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[1.11.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)


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26 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

@Wyzard - You can get a lot of what you just asked for with antennas ;)  We decided to always have antennas behave as a buff vs a penalty.  It should pop up as you prepare to transmit.

Even with 100% antenna signal strength, some experiments can only get a fraction of their science value from transmitting.  For example: mystery goo on the launchpad in a new unmodded save, with a hefty antenna on the vessel.  The science window says recovery +3.0 science, transmit +1.3 science.  The transmit button says +40% bonus due to signal, but still only 42% return from transmitting.  I think that 42% comes from the xmitDataScalar=0.3 in the part config, times 140% from the antenna boost.  What I'm wishing for is a way to get the whole 3.0 science from transmitting, after analyzing in a lab — or in other words, for the blue "transmit" bar to be identical to the green "recover" bar.

The ScienceData class in the API has a baseTransmitValue that influences how much science you get from transmitting.  I did some experiments awhile back and found that it's possible to get what I want by changing that value on a ScienceData instance — I think just by setting it to 1.0, though it was like a year ago and I don't remember the details.  (Based on that, I've thought about writing a mod for this myself, but I think the UI work would take more time than I have available right now.)

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58 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

Even with 100% antenna signal strength, some experiments can only get a fraction of their science value from transmitting.  For example: mystery goo on the launchpad in a new unmodded save, with a hefty antenna on the vessel.  The science window says recovery +3.0 science, transmit +1.3 science.  The transmit button says +40% bonus due to signal, but still only 42% return from transmitting.  I think that 42% comes from the xmitDataScalar=0.3 in the part config, times 140% from the antenna boost.  What I'm wishing for is a way to get the whole 3.0 science from transmitting, after analyzing in a lab — or in other words, for the blue "transmit" bar to be identical to the green "recover" bar.

I like that idea. Maybe with different levels - you can't have all the instruments needed for analyzing Mun rock in a tin can. You can do a little bit more on a station like the ISS. And even more on a big module on a Duna base.

And maybe behaving differently between if done in orbit or on the ground, but I have no idea for a realistic balancing.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

Silly question... How can I transfer crew to and from Tundra parts (Colonization, Medicine, etc.) without Ship Manifest addon, which is severely bugged in 1.7.x? There are no hatches to click.

You can't. You'd need to transfer them through a part that has one (The Tundra and Ranger series both contain a couple of airlock parts). If you've got kerbals stuck in them for rescue contracts, use RPV:

 

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5 hours ago, voicey99 said:

You can't. You'd need to transfer them through a part that has one (The Tundra and Ranger series both contain a couple of airlock parts). If you've got kerbals stuck in them for rescue contracts, use RPV:

 

You did not understand the question. Also you are wrong about "cannot".  Abovementioned Ship Manifest was the most obvious answer, but I found another one already. Portrait Stats adds a button to start stock crew transfer from ANY part that holds the kerbal to the connnected parts (with hatches).

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13 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

You did not understand the question. Also you are wrong about "cannot".  Abovementioned Ship Manifest was the most obvious answer, but I found another one already. Portrait Stats adds a button to start stock crew transfer from ANY part that holds the kerbal to the connnected parts (with hatches).

Oh, you mean between the parts on the same vessel? Any part that has crew in it will have a button in its rightclick UI to initiate crew transfer to another part, mod or not, though you've got to find them first.

Not a fan of your tone btw

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Did the Ranger Thermal Control System get super-nerfed? I used to be able to have just one of these for a whole base of nuclear reactors and dozens of drills, now it's not even enough to cool two bits of a MEU-500 drill. If I have one bit running it's at 500K, but two bits it's 622K (only 63% efficiency) and three bits it's 667K (41% efficiency). It doesn't even matter whether there's an engineer present and the drills run at 65% load, or not and they run at 3.5% load.

Strangely enough this is true even for multiple drills, so it's not a problem of the TCS being overloaded but it not getting the heat away from the drills, it seems. Either way at the moment I need three TCS for every two drills... so it's pretty useless.

Or is this a KSP bug itself?

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28 minutes ago, jd284 said:

Did the Ranger Thermal Control System get super-nerfed? I used to be able to have just one of these for a whole base of nuclear reactors and dozens of drills, now it's not even enough to cool two bits of a MEU-500 drill. If I have one bit running it's at 500K, but two bits it's 622K (only 63% efficiency) and three bits it's 667K (41% efficiency). It doesn't even matter whether there's an engineer present and the drills run at 65% load, or not and they run at 3.5% load.

