[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[AtomicRocketBooster]

Is there a way to use WOLF transport credits to move CRP resources around (e.g. Antimatter, Spodumene, or LqdHe3) even if those resources aren't used in any of the WOLF conversions?

Also, relatedly: is it possible to move EngineerPoints, FarmerPoints, etc around in addition to resources? I'm planning out my WOLFy infrastructure in career mode and haven't been able to test yet.

[Terwin]

3 minutes ago, AtomicRocketBooster said:

Is there a way to use WOLF transport credits to move CRP resources around (e.g. Antimatter, Spodumene, or LqdHe3) even if those resources aren't used in any of the WOLF conversions?

Also, relatedly: is it possible to move EngineerPoints, FarmerPoints, etc around in addition to resources? I'm planning out my WOLFy infrastructure in career mode and haven't been able to test yet.

You cannot add resources to WOLF, you can only produce and retrieve them.

If your WOLF drill can extract those resources, you can probably ship them around with WOLF.

I think that kerbal points are something that can be shipped around, but it is not something that I have done as of yet.

[AtomicRocketBooster]

5 hours ago, Terwin said:

You cannot add resources to WOLF, you can only produce and retrieve them.

If your WOLF drill can extract those resources, you can probably ship them around with WOLF.

I think that kerbal points are something that can be shipped around, but it is not something that I have done as of yet.

Looks like you can ship resources like FFT LqdHe3 but you need to go into WOLF.cfg and add them as harvestable resources.  There might be a way to do this as a MM patch, but I'm not sure.

[Mossconfig]

Could we get a building that sells stuff automatically? Funds for reasources? Might be cheaty, but what in this game isn't?

[Terwin]

3 minutes ago, Mossconfig said:

Could we get a building that sells stuff automatically? Funds for reasources? Might be cheaty, but what in this game isn't?

A building?

You do realize that nothing has a sellable value off of Kerbin, and in particular at a launch site if you want full value.

Also, a single large cargo container of rare resources(potentially filled from a hopper) can provide funding for pretty much the rest of your space program. (hundreds of millions in funds)

[Tybot]

1 hour ago, Mossconfig said:

Could we get a building that sells stuff automatically? Funds for reasources? Might be cheaty, but what in this game isn't?

Take that money, and turn it into a payload that gets you those resources. That's how you turn money into resources. Resource chains are kind of the whole point of the mod, so if you're looking for ways to bypass it, then you have to ask yourself if the mod is really for you.

[Harrekin]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:46 PM, RoverDude said:

In this case, it's the only opinion that matters.  There will be zero KIS/KAS support going forward.  I've already gone through and removed it from all configs, patches, etc. and replaced with stock system support.

 

1.  USI parts have the appropriate metadata in the next release, and I expect other mods will either follow suit or someone will make a very simple MM patch.

2.  Konstruction adds this and is bundled with MKS, so all good.

Had a quick look through the Development branch changes...

 

Pretty excited for the next release with Stock Inventory support

 

Great work!

[CateredCarrot]

8 hours ago, AtomicRocketBooster said:

Also, relatedly: is it possible to move EngineerPoints, FarmerPoints, etc around in addition to resources? I'm planning out my WOLFy infrastructure in career mode and haven't been able to test yet.

I cannot move "KerbalPoints" in my sandbox save.

[Mossconfig]

6 hours ago, Terwin said:

Also, a single large cargo container of rare resources(potentially filled from a hopper) can provide funding for pretty much the rest of your space program. (hundreds of millions in funds)

This is what I'm doing right now. Exotics to hopper to recoverable rover to funds. Maybe have a middle man part that can automatically take the hoppers and rovers out of the equation? Idk, my current system works.

[Feye]

5 hours ago, CateredCarrot said:

I cannot move "KerbalPoints" in my sandbox save.

And why do you expect to be able to do that in the first place?
Moving Kerbal Points would be the equivalent of removing the Kerbal (who is necessary to have the machines running) to somewhere else, losing all functionality in the place or origin.
 

