R/C Flying Lunar Module Model (was: An interesting photo of something with the moon).

[GeorgeG]

Update - Changed the thread name on December 11th "An interesting photo of something with the moon" to indicate what this really is.  December 11th is also the 44th anniversary of the landing of Apollo-17, Lunar Module Challenger, by astronauts  Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt.

Actual info about the model begins on post #12:   http://tinyurl.com/z76hop6

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For fun, I'm posting this pic "cold" with no explanation, yet.

It is a work in progress.....

Edited December 11, 2016 by GeorgeG

[Shpaget]

Are you expecting a comment?

[GeorgeG]

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

Are you expecting a comment?

Maybe I should have asked if anyone wanted to guess at what it is or how it was shot.  Besides a not yet complete model of a Lunar Module.

[NorthernDevo]

54 minutes ago, GeorgeG said:

Maybe I should have asked if anyone wanted to guess at what it is or how it was shot.  Besides a not yet complete model of a Lunar Module.

Not by a longshot. I'm guessing Orbiter and a doctored pic, but I'm probably wrong. The AMSO addon is realistic enough to take VERY realistic photos.

[GeorgeG]

It is a real photograph that I took early last night.  No photoshop.  Hey, if the image was something  that was not real,  I'd have gotten the moon in good focus rather than blurry.

Actually, I took the photo after sunset (twilight), the sky was not black but the use of the camera's flash and general darkness made it look black.  I'll post a video showing the sky was not black yet, and more info later.

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by GeorgeG

[legoclone09]

That's cool, looks like a nice LEM model!

[GeorgeG]

Yes, it's a Lunar Module model.  Descent stage mostly balsa/basswood. Ascent stage a crude  2-D paper mockup for now, until I make up a good looking Ascent stage using patterns from a cardboard model. Later it will be all prettied up, "gold foil" (kapton, mylar), and all that to look more realistic. 

But that's still not the really neat thing about this....  

How did I get that photo? I do not mean the camera. I mean model location so I could take such a photo.

BTW - here's another photo:

Then this indoors showing the lighted engine mock-up.

Edited December 10, 2016 by GeorgeG

[Shpaget]

4 hours ago, GeorgeG said:

No photoshop.

I'm no expert, but under the magnifying glass of fotoforensics your image lights up like a train in a tunnel. You've messed with the photo, it's definitely not straight from the camera.
http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=8b9db6da53f2d63f8b05835890180b0df1ef864b.53409

As for the angles, you could have used a glass table, lander-on-a-stick, parachute, the model laid on its side on a mirror or any other method to get the angle.

[GeorgeG]

It's something else. Real photos (I did say it was shot in twilight, but the flash and exposure makes the sky look totally dark. This may be why that forensics image looks funky). Video will show it was not totally dark.

No mirrors, no glass.  Nothing attached to the model.

I will post the answer later tonight, with pics and video that show what's really going on.  But it'd be interesting if someone does figure it out first. 

I think you folks are gonna love the answer.

Edited December 10, 2016 by GeorgeG

[GeorgeG]

Forum software hated my pre-written post I tried to post in this message, then 0001narwhalz replied before I could complete it.  So for continuity's sake I'm posting the info after his message rather than here. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by GeorgeG

[0111narwhalz]

It's clearly a quadcopter. The blades form a suspicious rectangle which draws closer inspection.

[GeorgeG]

Man I wrote up a long message about it but the forum software hated the imgur and youtube links so I'm adding them in bit by bit. In the meantime, 011narwhalz figured out it was a quadcopter  (the alignment of the blades was totally coincidental). Now onto the original message I was trying to post:

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OK, I’ve “Droned” on long enough. I thought it would be fun to introduce this model project in this way as that photo surprised me in not showing the telltale clues as to what was holding it up.  Although once you read the rest of this and go back to the first photo, you can just barely see them [edit - OK, 0001narwalz did see them without this hint].

 Sort of ironic that  a fancy photo forensic analysis highlighted “noise”, without actually indicating what was holding the model in the air 50 feet or more above the ground.  Here is the same photo with added brightness and increased contrast (so this photo is modified, but not the original).

The model was holding itself up….

Those gray things….. propeller blades. It is a flying R/C Quadcopter!