Strangely enough this is true even for multiple drills, so it's not a problem of the TCS being overloaded but it not getting the heat away from the drills, it seems. Either way at the moment I need three TCS for every two drills... so it's pretty useless.

Or is this a KSP bug itself?

Isn't this the new efficiency handling?  

Two separators produce more than one, but less than twice as much.

With the maximum heat rejection for the drill, it does not matter how many MEU-500 you have attached, the drill can only cool at a certain rate, and once you hit that rate, additional cooling does nothing.

Have you verified that two or more MEU-500 will let the drills run more separators with less heat?  I would not expect that to work, and you can probably have several drills per MEU-500 with no reduction in efficiency.

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Hi everybody,

first of all, a big thank you to @RoverDude for his awesome constellation of mods. I am currently experiencing the issue, that efficiency parts in MKS do not seem to be taken into account during catchup (also refererenced here: https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/issues/1441).

I did some investigation in the code base and have a quick fix which currently works for me, but would love some pointers to get this into a more permanent solution which I could provide as a Pull Request. Sorry if this thread is not the right place for such a discussion, if so, let me know and I will move it somewhere else.

Anyway, here it goes (sorry for the long explanation, but I did not want to leave out any facts):

Simple test setup is a Tundra Industrial Refinery combined with a 250 MPU. Industrial Refinery is set to Metals. MPU's bays to [Smelter]. When running this setup for 10 Minutes in the Refinery Scene, I get the correct amount of metals produced. When running it from the Tracking Station and returning to the ship (thus triggering catchup), I get an amount of metals as if the efficiency impact from the MPU was missing. I can provide a simple save file on request.

Debugging the code, I narrowed it down to a line in MKSModule.GetActiveBoosters:

totalEfficiencyBoost += (float)(booster.EfficiencyMultiplier * booster.Multiplier);

The EfficiencyMultiplier is calculated in USI_EfficiencyBoosterAddon during PostProcess. Unfortunatly, this has not been called when the catchup-mechanic (and thus GetActiveBoosters) runs, so it returns "0".

My current quick fix is to simply set the EfficiencyMultiplier to "1" if we are in catchup.

if (InCatchupMode())
	totalEfficiencyBoost += (float)booster.Multiplier;
else
	totalEfficiencyBoost += (float)(booster.EfficiencyMultiplier * booster.Multiplier);

This of course results in the expected booster effect when testing it in the game, but is a cludge.

The actual efficiency multiplier (when not in catchup) is calculated as follows (in USI_EfficiencyBoosterAddon from USITools):

public override void PostProcess(ConverterResults result, double deltaTime)
{
  base.PostProcess(result, deltaTime);
  EfficiencyMultiplier = result.TimeFactor / deltaTime;
}

During my test case TimeFactor and deltaTime where always pretty close, so the EfficiencyMultiplier resulted in a number close to one, but I currently do not understand the involved variables (TimeFactor) and deltaTime (which seem to come from Stock KSP where I can not investigate the code).

Can someone give some insight here?

I currently see two solutions, for which I would like to get some input:

1. Make sure PostProcess is called in catchup before the booster calculations. I am currently not sure, where to go for this and how large of a change this would be.

2. Understand the efficiencyMultiplier-Logic and handle it during the booster-calculation (I tested changing the governor setting but could not see any change).

Edited by Rincewind1010
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1 hour ago, Nicky21 said:

What is this Wolf and Atlas I keep reading about ? Where can i get more info ?

W.O.L.F. is a new mod under construction by RoverDude and Dr Krogg that abstracts resource logistics.  You can read back in this topic (use the Search function to look for "WOLF" or "W.O.L.F.") and watch RoverDude's Twitch channel for more information and to watch it work.  There's a WOLF play-through recording from last week you can watch, https://www.twitch.tv/roverdude/videos.

Altas, as far as I know, is the MKS-compatible 20m life support mod, also under construction for over a year.

Someone else might have more info.

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On 9/27/2019 at 6:09 PM, Terwin said:

Isn't this the new efficiency handling?  

Two separators produce more than one, but less than twice as much.

Is there a description of this? But anyway my problem isn't that the separators don't produce what they should (they do), but that they overheat doing so.

On 9/27/2019 at 6:09 PM, Terwin said:

With the maximum heat rejection for the drill, it does not matter how many MEU-500 you have attached, the drill can only cool at a certain rate, and once you hit that rate, additional cooling does nothing.

Have you verified that two or more MEU-500 will let the drills run more separators with less heat?  I would not expect that to work, and you can probably have several drills per MEU-500 with no reduction in efficiency.

