for discussion stay in the hands of the vocal and dissatisfied fans.

 

So here we are, and the prevailing views seem to be that console players are screwed over, that Porkjet's work was for nought, and that Squad's plans for the future focus on expanded marketing of the product they have right now, rather than improving the product. Squad themselves haven't planted these ideas, but they sure haven't done much to refute them either. And since those ideas are, again, prevailing, they will become the basis of every discussion on either issue. Until further news is given from official sources, this is the situation Squad has to live with. And it does deteriorate the community, that can't be helped - unless, of course, the issues are addressed in a concrete, detailed and factual manner from official sources.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Codraroll

[klgraham1013]

On 11/13/2016 at 0:55 AM, Galileo said:

Will this issue, that destroys rovers, be fixed in the future? Although my screenshots are not of the stock variety, this is an issue in the stock game as well.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Why, Squad?  Why!?  I just want to drive things, and it's been so long since I've been able to do so with confidence!

 

18 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

There's a revolt now?

Riots are all the rage now.  Join your local riot party today.

On 11/11/2016 at 6:22 PM, SQUAD said:

Rob lives in the UK with his wife, 2 boys, and a dog (Stan-Lee). Robbonaut has been in the Games Industry 14 years primarily as a Designer but he has dabbled in many aspects of game development over the years. Rob recently worked on Carmageddon: Reincarnation and the digital versions of Magic the Gathering. Going back a few years, some of his other titles include Burnout 3, Sid Meier’s Pirates!, Pursuit Force: Extreme Justice, Motorstorm: Arctic Edge, and Little Deviants.

Experience!  Nice!  I welcome you, good sir!

On 11/11/2016 at 6:22 PM, SQUAD said:

this included adding display names for the resources (bonus side effect: LiquidFuel is now Liquid Fuel in all the UIs).

Will there be an easy config edit for beginner modders to easily modify the in game resource names now?

On 11/12/2016 at 3:37 PM, monstah said:

You know it's not Squad's programmers that are working on the console, right? They hired Flying Tiger for that.

...and it should probably be apparent by now that they can't manage the situation and Squad should step in.  The last time I played a game without a working save system was the NES.

Edited November 14, 2016 by klgraham1013

[Red Iron Crown]

48 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

The last time I played a game without a working save system was the NES.

Mine was KSP on PC. Seriously.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Red Iron Crown said:

Mine was KSP on PC. Seriously.

Really? What save issues are you having?

 

[Red Iron Crown]

1 minute ago, Majorjim! said:

Really? What save issues are you having?

 

None now, but when I first started playing KSP it had no save system at all. It wasn't until four months after I started that it was added. Somehow I managed to play a lot of KSP and enjoy it for those four months. 

[Majorjim!]

10 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

let's not bite the hand that feeds us.

I like you dude but that is laughable. We paid them. The main anger is from console players that PAID full price for a game that is genuinely unplayable, from day one and continues to be so..

 KSP is also for me the best value entertainment I have ever had from a game but the console situation is disgusting.

Just now, Red Iron Crown said:

None now, but when I first started playing KSP it had no save system at all. It wasn't until four months after I started that it was added. Somehow I managed to play a lot of KSP and enjoy it for those four months. 

Right ok so when it was sold as WIP, early access. Got ya.

[Terwin]

On 11/12/2016 at 2:40 AM, passinglurker said:

If that's the case they can cut the double speak and come out and say it plainly already. it's been 4 weeks and we still know precious little about squads "future plans" or even the core theme for the 1.3 update despite them telling us that they would make things clear in "coming weeks" weeks ago! How many weeks do they expect to be able to string us along for? The honey moon is over now where are the results!?

And honestly this lack of commitment is absolutely infuriating because the next step in development is so painfully obvious. The last smudge of early access dirt ksp needs to polish off. the art and balance update! They shouldn't need weeks of meetings, tests, assesments, hirings and planning to commit to the rocket revamp because no two ways about it this is what they should be doing if they want to keep this communities support.

I for one am not going to buy any merch or expansions without a clear and genuine promise in writing to make the rocket revamp. Who is with me?

