İs it so hard to implement assigning crew to command seats in VAB/SPH

[64Bit]

PLEASE

 

[Red Iron Crown]

It is not hard, about a hundred lines of code in a mod for it. I don't think it's a question of difficulty, but desirability. The command chair as a regular pod is fairly overpowered compared to conventional pods, I think it has been left the way it is to discourage exploiting it.

[Matuchkin]

This topic has been discussed to death, and yet, through all the pleading, raging, etc, SQUAD still did not manage to notice that we need the ability to assign crew to EVA seats before launch. Why? This is a joke, right? Multiple people made mods that make up for that, in less than a week. Why can't a large studio do the same when it literally had years to do so?

Personally, I believe that command seats must be fixed before next update. Seriously, this is getting frustrating.

[stibbons]

I can think of at least one game development studio that seems to disagree.

[Matuchkin]

Just now, stibbons said:

I can think of at least one game development studio that seems to disagree.

Is this supposed to be a sarcastic implication?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Matuchkin

[SpacePilotMax]

Maybe they didn't because they don't think it should be in a realistic or semi-realistic game. The only non-abusive use for this that I can see is testing rovers.

[HebaruSan]

You really think it's an error or oversight and not a design decision? The External Command Seat masses 50 kg. The next lightest crewable part is 660 kg. The visible differences justifying that extra mass are a reaction wheel and a small monopropellant tank. If you combine the seat with a stronger reaction wheel and a larger quantity of monopropellant, the total mass is 247 kg (and the cost is 950 funds versus 1500). There has to be a trade-off to justify the remaining 413 kg (and 550 funds), and one plausible choice is the ability to hold a crew member during a launch.

Yes, we all know it's easy to circumvent, and that if you do so, the crew member survives. Still, having to so is itself a reminder that a thorny craft design choice has been circumvented.

EDIT: I forgot the battery; for completeness, that brings it to 252 kg and 1030 funds, so not a significant difference.

Edited November 15, 2016 by HebaruSan

[klgraham1013]

All other seats in the game can be crewed through the VAB.  Any claims as to why one should not fall flat to me.  Especially one used for controlling a vehicle.

[Kerbart]

2 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

All other seats in the game can be crewed through the VAB.  Any claims as to why one should not fall flat to me.  Especially one used for controlling a vehicle.

Simple: union regulations.

The Kerbal Union of Spacefarers and Airkerbals have negotiated that they will only board fully enclosed cabins on the launchpad, ensuring protection from the environment and the vacuum of space.

Wait until you found out what the International Brotherhood of Hinges and Rotational Plates Manufacturers had to say about Squad. In case you're ever wondering why those kind of parts are not stock.

[klgraham1013]

It's a "command seat."  It should be crewable just as every other command seat in the game.  I really don't understand the reasoning of "it can be exploited."  As if the extra step of also launching a pod makes it not an exploit.  Your just making an arbitrary rule to one part in a group that makes no obvious sense to a new user.  ...or an old user like me.

[Red Iron Crown]

Merged duplicate topics.

[Epox75]

The reasons why SQUAD didn't implement this function could be many. First of all there's a very light mod for it as @Red Iron Crown posted before and with this mod you can literally launch a rocket with a command seat that weights basically nothing and is utterly unrealistic. I don't think this is what SQUAD from the vanilla game. 

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Epox75

[Columbia]

Then add weight when a kerbal boards.

 

That shouldn't be an excuse for why a basic function for it isn't there.

[Epox75]

2 hours ago, Columbia said:

Then add weight when a kerbal boards.

Then download the mod. Isn't that the same way to think?

[p1t1o]

If using a crewed chair as a command seat is NOT an exploit - that means, if its weight is not an advantage - then it follows that using a pod is not a handicap.

So there is a very simple solution - if you need to crew a command chair from the VAB, just use a pod instead!

OR if there *is* a difference between command seats and pods, then it IS an exploit and there is a legit reason for not including it.

Cant have it both ways.

 

Suggestion - add a "non-command" seat that CAN be crewed from the VAB, but it cant be used to control anything, just to store a kerbal.

[klgraham1013]

2 hours ago, Epox75 said:

Then download the mod. Isn't that the same way to think?

No.  One is a function in the stock game, one is not.

Edited November 16, 2016 by klgraham1013

[Jarin]

On 11/12/2016 at 0:36 PM, Red Iron Crown said:

It is not hard, about a hundred lines of code in a mod for it. I don't think it's a question of difficulty, but desirability. The command chair as a regular pod is fairly overpowered compared to conventional pods, I think it has been left the way it is to discourage exploiting it.

 

4 hours ago, Epox75 said:

Then download the mod. Isn't that the same way to think?

The mod is currently broken because Squad changed how something works internally. Nobody has a fix yet, so no, it's not the same at all.

[Matuchkin]

4 hours ago, p1t1o said:

So there is a very simple solution - if you need to crew a command chair from the VAB, just use a pod instead!

What if you just spend an hour building a 200 part plane, made with panels and struts instead of fuselage sections, and with a custom cockpit with the command seat inside? What if you cannot bring yourself to waste time building a kerbal bus to transport kerbals into the plane because your computer is crepe? I cannot find any mods to assign crew space to EVA seats, since Take Command seems to be outdated.

[cicatrix]

I don't see how using a command seat could be an exploit... if we remember The Martian, the protagonist there basically used the same thing by turning his capsule into a command seat... well, almost.

