[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[adgriff2]

30 minutes ago, DStaal said:

You want this page:

https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Functions-(Manufacturing)

Wow... How did i miss that?! Thanks!

[RoverDude]

Ok... balance guidelines are out, along with a video covering how they work.  Go make stuff

 

https://youtu.be/a0oqO3xbswk

 

[jcthemc]

This might've been asked, but i can't find an answer for this in the documentation: Which of the MKS character classes are able to research science like a Scientist class character in a regular MPL-LG-2 lab?

[Merkov]

42 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Ok... balance guidelines are out, along with a video covering how they work.  Go make stuff

 

https://youtu.be/a0oqO3xbswk

 

This is fantastic!

One small question: USI-LS adds the option for the 1.25m stock ISRU to convert Ore to Fertilizer at a very low efficiency. This example isn't covered in the Detailed Conversions page of your spreadsheet. Are we basically to assume that MKS pretends that that option (Ore to Fertilizer) doesn't exist when balancing other parts, or was it just an oversight?

24 minutes ago, jcthemc said:

This might've been asked, but i can't find an answer for this in the documentation: Which of the MKS character classes are able to research science like a Scientist class character in a regular MPL-LG-2 lab?

Unless something changed while I wasn't looking, only scientists can do science. Generally, the MKS character classes only provide bonuses that are MKS-based, not stock mechanic-based. So, for example, scientists are still the only ones who can reset one-time use experiments, pilots are still the only ones who provide SAS capabilities, engineers are still the only ones who can re-pack parachutes, etc.. That's part of the reason they are still far more expensive than the various MKS classes.

[voicey99]

1 hour ago, Merkov said:

This is fantastic!

One small question: USI-LS adds the option for the 1.25m stock ISRU to convert Ore to Fertilizer at a very low efficiency. This example isn't covered in the Detailed Conversions page of your spreadsheet. Are we basically to assume that MKS pretends that that option (Ore to Fertilizer) doesn't exist when balancing other parts, or was it just an oversight?

Unless something changed while I wasn't looking, only scientists can do science. Generally, the MKS character classes only provide bonuses that are MKS-based, not stock mechanic-based. So, for example, scientists are still the only ones who can reset one-time use experiments, pilots are still the only ones who provide SAS capabilities, engineers are still the only ones who can re-pack parachutes, etc.. That's part of the reason they are still far more expensive than the various MKS classes.

Engineers' repair, drillboost and converterboost abilties can be done by mechanics, miners and technicians respectively. It's more a case of these three kerbals rolled into one for simplicity and less LS load, as with the other two main professions to a degree. Scientists and Pilots have eight "unique" skill-traits between them that cannot be done by any kolonists, engineers on the other hand can be entirely replaced.

(Unless, of course, you feel like editing Kolnonsts.cfg)

And @RoverDude might want to link that video in the OP. I never even knew he had a YT channel.

Edited February 18, 2017 by voicey99

[jd284]

Would it be outrageous to request higher values of MaxCoolant in the PDUs? The current values are fine when running at 100% or even 150%, but Bill has my Duna PDU running at 243% load. There's not enough coolant to remove the heat though, regardless of how many radiators or TCS I add to the vessel. Something like twice or three times the current values would be nice.

[sh1pman]

Just now, jd284 said:

Would it be outrageous to request higher values of MaxCoolant in the PDUs? The current values are fine when running at 100% or even 150%, but Bill has my Duna PDU running at 243% load. There's not enough coolant to remove the heat though, regardless of how many radiators or TCS I add to the vessel. Something like twice or three times the current values would be nice.

I'd request the same for small ore drills, they can't run more than one module without overheating.

[Tabris]

@RoverDude are there any plans to extend the Classes able to contribute to Ground Construction?

ie. Technicians & Mechanics

[Gilph]

On 2/17/2017 at 11:11 AM, Gilph said:

I made a save of this and started a new save with a new manufacturing base.  I upgraded four tanks from 2.5 to 3.75 (4500 to 15K capacity), Minerals being one of them. Redid these tests.  Chemical production now works, but not sure why.