Video of the takeoff before I shot the photos, you can see it was not totally dark, but close to it (and looking a bit darker than in the video).  After takeoff and climb, I put it into a hover in “Loiter” mode, which means that it used GPS to stay in place (not drift), and the altimeter onboard held the hover altitude, while I shot the photos. Yes, essentially at that point the MultiCopter Flight Controller equivalent of “MechJeb” was flying it. 

Here is another photo where the model was closer, so the flash lit it up better,  and the props are visible. But the moon looks smaller due to the model being closer. When this model is completed and looking good, I'll try for some better "Moon shots".

So, here it is earlier in the day, again in Loiter while I shot some pics.

I’ve been documenting this project on The Rocketry Forum, linked here:

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?137174

Almost any questions someone might have about building and flying it, are probably covered in that thread. So I’m not going to cover much detail here, please look there.

While it is not model rocket powered, that is a my main forum to post in since model rockets are my main thing and I post a lot there. 

The model is 100% electric motor / prop powered, a Quadcopter.  It will not have a model rocket engine in it (someone else can do that with their R/C Lunar Module)

Scale is 1/16, about 2 feet across the landing footpads.

Totally scratch built. Here’s the early structure of the Descent Stage next to a DJI Phantom.

And here it is the the Descent Stage more complete, motors added, and a temporary crude Ascent stage for visualization.

A photo of it’s third flight, before it got better legs.

A selfie, also indicating the size. 

A view on the ground, after adding improved lower leg struts:

As I said earlier, it is a Work In Progress.  I wanted to test fly it  in basic form first to make sure it would work, in case it was not going to work. Also, if it had some problems to make it crash, better to do that early than later after making it look more accurate. And indeed it had a couple of dumb crashes, which I learned from.  So, anyway, this will be looking a lot better soon.  The Ascent stage will mostly be made up by using 300% scale-up of patterns from a 1/48 Cardboard model (images of one below are not mine).

Here is a video of a lot of flying, taken Dec 2nd. Most of the first 6.5 minutes are with a fixed camera, which I edited to mostly show takeoffs and landings.  At about 6.5 minutes, footage from a GoPro I had mounted on a helmet, so it follows the model in flight. 

BTW - I’ve been flying Model Rockets since 1970. And R/C since about 1977. When I was a kid during  the  Apollo Lunar Landings… I thought up the “crazy dream” of building an R/C model of a Lunar Module, that would use rocket power. But aside from the lack of a rocket engine that could burn for a very very very VERY long time (with enough thrust) and be throttle-able, were the facts that it would need a guidance system onboard to keep it steady, and R/C gear was so big and heavy and expensive. It is incredible the technology we have access to today, the Flight Controller for this is effectively a guidance system smaller than a Saltine Cracker, for under $40.  And nobody envisioned anything like a “Multicopter” at the time.  

So I never REALLY thought I could ever build an R/C Lunar Module that flies,  ever. But I learned a lot as a hobbyist (have done a 1/72 R/C Space Shuttle that drops the SRB’s then the ET and glides back).  I started flying multicopters about 2 years ago, a few months later built a 250 sized quad on my own (no kit, bought the parts and learned online how to assemble it and set up the Flight Controller) .  With the access today to such advanced, small, and lightweight technology at a relatively affordable price, I realized I COULD actually build a flying R/C Lunar Module, as a Quadcopter. 

So, OK, its not technically rocket powered. But that’s OK, it would take a lot of $ to develop a suitable extremely accurately throttleable hybrid rocket engine to fly a model like this (precise throttle so it could land slowly), even if it could be done safely and reliably, and it would weigh a lot, including the Nitrous tank (Engine could be gimbaled, but still the model would need something for roll control, like a tank of a liquified gas to power some valve-operated roll thrusters). So, theoretically possible, but not practical for a hobbyist (well, not practical for me anyway).  I can fly THIS model on a few cents of electricity to charge the battery packs. The packs wear out after a couple of hundred charge cycles or so, but even then that’s pennies per flight.  Also the battery is good for at least 7 minutes with a nice safety margin, I've had it flying for 10 minutes when not maneuvering much and keep it close to the ground the last 2 minutes if the battery got too low to maintain hover. 

“Building” a lander, launching it, and landing it on the Mun in KSP is fun.  

 Having built THIS, is WAY more fun in Real Life, to fly and  land a Lunar Module on Earth. 

