[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[notthebobo]

9 minutes ago, JamesonKerbal said:

The MHU-100 basically destroys your resources. It consumes 5 "Abundance" and provides 2 "Available". The MHU-500 consumes 5 "Abundance" and produces 10 "Available".

Wow, I missed that minor but important difference. Thanks.

[DoktorKrogg]

2 hours ago, JamesonKerbal said:

To create resource routes between biomes requires Transport Credits.

Routes only cost TransportCredits if there is a mass loss between Point A and Point B (i.e. fuel was burned, stages were jettisoned, etc.)  It's entirely possible to setup free transport routes. 

[coyotesfrontier]

Can we get lights for the Atlas domes in the next update @RoverDude? It really bothers me that they don't when all of the other crewed parts do.

[RoverDude]

3 hours ago, JamesonKerbal said:

It's a pity we can't soft-start WOLF with reverse-hoppers that take a certain quantity of eg: MKS MaterialKits Per Hour and convert them into WOLF Material Kit Availability.

There is no biome on Minmus in my game which will allow the production of Transport Credits. Here's the minimal infrastructure required to support 1 Transport Module (43 parts, 157t):

To create resource routes between biomes requires Transport Credits. To produce Transport Credits requires all the resources.

Edit: forgot about the BioReactor which allows Agriculture Module -- Biomass --> BioReactor --> Chemicals or Polymers

Two answers.  First is to bootstrap from Kerbin (see the answer below).    Or, do free routes with electric rovers.

 

3 hours ago, TBenz said:

I believe your best bet for kickstarting production would be to establish a depot on Kerbin that can produce Transport Credits, and then set up a transport route from Kerbin to Minimus. (In fact, I assume that is one reason that Depots on Kerbin get material kits by default, to overcome the bootstrapping issue).

Once you have established yourself better on Minimus, you can see about cutting off your reliance on Kerbin entirely.

The way WOLF works and the way the stock resource system works means that "reverse hoppers" would be very easy to cheat with. 

Yep - remember that WOLF has no temporal requirement - so reverse bootstrapping would also be super weird.

3 hours ago, JamesonKerbal said:

Now why didn't I think of that? It does after all mirror the bootstrapping I do with MKS: shipping DIY kits and MaterialKits to Minmus to set up my ground assembly facility from where I set up the mining infrastructure, then the Material Kits production, then the Specialized Parts and Machinery.

Now I just need a way to destroy the infrastructure I've already built.

Save file editing can sort this out.

3 hours ago, notthebobo said:

Is it a bug that the WOLF MHU-100 Bulk Harvester (Harvester_175) does not require power while the  WOLF MHU-500 Bulk Harvester (Harvester_375) requires 5 power?

Or is there a design reason I'm missing?

Screenshot

Totally by design.  The infrastructure for power stations is pretty brutal - this lets you do bootstrapping a bit easier - at the cost of destroying your resources.

2 hours ago, JamesonKerbal said:

The MHU-100 basically destroys your resources. It consumes 5 "Abundance" and provides 2 "Available". The MHU-500 consumes 5 "Abundance" and produces 10 "Available".

I'm still figuring this out myself, but I can't think why I'd want to destroy that abundance given that shipping resources anywhere requires transport credits, and if you're going to set up a transport module you'll have the energy and kerbals to provide the inputs for the MHU-500 anyway.

Well, you can get free routes with electric rovers for one. And you may want to go straight from WOLF harvesting into a hopper.  It's also handy if you're on the edge where the loss of a resource vein is worth it vs bumping up infrastructure one more level.

2 hours ago, notthebobo said:

Wow, I missed that minor but important difference. Thanks.

Lots of details in this one

1 hour ago, coyotesfrontier said:

Can we get lights for the Atlas domes in the next update @RoverDude? It really bothers me that they don't when all of the other crewed parts do.

GitHub issue please

1 hour ago, DoktorKrogg said:

Routes only cost TransportCredits if there is a mass loss between Point A and Point B (i.e. fuel was burned, stages were jettisoned, etc.)  It's entirely possible to setup free transport routes. 

And now the secret is out!

[JamesonKerbal]

Ah nifty, I was thinking the "electric rovers" thing was a reference to things like the Karibou having extra logistics range.

Though now I guess I have to do a test flight with my cargo container being shipped by SSTO to orbit, transferred to the remote world by freighter, then transferred to the surface by lander. Undocking from the freighter is a lot of mass loss.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by JamesonKerbal

[Terwin]

4 hours ago, JamesonKerbal said:

Ah nifty, I was thinking the "electric rovers" thing was a reference to things like the Karibou having extra logistics range.

