[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[dboi88]

6 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Yeah. What makes it pretty stupid IMO is that less storage space is actually better... Because if I have that 3000 units of supplies and only 2000 units of storage space then 1000 units are pushed in to the PL storage and are ready to be pulled out right? But if I have a bigger container (for example 2.5m kontainer is 16000 units) I have to manufacture 16000 unkts of supplies before anything can be pulled right? So you should only ever use the smallest konrainers if that is the case...

Now I already have a 2.5m kontainer for supplies in my main base (which is of course nowhere near full...) because it also works as a structural element if my mining module there and I thought having plenty of storage space would be good. So that means that I will not be able to get ANY supplies in to the PL storage in a loooong time. If I had only taken the 1.25m kontainer I could soon start pushing supplies and everything would be fine

 

 

You simple used the wrong part for the job. Nothing wrong with that, you didn't previously understand the mechanic. But that doesn't 1 make it stupid or 2 give any basis to change it for you.

There's still plenty of uses for all sized containers. Plus remember they are shipping containers. We have plenty of other kontainers more appropriate for storage on basis.

[voicey99]

I generally find larger kontainers more useful for interplanetary shipping, and the tiny supply-paks as base storage. As long as there is a kontainer/other storage module on the base that can hold 12hrs worth of production, there is no need for anything bigger.

Just remember shipping with the big kontainers can get expensive (cost me 400K to ship 16K machinery to Minmus).

[dboi88]

@tseitsei89 Can you clarify what distance apart the two bases are? If within 150m you can use the scavenging logistics mechanic which will do direct transfers between the two completely negating the issues with PL. This range can be extended to 2km using the Karibou Rover.

A guide to Scavenging

 

[Sol Invictus]

I understand that Kerbalism is listed as incompatible, because USI Kolonization parts are not configured to utilize it's life support system. However, I intend to use Kerbalism TAC profile, which should enable me to replace Kerbalism life support feature with TAC Life Support. Since USI Kolonization supports TAC-LS, am I safe to assume that such combination will be compatible?

Edited January 11, 2017 by Sol Invictus

[RoverDude]

Kerbalism is incompatible because it overrides some core stock systems that MKS depends on.  Has nothing to do with life support.

@tseitsei89 - please check the attitude a bit.  You will find people more receptive if you don't start off by insulting people or their work.

[LatiMacciato]

Spoiler

6 hours ago, LatiMacciato said:

quick question: is the MEU-100 Pulse Drill (the small one) supposed to have square clouds while active and animating plus a slight framerate drop? (I possibly stumbled upon a firespitter bug aswell)

regards

 

I hope I'm not missing something .. it should be like any other drill but it looks like just grey squares (still unsure if its MKS only bug or anything else)

[dboi88]

6 minutes ago, LatiMacciato said:

  Hide contents

 

I hope I'm not missing something .. it should be like any other drill but it looks like just grey squares (still unsure if its MKS only bug or anything else)

I doubt it is supposed to be that way. Try a clean install with only USI mods installed and see if it is still present.

[LatiMacciato]

Just now, dboi88 said:

I doubt it is supposed to be that way. Try a clean install with only USI mods installed and see if it is still present.

I just did that, no change .. but will do that again and provide a screenshot, if it persists.

[dboi88]

1 minute ago, LatiMacciato said:

I just did that, no change .. but will do that again and provide a screenshot, if it persists.

If you can also provide a save file with a craft located somewhere that is currently experiencing the issue then that'll make troubleshooting/confirming the bug even easier.

[Parmenio]

12 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Now I already have a 2.5m kontainer for supplies in my main base (which is of course nowhere near full...) because it also works as a structural element if my mining module there and I thought having plenty of storage space would be good. So that means that I will not be able to get ANY supplies in to the PL storage in a loooong time. If I had only taken the 1.25m kontainer I could soon start pushing supplies and everything would be fine

@tseitsei89, You can still do everything you want without any changes to the mod and still use that 2.5m kontainer. But, what you will need to do is have a design that lets you actively push supplies into planetary logistics. What you say is true, it will take a long time to push supplies into PL if you rely on just the passive push. 

 

Not sure how your base is designed, but here's a simple base setup that would do what you want with two base structures:

1) one of the planetary logistic modules (Duna Logistics or Tundra Pioneer) with a quartermaster and a small kontainer for supplies (ISM is great for this)

2) an agro-producing module with a large (as large as you want) kontainer attached for holding supplies

These structures, of course, need to have power and be 150 m from each other. Now, when you have enough supplies in the agro structure, you simply use local logistics to push the extra supplies into the small container in the logistics structure. These will quickly overflow to planetary logistics which means any remote mining rig will be able to start pulling supplies. 