52 minutes ago, Mossconfig said:

This is what I'm doing right now. Exotics to hopper to recoverable rover to funds. Maybe have a middle man part that can automatically take the hoppers and rovers out of the equation? Idk, my current system works.

As far as I know there is no "automated" way of getting funds, Vanilla or MKS. You always have to do something, be it meeting contract requirements, achieving milestones or recovering vessels.
If you want Funds to be a complete non-issue, Science Mode is what you're looking for

 

I have recently updated the mod from 1.3 to 1.4 and got confused about this whole WOLF shenanigans, so I jumped back here...
After reading through the last 40ish pages in this thread my understanding is that the base game doesn't track resource "fluctuations" of non-loaded vessels, which is why "standard" MKS bases with spread out drill rigs dumping into planetary storage don't work without going around and loading each vessel regularly to update the resource flow.
What a bummer.
I understand WOLF "fixes" this by adding a completely new layer that is "beyond space and time" because the vessels you build get removed from the game as WOLF gobbles it up and adds its biological and technological distinctiveness to its own...
And the reduced part count is always a win, although I think I'm still gonna build my 24 Kerbal Mun base in its full glory since I already planned it out...

The question I have now is.. if the game doesn't track resources when a vessel is not loaded, how exactly does the last step in a (self sufficient) colony work when you have a hopper providing colony supplies to a Colonization Module?
Is it just working through "a backlog" of resource input/output when you load the colony and everything will be fine™ as long as the math checks out on paper?

Edited February 11, 2021 by Feye
Grammar is hard -.-

[LatiMacciato]

1 hour ago, Mossconfig said:

This is what I'm doing right now. Exotics to hopper to recoverable rover to funds. Maybe have a middle man part that can automatically take the hoppers and rovers out of the equation? Idk, my current system works.

Considering that you might not be able to recover with the current KSP version (v1.11.x) for funds you could dump the rare resources into the planetary depot for later usage. That's what I do atm instead of trying the Nth resource to recover but ending up broke again.

 

[RoverDude]

3 hours ago, Feye said:

The question I have now is.. if the game doesn't track resources when a vessel is not loaded, how exactly does the last step in a (self sufficient) colony work when you have a hopper providing colony supplies to a Colonization Module?
Is it just working through "a backlog" of resource input/output when you load the colony and everything will be fine™ as long as the math checks out on paper?

It's basically a resource generator and uses the stock catch-up mechanics for the non-wolfy side of the equation.  WOLF itself has no temporal element so it's just a deduction on that side.

[CateredCarrot]

5 hours ago, Feye said:

11 hours ago, CateredCarrot said:

 

And why do you expect to be able to do that in the first place?

I don’t. I was just answering a simple question. 

[AtomicRocketBooster]

6 hours ago, Feye said:

And why do you expect to be able to do that in the first place?
Moving Kerbal Points would be the equivalent of removing the Kerbal (who is necessary to have the machines running) to somewhere else, losing all functionality in the place or origin.

I was thinking it'd be akin to workers flying over part-time to perform maintenance, fix busted machinery, etc.  Similar to how they do maintenance on offshore wind farms or other remote installations here on earth.

Doesn't seem ridiculous, although there'd probably have to be some exchange rate (e.g. only 50% efficiency when moving them this way)

[lBoBl]

Hullo guys,

Basically I have one simple question, should I get MKS now or should I wait for the next release which apparently promises many great things?

The thing is, I've played with MKS quite a lot in the past but I ended up abandoning it for a couple of reasons, basically I spent all my time micro-managing every resource in laggy bases and that kept me from efficiently exploring the myriad of worlds that I have in my GPP/GEP/ OPM careers, and I wasn't a huge fan of the esthetics of the Tundra parts which were basically your best option for end game colonization. So needless to say, I'm very excited about WOLF and the new Atlas parts, but...