 

On 11/12/2016 at 7:36 AM, Caelib said:

While I do appreciate the update of information, I think it is critical for Squad to provide details of what is coming for the next release.  Given all of the staffing changes, the future of KSP is unknown to the community and interest in the game seems to have diminished quite a bit (the forums and reddit have the lowest activity I've seen since 0.20).

Perhaps they do not know.

How many art projects have you seen where the original artist leaves and another artist picks it up without completely re-working every facet of the old work?

It is pretty uncommon for an art project to be picked up by someone else, and as every artist has a different style, I think we can rest assured that if there is additional art work to be done, it will not look the same as if Porkjet were doing it.

How many major Software improvement projects have you managed where you knew a) how long it would take, b) what features would be included, and c) the bug count was reduced or maintained?  I can guarantee that unless you worked for NASA where millions of dollars are spent on every line of code, that number would be zero.

It is a bad idea for *ANY* software company to announce any new or upcoming features before those features are packaged up and ready for delivery.  If they do, then in short order they will learn the hard way that some problems are unfeasible or down-right impossible, and it is not always easy to tell the difference between those and a '5-minute fix' : http://xkcd.com/1425/

 

On 11/12/2016 at 11:04 AM, Adelaar said:

Given the nature of the above comments, I'd like to leave this here: Obviously a lot of things have changed at KSP HQ, and a lot of people have left. Now, we all know that most companies (and that includes Squad) aren't very open about internal matters, so that we don't hear all that much about that isn't strange either. What Squad needs to do is bring the KSP team up to strength again (which at the moment itobviously isn't) and then start to work on what they think is best for the game, mixed with what the community is best. As of now, this probably isn't possible due to internal problems so give Squad some time, let them do the small bugfixes and other problems first, let them work themselves back to full strength and as a community, let's not moan too much about it. Squad themselves aren't probably reading this, but the dev's (what's left of them) probably are, and they are most like as unhappy (or even unhappier) with the whole thing as we are. So, give them a break, let them recover and when the development ball starts rolling again, let the community requests flood in.

On a side note, it's always good to be critical, and to suggest what you feel is essential, but to bash into Squad's non-communicative nature time and time again is probably not helping.

 

15 hours ago, passinglurker said:

I'm not looking for assumptions I'm looking for answers and no one should be satisfied with less

then @Badie can put it into a devnote or write an announcement post addressing it. Really they need to tell us what they are doing about the old art assets, or explain plainly and in detail why they can not tell us because we can't just leave this to vague "we're making plaAaAaAans! hush hush you'll love it when we finally reveal our plaAaAaAans!" because the last time squad acted all teasing and hush hush you know what they were hiding? it was the negotiations for the console ports, and just look how well that turned out...

A lot of people have grown accustomed to over-sharing on things like facebook and twitter.  For a person, that is their choice and they will need to live with the consequences, for a company, that needs to be a deliberate choice, and usually the potential costs far outweigh the potential benefits.  That is why the more mature a company is, the less outsiders know about the internal workings of that company.  It is a mater of risk management, as sharing the wrong things at the wrong time *will* have serious consequences, be they legal, financial, social, or a combination of all three.

 

I know that as a professional developer, one of the worst things that my employer can do to me is to announce a feature that is not complete that I am responsible for.  At that point, it will be taken as a promise, and if something comes up to make it take longer, make it unfeasible or even impossible, I will still be expected to deliver.  This is the sort of thing that gets systems deployed in an unusable state because it is not practical to do something that was promised, but the managers refuse to go back on the promise.

[adsii1970]

I understand the frustrations of the console players... although I am a PC player. One of the frustrating things is it seems the developers take an ostrich approach to dealing with complaints:

Before I incur the wrath of the forum, let me explain what I mean...