If you want to speed up the process of getting supplies into PL, then just drop a ship near the base with supplies and use local logistics to push them into the logistics structure. 

[voicey99]

7 hours ago, LatiMacciato said:

--is the MEU-100 Pulse Drill (the small one) supposed to have square clouds while active and animating plus a slight framerate drop?--

As I am also having this bug (just with the ME-100. the other two are fine), I'm going to provide my own screenshot and save as well.

[dboi88]

@tseitsei89 & @Parmenio here is an even simpler way. Put a small storage container on your main base, something like a redi pack. Turn off warehouse on your kontainer and then trf resources into the small kontainer. The extra will dump to PL but will not come back because warehouse has been turned off on the large container. You can then completely control how much is  sent to PL by doing this. You can do this with KIS/KAS by sending a KIS kontainer with a new storage tank.

[Parmenio]

7 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

@tseitsei89 & @Parmenio here is an even simpler way. Put a small storage container on your main base, something like a redi pack. Turn off warehouse on your kontainer and then trf resources into the small kontainer. The extra will dump to PL but will not come back because warehouse has been turned off on the large container. You can then completely control how much is  sent to PL by doing this. You can do this with KIS/KAS by sending a KIS kontainer with a new storage tank.

Yes, but you would have to have a PL module on that main base, correct? I stay away from large, connected bases, too many Kraken nightmares in the past. 

[Kaa253]

46 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

As I am also having this bug (just with the ME-100. the other two are fine), I'm going to provide my own screenshot and save as well.

I have been getting this for a long time and also some square smoke in the plume of certain rocket engines. Curious to know, are you using smokescreen, real plumes? In my case I always assumed the bug was with them (with no real evidence though).

[dboi88]

27 minutes ago, Parmenio said:

Yes, but you would have to have a PL module on that main base, correct? I stay away from large, connected bases, too many Kraken nightmares in the past. 

Correct, i believe he already has one at either end.

To be honest i have to stay away from lots of small none connected bases to avoid slow frame rates.

[voicey99]

20 minutes ago, Kaa253 said:

I have been getting this for a long time and also some square smoke in the plume of certain rocket engines. Curious to know, are you using smokescreen, real plumes? In my case I always assumed the bug was with them.

Neither. I imagine it's just a missing particle texture.

[tseitsei89]

8 hours ago, dboi88 said:

You simple used the wrong part for the job. Nothing wrong with that, you didn't previously understand the mechanic. But that doesn't 1 make it stupid or 2 give any basis to change it for you.

There's still plenty of uses for all sized containers. Plus remember they are shipping containers. We have plenty of other kontainers more appropriate for storage on basis.

Nonono. Dont even go there. I am not one of those guys who say every feature and mechanic is "stupid" if they dont understand it and/or it makes the game harder.

I say this is a "stupid" mechanic because IMO it doesn't make any sense. I men why wouldn't a kerbal pilot (who is handling the PL logistics from his logistics module) take supplies out of the larger container and ship them to another base but he can take them if you have a smaller container... Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Now if there is some kind of a coding reason why a better mechanic is hard/impossible to implement I completely understand the choice of current mechanic then.

6 hours ago, dboi88 said:

@tseitsei89 Can you clarify what distance apart the two bases are? If within 150m you can use the scavenging logistics mechanic which will do direct transfers between the two completely negating the issues with PL. This range can be extended to 2km using the Karibou Rover.

A guide to Scavenging

 

Much further away than 2km.

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Kerbalism is incompatible because it overrides some core stock systems that MKS depends on.  Has nothing to do with life support.

@tseitsei89 - please check the attitude a bit.  You will find people more receptive if you don't start off by insulting people or their work.

Sorry if I insulted you. I think this (and other mods of yours) are amazing! This one feature just doesn't make a lot of sense to me but then again I have absolutely no idea how hard/impossible it would be to implement a better system...

I was imagining it works pretty much like resources on the kontainers connected to PL logistics would be common for all bases and any base could use (pull) them as needed. 

What I think would be a nice feature is something like having a limiter on every container (one more slider on the right click menu) that basically says "keep container filled to this limit and push rest to PL storage" and we could freely change this limiter as we want. And in addition to that it would be nice if we could actively push resources to planetary storage like we can transfer resources to different parts of the ship (right click both and then push out or pull in). But this I already knew wouldn't work currently.

Again sorry if I insulted you or your work. 