Though now I guess I have to do a test flight with my cargo container being shipped by SSTO to orbit, transferred to the remote world by freighter, then transferred to the surface by lander. Undocking from the freighter is a lot of mass loss.

 

If you are connecting surface->orbit, orbit-> orbit and orbit-> surface then you can wait to start the orbit -> surface leg until after you decouple, then you will not need to worry about the mass of your freighter as it is not part of the landing leg of the circuit.

If you are able to refuel on the surface, then you can probably even get a very low cost landing as well.

(a fueling depot in orbit might well allow a ssto to manage a very low cost surface->orbit leg as well, but I have not checked that, and the docking/undocking may affect the vessel ID or something) 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Terwin

[notthebobo]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:24 PM, RoverDude said:

@Kerbals_of_Steel - Atlas parts should have had a cradle - if not, something easy to sort with an optional mesh.  And yeah there will be additional ATLAS parts.  You already have harvesters that fit on them

 

@RoverDude, cradle for the Atlas domes appears to be missing. from both the MKS and Constellation packages.

[JamesonKerbal]

@RoverDude I'm running KSP on Apple Silicon so I am not sure I can help with coding. For documentation should I just start writing stuff up and put it in the GitHub wiki, would you prefer a concept brief first, or perhaps you have other preferences?

Also what do you use for building the models, just the free Unity tools?

 

[RoverDude]

23 minutes ago, notthebobo said:

@RoverDude, cradle for the Atlas domes appears to be missing. from both the MKS and Constellation packages.

Will look into that.

1 minute ago, JamesonKerbal said:

@RoverDude I'm running KSP on Apple Silicon so I am not sure I can help with coding. For documentation should I just start writing stuff up and put it in the GitHub wiki, would you prefer a concept brief first, or perhaps you have other preferences?

Also what do you use for building the models, just the free Unity tools?

 

I would say go for it on the wiki - I really appreciate it!  Model wise I use Blender then export via Unity.  Same workflow I do for stock

[JamesonKerbal]

I've submitted a skeleton WOLF walkthrough/documentation page on the UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS Github Wiki which I'll start fleshing out after Christmas.

It's showing in the topics/pages list down the side, I'll see if I can figure out how to hide it under the Tutorials page.

Edited December 24, 2020 by JamesonKerbal

[JamesonKerbal]

Use an electric rover, they said.

It'll be fun, they said.

This monstrosity coming to a WOLF tutorial near you soon  — depot detaches first, then the PDS & logistics hub detaches, and the remaining modules join the depot. This can drive to a new biome, scan it, deploy the depot, deploy the basic infrastructure, then set up transfer routes.

I'm no Shadowzone or Mark Thrimm, but I can still build monsters.

PS: Happy to see that the transport computer is happy to work with Bon Voyage.

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by JamesonKerbal

[rmaine]

I'm getting exactly nowhere in trying to experiment with WOLF. I have USI MKS 1.4.1 installed in a newish KSP 1.11 game. Used CKAN, so it ought to have all the dependencies. The intro tutorial linked above says you start by "rolling out" a "WOLF depot". I'm stuck already because I can't find this depot anywhere. This is a career game, so perhaps it requires some tech I haven't yet done, but I looked through all the parts and didn't see anything obvious. The tutorial mentioned starting with a probe core, so I tried starting to  build a craft with a HECS core. Right-clicking on that showed nothing interesting. I have a feeling I'm missing something pretty basic.

[edited] Ah. Eventually answered my own question. Pawing around, I found some mention of not supporting CKAN Installs. Well, ok. Went and grabbed the manual install files and used them instead, Aha. They have a whole WOLF directory that wasn't in my CKAN install. That makes me wonder why that wasn't there, but I accept that if you say you don't support CKAN installs, then you don't support CKAN installs. Oh, well.

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by rmaine
answer my own question.

[RoverDude]

6 hours ago, JamesonKerbal said:

Use an electric rover, they said.

It'll be fun, they said.

This monstrosity coming to a WOLF tutorial near you soon  — depot detaches first, then the PDS & logistics hub detaches, and the remaining modules join the depot. This can drive to a new biome, scan it, deploy the depot, deploy the basic infrastructure, then set up transfer routes.

I'm no Shadowzone or Mark Thrimm, but I can still build monsters.

PS: Happy to see that the transport computer is happy to work with Bon Voyage.

 

Very nice!

6 hours ago, rmaine said:

I'm getting exactly nowhere in trying to experiment with WOLF. I have USI MKS 1.4.1 installed in a newish KSP 1.11 game. Used CKAN, so it ought to have all the dependencies. The intro tutorial linked above says you start by "rolling out" a "WOLF depot". I'm stuck already because I can't find this depot anywhere. This is a career game, so perhaps it requires some tech I haven't yet done, but I looked through all the parts and didn't see anything obvious. The tutorial mentioned starting with a probe core, so I tried starting to  build a craft with a HECS core. Right-clicking on that showed nothing interesting. I have a feeling I'm missing something pretty basic.