The issue with the wheels in 1.0  through 1.1.3 is probably the best example. At first, we were told there were some slight problems with some of the Unity software, but nothing was specifically listed. After a few hours of the new release, the forum was full of the most obvious complaints - the wheels were borked beyond what anyone expected. Wheels had not been a problem in .90 but were essentially useless in 1.1.3 It was not until the eruption of complaints that Squad came forward and admitted the wheels were an issue, but rather than to explain their plans to handle it, we got the "it's a Unity 5 issue" speech. There were a few modders and Squad staff members (independently of Squad)  that immediately began to fill in the gap left by Squad's seemingly lack of interest in becoming proactive to address the issue. I think of @Azimech, @NathanKell, @Porkjet, @sarbian, and a few others, specifically

Eventually, Squad did come out and give us more than the "Unity Issue" speech and began to explain exactly what was happening, but it was after nearly three weeks of the forums becoming hot enough to melt steel. The wrath of the forum even continued onto Facebook... But by the time Squad came out with the complete explanation and the plan to address the wheel issues, it was too late to quell the hostility of many. It was why the demand for 1.2 to be released, even prematurely, was made by the forum to Squad. This set in motion a few other issues that Squad is now having to address...

There are other examples of this too... the souposphere that existed since 0.18 (and led to the development of some pretty awesome mods such as FAR and NEAR) that compensated nicely for the atmospheric conditions on Kerbin. I remember the forum (pre-2012 purge) where this issue was beaten to death on about four threads and the response was always "It's a Unity issue..." without any further explanation. But to even get that explanation took nearly eight weeks of forum blasts to admit it wasn't quite right.

Squad has always been great at promoting the new and upcoming features in each update they've released. No argument about that. We love the transparency Squad offers when it does come to promoting them. Case in point is @Porkjet's reworked rocket parts. We were told they looked fantastic, we were told they were going to be added to the next update (since 1.1), and then, all of a sudden, "here's the models for the parts so if you want to mod them..." became the only word recently we heard about them. What happened? Did PorkJet leave the team? If so, just tell us he left for personal reasons and leave it at that. We've handled the departure of other programmers and even handled the departure of Harvester, the initial creator of KSP, with understanding. We stood here, ready to support the continued development of Squad - and many of us have been here so long, we considered Squad's staff as a part of our family... 

It's followup has been a little less than stellar. Why not set up some internal guidelines such as when you get a hundred reports of a certain bug, you include it in the weekly devnotes, um KSP Weekly. Even if it is nothing more than "we've recently have become aware of a new bug. Nearly a hundred have reported X. We are now looking into it and will keep you updated about what we discover in our next edition..." Then the next week give additional information, such as "the bug could not be repeated by our staff, so please bear with us...send us your..." or "we are still looking into X and might have a solution by the next update..." This would go far in calming the fears of a number of players concerned that Squad is going to move on to other projects and abandon KSP.

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems that here lately, Squad has become more concerned with plushies than the game that made the demand for plushies even remotely possible. Please bring the focus back to the development of KSP; you've already achieved gaining the loyalty of a lot of us. Thanks for telling us of the continued cleaning of the code as this is the kind of information we do like. Thanks for letting us know of plans to add DLC... but we still have bugs that need to be addressed. You cannot continue to build a skyscraper if its foundation has issues...

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by adsii1970

[mibo22]

Just wanted to take a moment to thank some PC users.  I have been voicing my concern (like many others) about the state of the console release and even more-so the lack of communication about it for quite some time, and until recently have only received "oh, just deal with it and stop bashing Squad" type responses from a number of PC users (NOT all of you, to be clear).  Reading through this thread I saw SEVERAL PC users acknowledging the fact that we console users are not, in fact bashing Squad, but rather voicing our frustration with the lack of communication about it and deserve some answers.  Most of us are not screaming for promises that it will be fixed tomorrow, but rather just a "hey, we are aware of how crappy this is and we are working with Flying Tiger to get it fixed."  To all of those PC users (and all the silent PC users who feel the same way), thank you.  PC users, and console users don't need to be enemies.  We all love this game and just want it to work properly in ALL formats.

[Curveball Anders]

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

What happened? Did PorkJet leave the team? If so, just tell us he left for personal reasons and leave it at that.

They actually did tell us.

In the facts about devs leaving thread.

On 2016-10-06 at 7:27 PM, nestor said:

Fact: Chris (porkjet) left a few weeks ago in a totally unrelated event. He told me he had a new working opportunity. Not sure why he is listed with the rest of the group.