You seem to confuse MEU-500 (the drill) and TCS (the ranger heat pump). But yes you're right, when I tried it again additional cooling systems (ranger TCS or radiators) didn't help actually. So the problem is that the drill can't move its heat fast enough to the cooling systems.

But still that doesn't make sense, why would the drill have three separator bits when you can only use one of them at full efficiency without it overheating?  That actually makes the bigger drills less efficient and more expensive than many smaller drills adding up to the same production capability, which the TCS can cool with no problems. I doubt that's the intended behavior.

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1 hour ago, jd284 said:

Is there a description of this? But anyway my problem isn't that the separators don't produce what they should (they do), but that they overheat doing so.

You seem to confuse MEU-500 (the drill) and TCS (the ranger heat pump). But yes you're right, when I tried it again additional cooling systems (ranger TCS or radiators) didn't help actually. So the problem is that the drill can't move its heat fast enough to the cooling systems.

But still that doesn't make sense, why would the drill have three separator bits when you can only use one of them at full efficiency without it overheating?  That actually makes the bigger drills less efficient and more expensive than many smaller drills adding up to the same production capability, which the TCS can cool with no problems. I doubt that's the intended behavior.

This seems to be this issue: https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/issues/1458. There's already a pull request with a fix pending. If you are in a hurry, you can change the numbers in the module-configs yourself. It worked for me.

Of course, I do not know if there is an intentional design decision behind, but I could not find a way to use more than one bay on the drills otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Rincewind1010 said:

This seems to be this issue: https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/issues/1458. There's already a pull request with a fix pending. If you are in a hurry, you can change the numbers in the module-configs yourself. It worked for me.

Of course, I do not know if there is an intentional design decision behind, but I could not find a way to use more than one bay on the drills otherwise.

Yeah, thanks, that was it. I did look at the issues but didn't realize it was a drill issue rather than a TCS issue...

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On 9/29/2019 at 1:34 PM, jd284 said:

Is there a description of this? But anyway my problem isn't that the separators don't produce what they should (they do), but that they overheat doing so.

You seem to confuse MEU-500 (the drill) and TCS (the ranger heat pump). But yes you're right, when I tried it again additional cooling systems (ranger TCS or radiators) didn't help actually. So the problem is that the drill can't move its heat fast enough to the cooling systems.

But still that doesn't make sense, why would the drill have three separator bits when you can only use one of them at full efficiency without it overheating?  That actually makes the bigger drills less efficient and more expensive than many smaller drills adding up to the same production capability, which the TCS can cool with no problems. I doubt that's the intended behavior.

it makes perfect sense.
if one drill makes one thing it's 100% on it so it makes it 100% efficiently

but if you want to make two things it's limited so it can only make them both half as efficiently as just the one and so on


as of me I'm lazy and just want a monstrous amount of resources for off-world construction so I went into the config files of the drills and multiplied the existing heat transfer amount by the number of bays, works like a charm:D

Edited by alien_wind
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Just a heads up RE: drills... since the overheating "bug" has been reported over and over and over again (it's not a bug), we are likely going to remove the multiple drill head concept in a future MKS release. With WOLF coming out of beta soon™, we expect the harvesters and hoppers in WOLF to be a more appealing way to do massive resource harvesting anyway vs. big, framerate-killing, kraken-enraging MKS bases with dozens of industrial strip miners.

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Just a comment really. I was watching your stream on WOLF (looks brilliant!) and I heard that you have placed a limitation on the Depot orbit locations. I remember one career play-through I could only find water at the Mun's South pole (a random game mirroring reality). The best place for the moon orbiting station in that game was then in a polar orbit. NASA's Gateway is projected to go into a polar orbit for this same reason.  I am not so sure I like the restriction on orbital inclination. I think the periapsis and apoapsis limits make a lot of sense. On the other hand, I recognise that inclination limits could introduce interesting game challenges when resources are only found at high latitudes. 

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4 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

Just a comment really. I was watching your stream on WOLF (looks brilliant!) and I heard that you have placed a limitation on the Depot orbit locations. I remember one career play-through I could only find water at the Mun's South pole (a random game mirroring reality). The best place for the moon orbiting station in that game was then in a polar orbit. NASA's Gateway is projected to go into a polar orbit for this same reason.  I am not so sure I like the restriction on orbital inclination. I think the periapsis and apoapsis limits make a lot of sense. On the other hand, I recognise that inclination limits could introduce interesting game challenges when resources are only found at high latitudes. 

There’s no restriction on inclination, just height and eccentricity.

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