[edited] Ah. Eventually answered my own question. Pawing around, I found some mention of not supporting CKAN Installs. Well, ok. Went and grabbed the manual install files and used them instead, Aha. They have a whole WOLF directory that wasn't in my CKAN install. That makes me wonder why that wasn't there, but I accept that if you say you don't support CKAN installs, then you don't support CKAN installs. Oh, well.

 

CKAN updated - had to include a new subfolder.

Edited December 25, 2020 by RoverDude

[HebaruSan]

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

CKAN updated - had to include a new subfolder.

There's a syntax error:

• https://github.com/BobPalmer/CKAN/pull/30

[Kerminator K-100]

Hi there. I'm new to MKS and am wondering why people keep talking about WOLF. I can't find any info about it and was hoping you guys could help me.

[eberkain]

1 minute ago, Kerminator1000 said:

Hi there. I'm new to MKS and am wondering why people keep talking about WOLF. I can't find any info about it and was hoping you guys could help me.

https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/WOLF-—-Industry-without-the-part-count

[mcortez]

@Kerminator1000 WOLF is a fairly new feature of USI/MKS, and adds a new mechanic as to how to generate resources from biomes and transport them around.  Unfortunately I think the twitch videos where Roverdude and his collaborator(s) previed and explained it have expired out and gone away...

The available information is at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zft2Ka9gubOYQf4CQgvReTxpnP8_LQYNyHouEjQZqjw/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BEqW60RrnYiVJKpAIFHAUqhdBrzbwwQ7KsaJ8hZjH4w/edit

https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/WOLF-—-Industry-without-the-part-count

 

Spoiler

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by mcortez

[notthebobo]

WOLF is a new resource transfer mechanism (and much more) that is bundled with MKS. 

 

Se the draft walk through  on the Wiki, plus the past few pages.

RoverDude himself provided two links: the WOLF Intro and the WOLF Transport - Credits and Routes.

[Kerminator K-100]

19 minutes ago, mcortez said:

-snip-

20 minutes ago, eberkain said:

-snip-

16 minutes ago, notthebobo said:

-snip-

Thank  you all for helping me!

[RoverDude]

So for those of you playing with the new systems... how do you like them so far?

 

 

[carapip501]

Very nice,  though I believe there's an error with the 3.75 fuel hopper in liquid fuel mode yielding 400 LF out with  5 fuel in.  The 2.5 fuel hopper yields 400 out with only 2 in. 

Also, while I'm not concerned about the models for the parts that vanish, I feel that hoppers are entirely too large for what I imagine they do in game, so I made a module manager patch to add hopper modules to the Kontainer tanks.

It would be nice to be able to adjust the number of resources the hoppers output; it seems to me that the hopper should be able to output as many as it has access to.

Other than that, nicely done and not nearly as scary as I first thought.

[Yuri kagarin56]

So is the new wolf system running in the background? Can I finally drop an industrial outpost on dunas north pole and have it consistently feed water to the equator in the background actively without having to switch to it to update values? 

[Terwin]

3 minutes ago, Yuri kagarin56 said:

So is the new wolf system running in the background? Can I finally drop an industrial outpost on dunas north pole and have it consistently feed water to the equator in the background actively without having to switch to it to update values? 

You will need to use the WOLF parts and transportation network, but that should work fine once it is set up.

Just make sure you have the GameData\UmbraSpaceIndustries\WOLF directory if you install MKS with ckan(it is available in the  mks 1.4 and 1.4.1 zip files from github)

[JamesonKerbal]

52 minutes ago, Yuri kagarin56 said:

So is the new wolf system running in the background? Can I finally drop an industrial outpost on dunas north pole and have it consistently feed water to the equator in the background actively without having to switch to it to update values? 

Yes, I'm up to that part of the WOLF tutorial, it should be out in the next few days.

The short version:

1. establish a WOLF depot at the North Pole to produce water,
2. set up a depot where you want the water delivered,
3. set up a route between the North Pole depot and your point of use depot, 
4. install a WOLF Hopper to convert WOLF resources to MKS resources

From there you only have to switch to the point-of-use facilities to update the inventory of water that will have been produced by the WOLF Hopper — noting that it's only a producer, you need to have adequate local storage to buffer between supply and local consumption.

 

[RoverDude]

To add- WOLF does not run in the background (other than hoppers) - the bulk of it is super easy on  the CPU and save file.