[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[voicey99]

4 minutes ago, N3N said:

OK, sorry, I just wanted to do something productive.

And thought it may be a cool project.

So that the next USI release will be even greater.

 

Can I help you somewhere else than?

My technical expertise is limited to configuration files and making small code changes, and what I think that person was requesting requires more skill than I have. I also deal in mainly MKS, and generally make contributions when I see something I think something is missing that I can do myself-I don't really use any other USI mods to the same extent so I don't know what they need. I can help with other mods when it's reasonable simple stuff, but I'm no expert and don't get the use out of them to really know what I should be doing with them.

[DStaal]

15 minutes ago, N3N said:

OK, sorry, I just wanted to do something productive.

And thought it may be a cool project.

So that the next USI release will be even greater.

 

Can I help you somewhere else than?

Honestly, if you want to be *really* helpful for USI stuff: Learn how to work the balance spreadsheet and start supplying patches to other mods that could use support.  (Especially USI-LS.)  I'm working on KPBS, but I know there are lots of others that could use some tweaking.

[voicey99]

Just now, DStaal said:

Honestly, if you want to be *really* helpful for USI stuff: Learn how to work the balance spreadsheet and start supplying patches to other mods that could use support.  (Especially USI-LS.)  I'm working on KPBS, but I know there are lots of others that could use some tweaking.

Yep. I recently patched LS support into SXT Continued, so it's definitely useful to do that. I did forget to add the SXT habring, though, and also didn't know of the existence of the balance sheet so i kinda went with whatever I thought looked balanced according to mass and size 

[N3N]

23 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

My technical expertise is limited to configuration files and making small code changes, and what I think that person was requesting requires more skill than I have. I also deal in mainly MKS, and generally make contributions when I see something I think something is missing that I can do myself-I don't really use any other USI mods to the same extent so I don't know what they need. I can help with other mods when it's reasonable simple stuff, but I'm no expert and don't get the use out of them to really know what I should be doing with them.

OK...

Don't know what this should tell me, sorry. o_O

(I can try it or can I only do what you want? )

 

-----

Maybe a little Information about me:

I use many USI mods and I think they're great, so I want to help to make them even better.

(I play KSP since V0.18.3 as Demo and bought it with V0.21.1 and played since than with mods.)

(But I don't have much time over the year to play, only some weeks/months per year... )

 

I'm studying Electrical Engineering and Information Technology and I can code: Assembler, C, Java, LaTeX, HTML, SQL, WQL, Powershell, Linux Shell.

(Since now I only read/understood C++/C#, maybe I should learn this for KSP?)

-----

 

13 minutes ago, DStaal said:

Honestly, if you want to be *really* helpful for USI stuff: Learn how to work the balance spreadsheet and start supplying patches to other mods that could use support.  (Especially USI-LS.)  I'm working on KPBS, but I know there are lots of others that could use some tweaking.

I saw that video some week ago, maybe I try to make USI-LS for SSTU better and change the "RocketParts" to "MaterialKits" on the Inflatables, when MKS is installed and EL not.

 

By the way, shouldn't the MKS (legacy) EL-parts be only loaded, when EL is installed?

 

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by N3N

[voicey99]

10 minutes ago, N3N said:

Maybe a little Information about me:

I use many USI mods and I think they're great, so I want to help to make them even better.

(I play KSP since V0.18.3 as Demo and bought it with V0.21.1 and played since than with mods.)

(But I don't have much time over the year to play, only some weeks/months per year... )

 

I'm studying Electrical Engineering and Information Technology and I can code: Assembler, C, Java, LaTeX, HTML, SQL, WQL, Powershell, Linux Shell.

(Since now I only read/understood C++/C#, maybe I should learn this for KSP?)

KSP is in C#, and if you know how to C# then RD is always looking for helpers. If you're going to be contributing regularly you might want to become a collaborator so you can get involved in the future roadmap and save you loads of pull requests.

What I meant was that I don't really have a clue what I'm doing nor do I have a plan . I do know MKS mechanics fairly well and some basic balance and configuration info, but nowhere near enough to be a regular contributor.

10 minutes ago, N3N said:

By the way, shouldn't the MKS (legacy) EL-parts be only loaded, when EL is installed?

They (along with the rest of the EPL support) are going to be depreciated very soon so you won't have to worry about them for long. If you really don't want them then use EL-MKS Departsing or Janitor's Closet (both on ckan, the former will block just those two parts while the latter will let you block any part).

Edited May 10, 2017 by voicey99

[sjbuggs]

I don't know if this has been asked before, but as a feature request:  Would it be possible to get a version of the MLPS in the a tundra module form factor?  I'm personally not a fan of how the stock parts gel with the tundra series so being able to exclude that stock part would be nice.

The ranger lab exists, but doesn't work as well in a space station design for me.

[TauPhraim]

On 5/9/2017 at 11:49 PM, voicey99 said:

It's definitely something planet-related as all I did was hyperedit it to Minmus (which has bonuses) to see the change.

I'll make a bug report tomorrow unless it's confirmed to be intentional that habs get bonuses.