I tested having the Minerals tank with warehouse enabled and put only 4200 in it. Since the bays consume about 3500 Minerals/day, it will do a PL sometime during the day.  Warped at KSC for 6 hours, returned to base, and it made the exact amount of Chemicals it should have.  Minerals were 7495, larger than when I started, so I know the PL transfer took place.

So, whats the difference? Both tanks have enough capacity for 6 hours, both did a PL, but only the larger tank worked.  The smaller may have needed to do 2 transfers, but no more than that.

Will put this on Github once I finish all the different scenarios on both saves.  Thanks for the help.

 

On 2/17/2017 at 1:32 PM, Terwin said:

@Gilph If your container starts full/empty then you may not see the behavior you were describing in just one day.  Remember that PL will only take the container to half full, so if you are making 75% of your container's capacity per day, then if it starts empty, it may be 2 days before anything is lost during catch-up.

I just tested a 16 day window.  Silicon went from 3300 to zero, Chemicals went from 3800 to 70. Bigger tanks didn't help.  Back to the drawing board.

[Merkov]

6 hours ago, voicey99 said:

Engineers' repair, drillboost and converterboost abilties can be done by mechanics, miners and technicians respectively. It's more a case of these three kerbals rolled into one for simplicity and less LS load, as with the other two main professions to a degree. Scientists and Pilots have eight "unique" skill-traits between them that cannot be done by any kolonists, engineers on the other hand can be entirely replaced.

(Unless, of course, you feel like editing Kolnonsts.cfg)

And @RoverDude might want to link that video in the OP. I never even knew he had a YT channel.

Oh yeah, I forgot that mechanics could repair. I need to keep up!

[RoverDude]

GitHub issues are the best way to see stuff looked at or stuff added (like skills and changing coolant levels).

RE PL, despite the fact that it was never meant to be used for just-in-time resource sharing, if you toss me a USI/Stock only save with a detailed description  I will take a look.

[ExavierMacbeth]

Out of curiosity, what do you guys use to resupply your MKS bases that are on other planets? I can't seem to design a cargo ship with good capacity & the habitability/supplies to keep the kerbals happy on interplanetary trips... not without ridiculous fuel requirements anyway. Anyone have any suggestions?

I know I could just do an unmanned ship but I want to build a reusable craft so it has to carry crew & be able to make round trips.

My mods are all USI (except FTT, not that i could launch the massive thing atm anyway), all NFT (and Nertea's other mods) and currently I am at early Nuclear (science 550-100 tier in tech tree).

 

EDIT: Ok this might not be as bad as I thought. My Minmus base is working is stable and generating me science & funds pretty well now. Maybe I will just build the obnoxious array & use GC to build it on Minmus and karbonite to fuel it there lol

I managed to get lucky on the resource distribution. A Great flats has everything (even if slow to gather) except Uraninite which i couldn't do anything with yet anyway.

Edited February 19, 2017 by ExavierMacbeth

[panarchist]

15 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Ok... balance guidelines are out, along with a video covering how they work.  Go make stuff

 

https://youtu.be/a0oqO3xbswk

 

Dude - YOU ROCK!  Thanks so much!

[WuphonsReach]

4 hours ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

Out of curiosity, what do you guys use to resupply your MKS bases that are on other planets? I can't seem to design a cargo ship with good capacity & the habitability/supplies to keep the kerbals happy on interplanetary trips... not without ridiculous fuel requirements anyway. Anyone have any suggestions?

- Mine Gypsum (or less preferentially, Minerals) using an automated lander with an uncrewed Logistics module and shove that Gypsum into Planetary Storage.  Doesn't matter where on the surface you put this, so use SCANSat maps to find a good concentration of Gypsum.  Revisit the lander every 30-200 days to do the "catch-up" mechanic and push the output for the last 50-200 days into PL storage.