1 hour ago, dboi88 said:

@tseitsei89 & @Parmenio here is an even simpler way. Put a small storage container on your main base, something like a redi pack. Turn off warehouse on your kontainer and then trf resources into the small kontainer. The extra will dump to PL but will not come back because warehouse has been turned off on the large container. You can then completely control how much is  sent to PL by doing this. You can do this with KIS/KAS by sending a KIS kontainer with a new storage tank.

Hmm... An interesting idea  thanks

Edited January 11, 2017 by tseitsei89

[realHuman]

Small Gameplay Mechanics Bug

While playing Career mode with @RoverDude's constellation pack installed, I accepted a mission to rescue a kerbal from Iota (GPP). The rescue mission isn't a recover kerbal && parts mission, just the kerbal. Linked below is a screenshot where you can see that the kerbal spawned inside an observation cupola but because it has no hatch I can not get them out. 

https://imgur.com/a/55W28

I'm wondering if there is a certain flag for the cupolas or any other habitable parts that have no hatch and a way to turn the spawn flag off for these types of mission. It's not critical but just wanted to throw that out there.

I'm going to send up another rocket with a claw to retrieve this unfortunate kerbal, who in all honesty I'm not sure how they got in the cupola to begin with. 

Thank you roverdude for all the amazing work that you do! I'm having a good deal of fun learning how to use your mods. If I can provide any other helpful information let me know.

Edited January 11, 2017 by realHuman

[Terwin]

1 hour ago, tseitsei89 said:

I say this is a "stupid" mechanic because IMO it doesn't make any sense. I men why wouldn't a kerbal pilot (who is handling the PL logistics from his logistics module) take supplies out of the larger container and ship them to another base but he can take them if you have a smaller container... Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

This mechanic is identical for all physical resources, not just supplies.

As a catch-up tick is 6 hours, you should have capacity for 6 hours worth of processing at each step if you intend to be away from a base for extended periods(like more than a kerbal day).  So if you have a large container that has it's warehouse flag turned on, then it is expected that you feel the need to have that much storage on hand, and thus may reasonably expect it to stay at least half full if the local production exceeds the local consumption, allowing the next step to function properly, even if pulls from the planetary warehouse only happen every 6 hours. 

Now, if you have a rover, that 'local' can be up to 2km and everyone will pull out whatever they need as they need it.

If you are talking about shipping materials around the planet, why should they engage in long-distance trucking of something that is expected to be needed locally?

 

Personally, I find that having a Nom-o-matic 2500 at any location where I have kerbals to be a good policy, meaning that I have a reasonable window to make deliveries, and the raw materials being delivered only have ~1/11th of the mass of the supplies that would be needed.

 

I did have one outpost that was starting to run low on fertilizer, so at another colony on the same body that was producing fertlizer(if slower than I had expected at that time), I transferred everything out of a supplies/mulch/fertilizer inflatable storage dome, undeployed it, and put all the fertilizer back in(over-flowing the ~20 unit capacity and sending most of it into the planetary stockpiles).  After that I went to the colony running low, and had them fill up before I went back to re-inflate the dome.

Generally I use those shipping crates for 2 things:

1) transferring resources between bodies(like sending out machinery, specialized parts, or material kits to a new colony, then re-painting them and sending the transport back full of rare metals/minerals to pay for the shipment)

2) a single 2.5m crate for storing material kits on bases where I have one or more habitation modules I need to inflate(the 16K unit volume will let me fill it to 8K without sending it off to the Plantetary stockpile, and I can then expand the Habitation unit in question)

 

For everything else I find those inflatable domes to work much better.

 

 

[goldenpsp]

14 minutes ago, realHuman said:

Small Gameplay Mechanics Bug

While playing Career mode with @RoverDude's constellation pack installed, I accepted a mission to rescue a kerbal from Iota (GPP). The rescue mission isn't a recover kerbal && parts mission, just the kerbal. Linked below is a screenshot where you can see that the kerbal spawned inside an observation cupola but because it has no hatch I can not get them out. 

https://imgur.com/a/55W28

I'm wondering if there is a certain flag for the cupolas or any other habitable parts that have no hatch and a way to turn the spawn flag off for these types of mission. It's not critical but just wanted to throw that out there.

I'm going to send up another rocket with a claw to retrieve this unfortunate kerbal, who in all honesty I'm not sure how they got in the cupola to begin with. 

Thank you roverdude for all the amazing work that you do! I'm having a good deal of fun learning how to use your mods. If I can provide any other helpful information let me know.

Known issue.  It is a KSP issue as the core game picks any part with crew seats.  There is a mod (rescue pod validator?) which works to exclude invalid parts and works quite well to combat this.

[Kobymaru]

On my base, all drills stop working when the vessels are loaded. That is really annoying. Is there a fix or workaround for that?