Fact: Sebastian (sarbian) was invited as a temporal dev to help fixing bugs until 1.2 was released

Fact: From the remaining 6 devs (leaving Squad ed's note), 2 were working part time on KSP

[adsii1970]

@Curveball Anders: Yes, but those were told after nearly a month of speculation. It could have been handled better AND would not lead to the various conspiracy theories that some forum users were creating and/or spreading.

The part-timers weren't really an issue. They explained that on Reddit three weeks before Squad even acknowledged it. It was sorta implied that they had completed the ultimate goal - getting 1.2 ready for release. They accomplished that goal, posted they were moving on. At first, it appeared Squad wasn't going to comment on it and rumors circulated about Squad being a hell-hole employer.  Squad finally did mention it, but by that time rumors were already circulating that KSP was finished and Squad was going to move on to other projects...then we get hit with plushie contests... All of these actions compounded the frustrations people had with Squad.

I do not pity the new promotions and community relations team. They've created a quasi-nightmare with all the turn-over, promises that were unfulfilled, etc. My point is they must remain pro-active instead of the current approach...

Edited November 14, 2016 by adsii1970

[Red Shirt]

2 hours ago, Terwin said:

one of the worst things that my employer can do to me is to announce a feature that is not complete that I am responsible for.  At that point, it will be taken as a promise, and if something comes up to make it take longer, make it unfeasible or even impossible, I will still be expected to deliver.

This took me back. The company I used to work for had an office manager that, while much loved and supported by the owners, had no clue what we were doing, He constantly put us in this position by making promises without talking to us first. I use to dream of ways to dispose of the body. 

1 hour ago, mibo22 said:

Most of us are not screaming for promises that it will be fixed tomorrow, but rather just a "hey, we are aware of how crappy this is and we are working with Flying Tiger to get it fixed.

I do not know this for fact. I am only speculating. When a company subs a project out to another entity there are contracts involved. When one party doesn't deliver there are legal ways of dealing with the issues. How many times have you watched a story on the news where those involved were not allowed by their lawyers to discuss what what going on behind the scenes. Maybe, just maybe Squad would love to be more open here but for legal reasons they simply can't. 

I feel your pain. If I were Squad, and I'm obviously not, I would offer the current console owners a free PC copy until a patch is available. That wouldn't be pointing fingers or making console owners feel ignored. Those without a PC would have to continue to wait but at least it would be trying. 

[Ten Key]

On 11/11/2016 at 5:22 PM, SQUAD said:

Like most of you have noticed, our team has been continuously growing and this week we would like to introduce you to our new Game Designer, Rob Shaer (Robbonaut).

Rob lives in the UK with his wife, 2 boys, and a dog (Stan-Lee). Robbonaut has been in the Games Industry 14 years primarily as a Designer but he has dabbled in many aspects of game development over the years. Rob recently worked on Carmageddon: Reincarnation and the digital versions of Magic the Gathering. Going back a few years, some of his other titles include Burnout 3, Sid Meier’s Pirates!, Pursuit Force: Extreme Justice, Motorstorm: Arctic Edge, and Little Deviants.

Well hello there Career Mode. I think you may be getting some much needed attention at some point down the road. 

[legoclone09]

42 minutes ago, Ten Key said:

Well hello there Career Mode. I think you may be getting some much needed attention at some point down the road. 

I hope we get some attention for Career as well! @Robbonaut seems to be his forum account as well.

[mibo22]

1 hour ago, Red Shirt said:

...I would offer the current console owners a free PC copy until a patch is available. That wouldn't be pointing fingers or making console owners feel ignored. Those without a PC would have to continue to wait but at least it would be trying. 

You are not the first to suggest this, and I agree with you completely.  This would relieve A LOT of stress and frustration for console users.  Just being able to save without fear of corrupted data would tide most of us over until the console versions are fixed.  And most people, even console users, have computers as well so, there you go.

     Come on Squad, throw us a ker-bone!

[Curveball Anders]

5 hours ago, Terwin said:

I know that as a professional developer, one of the worst things that my employer can do to me is to announce a feature that is not complete that I am responsible for.

That is on the spot.

I know that situation all too well.

As a professional PL I don't think I've ever had any my devs/contributors agree when I've said "this is good enough, we have to ship it (or the program/project is killed)" 

(Most of them have accepted a beer (or three) once they've been allowed to protest (to no gain)).