The one thing I really loved doing with MKS, rather than just sending Kerbals to live on another world, was to use MKS and EPL as a not-too-cheaty way of building huge vessels which could never have flown through the atmosphere of Kerbin on smaller planets or moons and then sending them to the confines of the solar system. Basically EPL on its own (or even GC from what I understand, although I've never really tried it) felt way too easy, just picking up a ton of rocks in a single spot and making a rocket out of it definitely felt like cheating, but having to gather up tons of resources and set up complex production chains before being able to build anything felt exciting and rewarding.

From what I understand, at the moment GC has been pulled out and MKS doesn't support that kind of mechanics anymore, but that might come back in the form of an USI mod in the not-so-distant future? Is that correct, and what about EPL, is that also not supported at the moment?

Another concern I have is that there seems to be major changes upcoming, like the transition from KIS to the new stock inventory system (which I absolutely love).  Basically if I install MKS right now and start using it is it likely to break my save in the future when I want to upgrade to a new version?

Lastly, if I decide that I can't wait for a future update to build stuff off-world, how unreasonable would it be to install EPL or GC with MKS at the moment? Have the old config files been pulled or are they just no longer officially supported?

Edited February 11, 2021 by lBoBl

[Terwin]

28 minutes ago, lBoBl said:

Lastly, if I decide that I can't wait for a future update to build stuff off-world, how unreasonable would it be to install EPL or GC with MKS at the moment? Have the old config files been pulled or are they just no longer officially supported?

The config files should still be there and may even have been updated for 1.11

At the moment I am mostly working on WOLF infrastructure (which will hopefully be easy to transfer, at the very least you can edit your save to re-add it as it is not obfuscated in any way), not sure yet if I will add a construction mod or just wait for the integrated construction, probably depends on how far I get before the new version is released.

[DoktorKrogg]

22 minutes ago, lBoBl said:

Basically if I install MKS right now and start using it is it likely to break my save in the future when I want to upgrade to a new version?

Depends on what you mean by "break". We aren't planning to remove anything, only add. We may deprecate some things in the future like planetary logistics but it isn't on the chopping block just yet. EPL hasn't had "official" support for several years now. That said, we haven't done anything or plan to do anything that precludes the use of EPL (or GC for that matter). We are planning a fairly major update to Konstruction that will include a part fabricator (think 3D printer) that works with the new stock inventory system and ground and orbital shipyards for building entire vessels. We're introducing new resource chains to support those new mechanics but they extend the existing resource chain, not replace it.

Worst case, we'll introduce some new things that may make you want to change your strategy but it won't mean that the MKS base you spent 50 hours building will suddenly stop working. You may decide you want to dismantle parts of it and if so, we've got you covered there too as we're adding a part recycling mechanic to Konstruction that will give partial refunds of the new resources in addition to MatKits. So there is no "bad" time to dive into USI mod land. We have numerous things in the pipeline right now that we haven't even announced yet. If you want to wait until we're "done" with USI mods for KSP 1, you'll be waiting a long time. 

[DoktorKrogg]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:48 AM, AtomicRocketBooster said:

I was thinking it'd be akin to workers flying over part-time to perform maintenance, fix busted machinery, etc.  Similar to how they do maintenance on offshore wind farms or other remote installations here on earth.

Doesn't seem ridiculous, although there'd probably have to be some exchange rate (e.g. only 50% efficiency when moving them this way)

This question has come up before and it has been discussed internally.  I think for us to change the current behavior, we would need to see that restricting crew point transfers is causing problems. From my own testing so far, I haven't found this to be the case. I may change my mind at some point as I play with it more but for now I think restricting crew point transfers helps us avoid complexity and some other potentially unintended consequences.

On a related note, we're looking at making it possible to transport Kerbals around in a WOLF-like way for an upcoming release (i.e. not crew points but the actual Kerbals themselves). More details to come on that as we get closer to actually having something to show off.

[Snark]

A lot of content has been removed, due to off-topic comments completely derailing the thread (forum rule 2.2.o) to pester a mod author about how they write the mod (rule 2.2.p).