- George Gassaway

My website:  http://georgesrockets.com/GRP/GRP-home.htm

Edited December 11, 2016 by GeorgeG

[MaxxQ]

Holy cow!  @GeorgeG  Been a long time since I've seen you posting anywhere (don't frequent rocketry forums anymore, as I'm out of the hobby), and was wondering if you were still flying.  I'm the guy who made the cover of SpRocketry with the 1:10 LJII.  More into 3D modeling now, and at one point a few years ago, I used the scale data you and Tom(?) drew up of the LJII to do my first complex 3D model.  

Can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30016483@N05/albums/72157607018142839 

Thinking about doing a new one with everything I've learned since then.

Never realized you were here.  Small internet, eh?

 

[GeorgeG]

John, great to see you're around somewhere.  That 3D Little Joe modle was great. Can that be convieted into .stl parts?

I've been doing KSP for over 5 years. Lost a lot of posts in a forum crash. I've not been as active latel,y but you can look pu my post history and laos check out some of my KSP stuff in Imgur labums linked at the bottom of this.

On to some new news about the model.

I gave the model a partial Facelift.  Temporarily added an incomplete forward cabin section, and also an incomplete aft assembly, to the dummy Ascent stage.  Now, the dummy Ascent stage is about the correct thickness for the middle section, so with these parts stuck together they are close to representing the fore-aft locations of the parts.

I learned a lot in assembling the forward cabin. The fit is not quite right, I need to tweak the original cardboard model file and also be sure I get a couple of folds done better.  But as I said earlier, I figured the first one would not be the final one since there would be things to learn.

When I do make the central section, I will make some of it using foam board, such as used for the dummy Ascent stage. But the structure will be a bit different, and it will be “skinned” with the cardboard print.

Today was the 44th anniversary of Apollo-17.  Well, Apollo-17 launched on December 7th, 1972.  But today was the 44th anniversary of the LANDING, at  2:55 PM EST. I made it a point to be flying the model today at 2:55 PM EST, made the first landing a bit before , last landing some time after. 

So, here is how the model looked in the air with the partial facelift:

And……

Here is how it looked landing…. 

kicking up “dust”

Here’s a video.  Good thing that the moon’s dust was not as deep as some feared…..

Also, a video from some flying on Saturday. I got it higher up than I’ve shown in previous videos. The engine nozzle light really stood out.

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by GeorgeG

[MaxxQ]

2 hours ago, GeorgeG said:

John, great to see you're around somewhere.  That 3D Little Joe modle was great. Can that be convieted into .stl parts?

I've been doing KSP for over 5 years. Lost a lot of posts in a forum crash. I've not been as active latel,y but you can look pu my post history and laos check out some of my KSP stuff in Imgur labums linked at the bottom of this.

I doubt it could be used for .stl.  Aside from the fact that I'm not even sure where the original mesh is, it's all hollow, with the walls of the corrugated aluminum at the right thickness, and nothing inside, as you can see in the images.  I did this about ten-twelve years and three computers ago - however, I usually back up everything to BD-R, so I'm sure it's packed away somewhere.  I would need to go back and do some major changes to make it print-ready 

OTOH, I mentioned that I've been thinking about doing a new one.  I could do it with printing in mind, although bear in mind that I have a habit of going overboard with the polycount.  My Honorverse meshes (one can be seen in my userpic - for more, see here: http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/ ) run somewhere around 1.2 million polys each (quads, not tris), if not more, and they're still being updated with more detailed... details.  This is causing some issues for the fan group/consulting group I'm involved with that works with the author, David Weber, on visualizing and adding background to the Honorverse, as there are plans for printing those.  Nothing concrete yet, just some ideas we're tossing around.  Anyway, my high-polycount meshes are causing a few conniptions with the guys trying to get them to work in .stl.  I don't think an LJII would come near that many polys, and of course, it can be broken down into individual parts, which helps.

Lastly, it may take me awhile to get to it.  My job now is making jewelry, and with the holidays upon us, and New Year's and Valentine's Day coming up, I'm working 10-14 hour days, 6-7 days a week.

I've only been "Kerbaling" for a little over three and a half years, and so far, all I've managed is to get to Duna once.  That may be the last time as well, since I'm currently (when I can) running a Galileo's Planet Pack install, which completely deletes the entire stock Kerbal system (including Kerbin), and adds new planets.  It's been an off-and-on thing with me.