[realHuman]

3 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

Known issue.  It is a KSP issue as the core game picks any part with crew seats.  There is a mod (rescue pod validator?) which works to exclude invalid parts and works quite well to combat this.

Gotcha. Thanks for the quick response! Installing that mod now. 
 

 

[voicey99]

10 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Known issue.  It is a KSP issue as the core game picks any part with crew seats.  There is a mod (rescue pod validator?) which works to exclude invalid parts and works quite well to combat this.

That's this mod. The mod comes with only ~10 vanilla modules listed, so to add mod parts to the list of acceptable spawnpoints, add the line "part = [name of part]" to RescuePods.cfg in the mod folder. For example. to allow Kerbals to spawn in the Karibou cab, just add "part = KER_RoverCab" to the list (the cfg names for each part should be in their part config files).

On a side note, the part description for the cupola actually says "don't ask how they get in here"

(Ninja'd!)

Edited January 11, 2017 by voicey99

[DStaal]

2 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Nonono. Dont even go there. I am not one of those guys who say every feature and mechanic is "stupid" if they dont understand it and/or it makes the game harder.

I say this is a "stupid" mechanic because IMO it doesn't make any sense. I men why wouldn't a kerbal pilot (who is handling the PL logistics from his logistics module) take supplies out of the larger container and ship them to another base but he can take them if you have a smaller container... Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Now if there is some kind of a coding reason why a better mechanic is hard/impossible to implement I completely understand the choice of current mechanic then.

Actually, this mechanic works suspiciously like real life...  Warehouses tend to be kept fairly full, no matter the size of the warehouse.  If you have a smaller one, you tend to ship stuff in/out of it more, all else being equal.

There's all kinds of programming and gameplay reasons why it is the way it is, but it's actually *realistic.* 

[dboi88]

2 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Nonono. Dont even go there. I am not one of those guys who say every feature and mechanic is "stupid" if they dont understand it and/or it makes the game harder.

ok . . . .

2 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

I say this is a "stupid" mechanic because IMO it doesn't make any sense. I men why wouldn't a kerbal pilot (who is handling the PL logistics from his logistics module) take supplies out of the larger container and ship them to another base but he can take them if you have a smaller container... Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Because that's simply not what is happening. He's is NOT shipping them to another base EVER no matter the size of the container.

Planetary Logistics

If the warehouse has too much stuff, it puts it in storage. If it has too little, it pulls it out. It's a warehouse you send your extra too, so that 1, it isn't wasted, 2 you can use it elsewhere.

Scavenging

When a vessel is short on stuff, the Kerbals can grab what they need from nearby vessels and debris. This is simulating Kerbals running around going about their daily business. 

It's reasonable to expect a Kerbal not to die from lack of supplies when they are next door, it's also reasonable to get the supplies from 2km away when there is a rover sat outside for him to use.

Now do you consider it reasonable that they would drive what could be 100's of km to deliver a few supplies? I hope not.

It's reasonable to expect a Crew to ship off their extra resources to be stored somewhere. It's reasonable to expect a crew to put in an order for more resources out of the stockpile when needed. But is it reasonable from a game play perspective that your crew would automatically manage complex delivery networks planet wide without any intervention? 

You might not have realized but what you were actually suggesting is to extend Scavenging to be planet wide. Which in my opinion and i'm sure i'm not alone would be massively overpowered.

3 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Now if there is some kind of a coding reason why a better mechanic is hard/impossible to implement I completely understand the choice of current mechanic then.

It's not a case of a coding problem, i'm sure of that. It's a Logical problem, no one likes illogical mechanics. In my opinion playing with Scavening planetwide would be horrible. I'd have resources being sent all over the place and i'd never know where they went. Bear in mind i currently have 23 bases across Minmus, but a good test of any mechanic is to scale it up or down, it should always work. 

The real beauty of RoverDude's logistics mechanics is that they follow such simple rules and you'd have to start adding in tweaks and exceptions to make it work over longer distances without causing other problems, but then those rules would cause further problems and it snowballs from there.

3 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

What I think would be a nice feature is something like having a limiter on every container (one more slider on the right click menu) that basically says "keep container filled to this limit and push rest to PL storage" and we could freely change this limiter as we want. And in addition to that it would be nice if we could actively push resources to planetary storage like we can transfer resources to different parts of the ship (right click both and then push out or pull in). But this I already knew wouldn't work currently.

This is a nice idea, but ultimately i can't accept that this isn't anything other than a craft and base design issue.

3 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Hmm... An interesting idea  thanks

Glad you think so. I honestly think this is your best idea. I hope it works out for you.