Folks, please remember that mod authors do not owe you anything.  These are people who put in lots of hard work to give you shiny toys, for free, asking nothing in return.  You owe them a debt of gratitude, if you choose to use the toys they give you; but they don't owe you anything.  At all.  Even one tiny little bit.

Therefore, if for some reason you think that the shiny free toys they're giving you aren't shiny enough for your tastes... well, that's your problem, not theirs.  If you don't like it, don't use it.  It is highly inappropriate to complain that they're doing it wrong, or to argue about your personal philosophy of modding.  It's not your mod, so it's not your place to criticize.  It's also off-topic:  the many users of this mod come to this thread because they're interested in this mod, not because they want to wade through pages of ranting about how you think modders should conduct themselves.

That doesn't mean you can't make friendly suggestions-- lots of mod authors love to hear from their users, and feedback can be very valuable.  But please, be polite about it.  Suggestions are okay, demands are not.  And the mod author is, of course, completely free to say "no"-- with or without giving a reason-- and if they do, then it's inappropriate to argue with them.  You politely suggested, they politely declined, done.

As a final note:  If you see someone whom you believe is behaving inappropriately, then by all means, please file a report (with an explanatory note) and the moderator team will have a look at it.  Please, however, do not make a public post requesting the moderators take some sort of action.  This is called "backseat moderating" and is against the rules (specifically, rule 3.2).

Thank you for your understanding.

[Feye]

Wow, the amount of science you get for performing a wolf survey is.. uhm.. rather generous - i don't think it scales with the game's science multiplier settings? Is this intended?

[Tacombel]

3 minutes ago, Feye said:

Wow, the amount of science you get for performing a wolf survey is.. uhm.. rather generous - i don't think it scales with the game's science multiplier settings? Is this intended?

And you get the same quantity when deploying the depot. 50+50 at Kerbin and 250+250 in the other biomes.

[Terwin]

26 minutes ago, Feye said:

Wow, the amount of science you get for performing a wolf survey is.. uhm.. rather generous - i don't think it scales with the game's science multiplier settings? Is this intended?

To be fair, this does require landing in the biome, and for the depot in particular, landing a single use rather large and heavy mid-tech level item, which does not have a lot of use until you also acquire multiple max-tech elements.

Once you have all of the WOLF tech, there are not likely to be a lot of unresearched tech nodes left, especially when using the community tech tree, making additional research points of little value.

And it is not as if you couldn't already unlock pretty much the entire community tech tree with biome hopping inside the kerbin SOI, so this just makes it so that you can do less biome hopping but still have access to advanced WOLF tech just from deploying lots of depots(which are not terribly useful in and of themselves without that advanced WOLF tech).

 

[Feye]

 

2 minutes ago, Terwin said:

[..]

And it is not as if you couldn't already unlock pretty much the entire community tech tree with biome hopping inside the kerbin SOI, so this just makes it so that you can do less biome hopping but still have access to advanced WOLF tech just from deploying lots of depots(which are not terribly useful in and of themselves without that advanced WOLF tech).

Exactly why I asked if it scales with the science multiplier... because driving around on Kerbin SOI with (bon voyage enabled) rovers is trivial and the amount of science will be hilarious just from that.
Guess I'm gonna survey all the stuff and delete 90% of the science gained via save file edit (it's easy enough).

[DoktorKrogg]

RE: science, funds and reputation from WOLF... there is a tab in the game settings specifically for WOLF that controls these values as well as resource abundance. We went with generous default values for the reasons @Terwin surmised. CTT requires a lot more science than stock and we also see WOLF as more of a late-game technology where the remaining nodes in your tech tree are likely to be the expensive ones where every bit of science helps (at least with CTT anyway).

[Feye]

9 minutes ago, DoktorKrogg said:

there is a tab in the game settings specifically for WOLF that controls these values as well as resource abundance

Right, found it. I didn't even know you could adjust these settings while playing