(I usually have 3-4 automated landers spread out or clumped, all harvesting different raw materials, across the body's surface.)

- Have an Agricultural Support Module (ASM) in your base, staffed with Technician kerbals that turns Gypsum into Fertilizer.  Now your Agroponics modules will never run out of Fertilizer.  (How many agroponics modules, biologists/scientists, ASMs and technicians is up to you to discover.)

- You'll need a Logistics module, staffed by either a Quartermaster or Pilot to pull the Gypsum back out of PL storage.

At that point, you have infinite supplies.  However, I always ship in 300-1000 supplies per planned kerbal to jump-start the system with mass (supplies get turned into mulch at a 1:1 ratio, 10 mulch + 1 fert => 11 supplies).  You should also have at least one mulch tank (warehouse-enabled) that is pretty large so that you never lose mulch.  The more supplies and on-site storage I have, the less frequently I'll need to visit the base after it's up and running.  Adding recycler capacity can also extend the time between visits.

In short:

• Recyclers become mass efficient for longer duration missions.
• Agroponics modules become very mass efficient for longer duration missions.
• In-situ conversion of Gypsum -> Fertilizer is really useful.
• Hab multiplier (hab-common) modules are key and multiply base hab time (hab-quarters).

[Gilph]

17 hours ago, RoverDude said:

RE PL, despite the fact that it was never meant to be used for just-in-time resource sharing, if you toss me a USI/Stock only save with a detailed description  I will take a look.

Thanks, making it now...have to check the issue is also on the latest release before I send.

Not really a JIT resource issue, it's a plain old production issue.  Minerals are shipped by PL, but Silicon is being produced on the same base, and both have the same problem of decreasing when they should be increasing during catchup. None of the other production resources has this issue.

Actually, the only thing they have in common is that they are the only ones that use more than one bay. So, instead of 1 refinery having all 3 bays set to Minerals, I'll spread them out over the three refineries to make sure no resource is using more than one bay per refinery.

Thanks

 

Edit#1: Test #1 worked. Reconfigured the bays so that Chemicals/Silicon use one bay in 3 refineries instead of 3 bays in one refinery.  Warped 10 days. Everything looks fine, even though I started with Minerals/Silicates tanks almost empty.  Looks like the load problem that was fixed a while ago, only just in catch up. Need to do a few more things to see if it's the issue.

 

Edit#2: Looks like I cannot reproduce the issue anymore since I did the EVA to reconfigure the bays.  Set them back to their original settings (3 bays in one refinery) and everything works.  Did it on my original career save also, and it cleared it up also.  Doing it on all my bases, just in case.  Thanks for everyone's help.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Gilph

[voicey99]

4 hours ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

Out of curiosity, what do you guys use to resupply your MKS bases that are on other planets? I can't seem to design a cargo ship with good capacity & the habitability/supplies to keep the kerbals happy on interplanetary trips... not without ridiculous fuel requirements anyway. Anyone have any suggestions?

I know I could just do an unmanned ship but I want to build a reusable craft so it has to carry crew & be able to make round trips.

My mods are all USI (except FTT, not that i could launch the massive thing atm anyway), all NFT (and Nertea's other mods) and currently I am at early Nuclear (science 550-100 tier in tech tree).

 

EDIT: Ok this might not be as bad as I thought. My Minmus base is working is stable and generating me science & funds pretty well now. Maybe I will just build the obnoxious array & use GC to build it on Minmus and karbonite to fuel it there lol

I managed to get lucky on the resource distribution. A Great flats has everything (even if slow to gather) except Uraninite which i couldn't do anything with yet anyway.

I believe @dboi88 is making a (still indev) mod along those lines i.e. large-scale resupplying of extraplanetary bases.