If I protect the command seat with a fairing it will basically be a capsule of sorts. I don't understand why the devs are 'so afraid' of exploits since if anyone wanted to exploit something he would use either the mod or simply edit the save file, or use HyperEdit or turn on 'Infinite propellant' or would use any other of millions of ways to truly 'exploit' something. Even more, if I really want to launch a rocket with only a command seat I could do this without exploiting by boarding a Kerbal  on the launch pad.

As of now the prohibition to populate the command seat only creates difficulties in testing different types of crafts. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by cicatrix

[kBob]

I think it's a test, to see if you can figure out why and how to get around it on your own.  Alas I flunked the test, after building a rover with a command seat and finding I couldn't assign a Kerbal to it I just deleted the seat, put a capsule on instead and said to heck with it and never tried to use the command seat again.  Guess I won't get into the secret government program for clever people who have the patience to work around silly seeming limits.   Or in short: it's seems strange to have a command chair you can't easily and intuitively occupy with a commander.  Maybe it was only originally intended for use on the other planets.

[p1t1o]

9 hours ago, Matuchkin said:

What if you just spend an hour building a 200 part plane, made with panels and struts instead of fuselage sections, and with a custom cockpit with the command seat inside? What if you cannot bring yourself to waste time building a kerbal bus to transport kerbals into the plane because your computer is crepe? I cannot find any mods to assign crew space to EVA seats, since Take Command seems to be outdated.

Well then you aren't playing it right.

Just kidding! There's a million ways to play of course

 

I guess there are always going to be certain scenarios where there is a part or feature missing to complete one's project.

It does seem though that you are increasing your challenge by using parts to build your plane in a different way, ie: using panels instead of fuselage sections.

If you are increasing your difficulty in this way, then surely one needs to work around the part selection? Just as you work around building a fuselage with panels? It seems strange to work like that and then complain "this part doesnt work the way I need!".

I take it putting a probe core where the seat should be is not an option for some reason?

I get why the chair is not selectable.

And I get why people want it to be.

But the part selection cannot be all things to everybody - and unfortunately, in building your craft in this way, you are in a small minority. I presume.

[Matuchkin]

3 hours ago, p1t1o said:

I take it putting a probe core where the seat should be is not an option for some reason?

Well, that's exactly what I did. But you know, I want a kerbal to sit in my custom cockpit, because that's really the purpose of custom cockpits. Of course, I test-fly the planes with probe cores, but then I have to put a kerbal inside somehow.

5 hours ago, cicatrix said:

I don't see how using a command seat could be an exploit... if we remember The Martian, the protagonist there basically used the same thing by turning his capsule into a command seat... well, almost.

You know, almost. All that's left is tons of delicate life support equipment, an artificial environment, a ton of food supplies, functional seats that allow for sleep, a basic amount of space for movement, some space to stretch your legs, a main parachute, a drogue chute, a ton of monopropellant, RCS thrusters, like 30 environment emergency systems, med kits, an airlock system, a docking port, seatbelts, softer seats, and space for an LAS on top. Also at least a (net) quarter of a ton of wires, buttons, levers, HUD screens, two joysticks, and sensors for every part of the capsule.

So yeah. A seat with a conical board on top of it. Almost a capsule.

But seriously, I might want to make a rocket in the same way that I make my planes. Like, take a command seat, surround with a fairing, and try to imitate as many systems as possible via stock parts and tweakscale. Might be interesting.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Matuchkin

[cicatrix]

33 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

You know, almost. All that's left is tons of delicate life support equipment, an artificial environment, a ton of food supplies, functional seats that allow for sleep, a basic amount of space for movement, some space to stretch your legs, a main parachute, a drogue chute, a ton of monopropellant, RCS thrusters, like 30 environment emergency systems, med kits, an airlock system, a docking port, seatbelts, softer seats, and space for an LAS on top. Also at least a (net) quarter of a ton of wires, buttons, levers, HUD screens, two joysticks, and sensors for every part of the capsule.

Come on, he only needed to get sub-orbital and rendezvous with the rescue ship. I haven't read the book, but judging by what I saw in the movie, he threw away nearly everything from the capsule, effectively turning it into a metal frame on top of the fuel tank... just like the Kerbals would do.

[Matuchkin]

Just now, cicatrix said:

Come on, he only needed to get sub-orbital and rendezvous with the rescue ship. I haven't read the book, but judging by what I saw in the movie, he threw away nearly everything from the capsule, effectively turning it into a metal frame on top of the fuel tank... just like the Kerbals would do.

Yeah I know. But as much as that story was realistic, this manoeuvre would probably not work in real life. I'm not an expert, but I think that's the case.

20 hours ago, Epox75 said:

Then download the mod. Isn't that the same way to think?

No that's not the same way to think. A mod can have bugs and errors. Functions of the mod may be not as smooth or not as functional as those that are in an unmodded install. Mods take far longer to update. You can screw up while trying to download mods.

Meanwhile, SQUAD can make a rock solid, glitch free, constantly updating addition to the game, that will be preferred over a mod by a huge margin.

[Epox75]

34 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

No that's not the same way to think. A mod can have bugs and errors. Functions of the mod may be not as smooth or not as functional as those that are in an unmodded install. Mods take far longer to update. You can screw up while trying to download mods.

Meanwhile, SQUAD can make a rock solid, glitch free, constantly updating addition to the game, that will be preferred over a mod by a huge margin.

What I meant is that both installing a mod or adding weight when a kerbal boards are not a solution. If SQUAD finds a way to avoid controlling a whole rocket from a single command seat, then an implementation of this feature is more than welcome. If the implementation would be like the mod that gives the possibility to people, for instance playing in Career mode, to launch a kerbal in orbit without a command pod, then I don't think that this is what SQUAD wants from the game and on this I agree with them. 

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Epox75