Once you get that gypsum->fertiliser->food production line set up, all that really matters is hab time. I would go for the absolute best recycler (i.e. the water-fuelled kerbitat) since water should be very common (though bizarrely in my save water had a Minmus average abundance of 0.3% despite the ENTIRE MOON being made of ice), but the RT-5000 is generally the next best suited to colonies. I also recommend giving all your bases a hab time of at least 10x the average trip length+launch window gap to the relevant planet, since you don't want to be constantly shuttling homesick kolonists to and from Kerbin and keeping tract of loads of launch windows and who is where.

[Kerbal101]

4 hours ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

I know I could just do an unmanned ship but I want to build a reusable craft so it has to carry crew & be able to make round trips.

Slapping the amount of fuel to get exactly the same minimally reasonable for space travels TWR number of 0.25 (from KER), I have made a table of deltaV for all stock non-atmospheric engines.

The maximum deltaV without any tricks for 0.25 TWR is 11800 using LV-N and 20300 using Dawn.

[Gilph]

1 minute ago, voicey99 said:

I would go for the absolute best recycler (i.e. the water-fuelled kerbitat) since water should be very common (though bizarrely in my save water had a Minmus average abundance of 0.3% despite the ENTIRE MOON being made of ice),

Welcome to my universe.  Cant tell you how much that liquided me off. Thank goodness (mine was also on Great Flats) the hydrates were pretty good.  Shipped 2 ASMs that only did water production, but that was not enough to use the purifier.

[ExavierMacbeth]

I appreciate the replies but I think you guys missed the question a bit. I have no problems with the Supplies/food on the base itself. Thats easy and the first thing I set up along with a medical bay to keep habitation reset when I need to.

The problem is getting the depleatables like Machinery, Metalkits, & Colony Supplies to the place periodically since I am not going to set up a full mining/manufacturing chain on the location. I have a full manufacturing base (sorta) online on Minmus which will also be the refueling point for the cargo ship.

I just can't come up with a design that will let me haul a significant amount of materials to justify a reusable transport craft. If i am only moving 1-2 Kontainers worth of cargo I may as well just strap a probe core & engines on the Kontainers and launch them as one way shots... and deconstruct them onsite for metalkits. I was looking for ideas on a heavier transport ships I can reuse (and probably use for other cargo/delivery missions as needed). Everything I try seems to require something like 20+ tanks of fuel just to move 6 Kontainers & the life support/habitation equipment to keep the crew active for the trip.

Should I even bother keeping the kerbals happy for the trip out?

[Kerbal101]

4 minutes ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

I just can't come up with a design that will let me haul a significant amount of materials to justify a reusable transport craft. If i am only moving 1-2 Kontainers worth of cargo I may as well just strap a probe core & engines on the Kontainers and launch them as one way shots... and deconstruct them onsite for metalkits. I was looking for ideas on a heavier transport ships I can reuse (and probably use for other cargo/delivery missions as needed). Everything I try seems to require something like 20+ tanks of fuel just to move 6 Kontainers & the life support/habitation equipment to keep the crew active for the trip.

My thread up.

[dboi88]

20 minutes ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

I appreciate the replies but I think you guys missed the question a bit. I have no problems with the Supplies/food on the base itself. Thats easy and the first thing I set up along with a medical bay to keep habitation reset when I need to.

The problem is getting the depleatables like Machinery, Metalkits, & Colony Supplies to the place periodically since I am not going to set up a full mining/manufacturing chain on the location. I have a full manufacturing base (sorta) online on Minmus which will also be the refueling point for the cargo ship.

I just can't come up with a design that will let me haul a significant amount of materials to justify a reusable transport craft. If i am only moving 1-2 Kontainers worth of cargo I may as well just strap a probe core & engines on the Kontainers and launch them as one way shots... and deconstruct them onsite for metalkits. I was looking for ideas on a heavier transport ships I can reuse (and probably use for other cargo/delivery missions as needed). Everything I try seems to require something like 20+ tanks of fuel just to move 6 Kontainers & the life support/habitation equipment to keep the crew active for the trip.

Should I even bother keeping the kerbals happy for the trip out?

Roverdudes transport technologies mod works well for smaller cargo loads, like a couple of kontainers worth but sounds like you want to move a lot more than that and the relevant crew along with it. Which is exactly the problem that led me to starting my mod, keep your eye on it, it will allow you to transport 6 full 5m kontainers of cargo, a full habitation set up along with lots of other cool modules. It'll also have near 10,000dv with 1twr fully loaded so will get you anywhere in the system with reasonable burn times.

Edited February 19, 2017 by dboi88
spelling

[Gilph]

3 minutes ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

I appreciate the replies but I think you guys missed the question a bit. I have no problems with the Supplies/food on the base itself. Thats easy and the first thing I set up along with a medical bay to keep habitation reset when I need to.

The problem is getting the depleatables like Machinery, Metalkits, & Colony Supplies to the place periodically since I am not going to set up a full mining/manufacturing chain on the location. I have a full manufacturing base (sorta) online on Minmus which will also be the refueling point for the cargo ship.

I just can't come up with a design that will let me haul a significant amount of materials to justify a reusable transport craft. If i am only moving 1-2 Kontainers worth of cargo I may as well just strap a probe core & engines on the Kontainers and launch them as one way shots... and deconstruct them onsite for metalkits. I was looking for ideas on a heavier transport ships I can reuse (and probably use for other cargo/delivery missions as needed). Everything I try seems to require something like 20+ tanks of fuel just to move 6 Kontainers & the life support/habitation equipment to keep the crew active for the trip.

Should I even bother keeping the kerbals happy for the trip out?

Not sure what your target state is or how far away you wish to go

With Machinery, it's very heavy but consumed pretty slowly.  You may not need to send a lot.  Also, there are a few Tundras that dont use it at all, so the part is heavy.  But that's a one way problem instead of a round trip problem. I would have a disposable of large MaterialKits in the beginning, to get everything inflated and configured. Have a smaller reusable ship with Machinery and CS, because they dont really get consumed all that quickly 

[ExavierMacbeth]

hmm. guess i will just have to build the core of the ship & keep it limited to 2 Kontainers till I can get better engine tech. CS isn't that big of a problem since the interstellar ship has a medbay itself so I can just bleed off its storage at the delivery location.

Oh well at least I am making the thing modular as heck. Habitation+Reactor : Medbay : LS Storage : Engine with each section having 2 docking ports for side modules such as Fuel or Cargo Pods. But i can undock and change out (or lengthen it) as needed for the mission. Maybe I will post an image of it once I get it working even though its going to look abnoxious running off a Karbonite Engines fueled by Kontainer fuel pods. My LV-Ns are modified by NFE/Kerbal Atomics so they are trickier to use so trying to get it working so I can also use it to gether science to unlock better nukes or plasma engines... or Karbonite Fusion which would solve my problem lol

 

EDIT: Now back to delivering my more powerful fission reactor to Minmus so It can actually play full manufacturing base... I mis-dropped it and have to drive it 2km to the base. Glad i made it a 2.5m Rover lol

Edited February 19, 2017 by ExavierMacbeth

[voicey99]

1 hour ago, ExavierMacbeth said:

EDIT: Now back to delivering my more powerful fission reactor to Minmus so It can actually play full manufacturing base... I mis-dropped it and have to drive it 2km to the base. Glad i made it a 2.5m Rover lol

BTW if you aren't manufacturing uranium yet and want to save cash on reactor fuel, Near Future Solar has some massive solar arrays that should be sufficient to take over during the day and give the reactors a break.

[ExavierMacbeth]

Hah haven't unlocked those yet. I've been making do with sending up the biggest possible NFE reactor I can, or a cluster of smaller ones, and then setting the output to 40% or so then turning off anything I don't need. Gives the core a 7-25 year lifespan... Pretty sure I will have reprocessing or fuel manufacturing by then

 

And i apparently typoed the distance. I had to drive the thing 20km. Least it was across the Minmus flats and its not like i was going to run out of power while doing it... The reactor I used could generate 2000/s for the probe core to drink up lol