After confirmation with RD:

1. it's intentional that hab modules don't get the regular bonuses from MksModule (like geology*botany etc).
2. hab is benefiting from a slightly different dedicated system: the kolonization bonus ("rep boost") is used, only once (not squared), and adds to the multiplier of the whole vessel. Ex (I think): if your kolonization is 120%, and you hab multiplier would be x3, you get x3.2 multiplier instead

For #1 we'll probably do something so that the MksModule aspect does not show up in VAB, when it does not apply like here

For #2 I could give a shot at including Hab in MksExplainer, but the calculations are extremely complicated, this might take some time

[chaoseclipse01]

Uh...I recently got the entire suite of USI MKS mods because it seemed kinda interesting on top of being a dependency mod for Coyote Space Industries to function, as well as some various other mods. Then I also recently started a new game since I finally got my hands on a developer version of FAR that's compatible with 1.2.2...and I've hit quite the road bumb. All of my solar panels seem to be broken...in the VAB / SPH it says they produce EC, but once I launch a craft and right-click the panels, it says they're trying to produce kW instead of EC, and with an exposure of 100% they aren't producing anything. I was wondering if this mod changes the way all solar panels function, both stock and non-stock solar panels. I wasn't having these issues in my other game save since I didn't have the need to use solar panels anymore. I tried looking through the wiki and didn't see anything about how electricity is handled, and I'm not at my computer to further troubleshoot my issue.

Edited May 11, 2017 by chaoseclipse01

[Terwin]

4 minutes ago, chaoseclipse01 said:

Uh...I recently got the entire suite of USI MKS mods because it seemed kinda interesting on top of being a dependency mod for Coyote Space Industries to function, as well as some various other mods. Then I also recently started a new game since I finally got my hands on a developer version of FAR that's compatible with 1.2.2...and I've hit quite the road bumb. All of my solar panels seem to be broken...in the VAB / SPH it says they produce EC, but once I launch a craft and right-click the panels, it says they're trying to produce kW instead of EC, and with an exposure of 100% they aren't producing anything. I was wondering if this mod changes the way all solar panels function, both stock and non-stock solar panels. I wasn't having these issues in my other game save since I didn't have the need to use solar panels anymore. I tried looking through the wiki and didn't see anything about how electricity is handled, and I'm not at my computer to further troubleshoot my issue.

All of my MKS parts produce and consume EC, perhaps it is a different mod?

[chaoseclipse01]

13 minutes ago, Terwin said:

All of my MKS parts produce and consume EC, perhaps it is a different mod?

I had a feeling it was probably a different mod, but I'm bored right now and don't have my laptop in front me to find out what's actually causing my issue. I know it's not KSPI, NFT, or FAR. Only other mod I can think of now that has anything EC related would be Kerbalism, but I had Kerbalism before and didn't have this issue unless ShotgunNinja made a recent change to how solar panels function. I do appreciate the quick reply.

[goldenpsp]

2 minutes ago, chaoseclipse01 said:

I had a feeling it was probably a different mod, but I'm bored right now and don't have my laptop in front me to find out what's actually causing my issue. I know it's not KSPI, NFT, or FAR. Only other mod I can think of now that has anything EC related would be Kerbalism, but I had Kerbalism before and didn't have this issue unless ShotgunNinja made a recent change to how solar panels function. I do appreciate the quick reply.

Keep in mind you are likely to run into compatibility issues between Kerbalism and  MKS due to the different ways they handle background processing as well.

[chaoseclipse01]

3 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Keep in mind you are likely to run into compatibility issues between Kerbalism and  MKS due to the different ways they handle background processing as well.

I made sure to gut out anything life support related with USI, especially since the Coyote Space Industries doesn't require USI-LS to operate. It's going to take a while of sifting around, I have something like 50+ mods and 29,000 patches applied once I have the game up and running.

Edited May 11, 2017 by chaoseclipse01

[TheRagingIrishman]

42 minutes ago, chaoseclipse01 said:

I made sure to gut out anything life support related with USI, especially since the Coyote Space Industries doesn't require USI-LS to operate. It's going to take a while of sifting around, I have something like 50+ mods and 29,000 patches applied once I have the game up and running.

If you post a mod list, we can help you narrow down the issue pretty quickly. Also, if you delete ModuleManager.ConfigCache and then restart KSP and post KSP.log, that will tell us exactly what mod is patching the solar panels to be strange.

[chaoseclipse01]

3 minutes ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

If you post a mod list, we can help you narrow down the issue pretty quickly. Also, if you delete ModuleManager.ConfigCache and then restart KSP and post KSP.log, that will tell us exactly what mod is patching the solar panels to be strange.

I finally got annoyed enough to remote into my Laptop. I noticed I had both MM 2.7.5 and 2.7.6 so that probably didn't help matters much, I've also removed Coyote Space Industries, USI Tools, MKS, Pathfinder, and Feline Utility Rover, the only two new mods that I know I do have are Modular Flight Integrator and the 1.2.2 Dev Build for FAR, currently loading up the game right now to test to see if that fixes my solar panel issue, if it doesn't I'll do as you have requested.

[Terwin]

38 minutes ago, chaoseclipse01 said:

I made sure to gut out anything life support related with USI, especially since the Coyote Space Industries doesn't require USI-LS to operate. It's going to take a while of sifting around, I have something like 50+ mods and 29,000 patches applied once I have the game up and running.

It is not just life support that has a problem, it is all forms of production, and even the idea having significant numbers of vessels in parallel do not work with background processing as opposed to the stock catch-up mechanic.

1) Kerbalism replaces the stock catch-up mechanic with a background processing mechanic, but that mechanic does not take into account everything that is needed by MKS(RoverDude wrote both the stock catch-up mechanic and MKS, so anything written by someone else is unlikely to work as well if at all)

2) the background processing mechanic was *not* used for stock because it does not scale.  Say you have 10 small outposts averaging 100 parts each, that is 1000 parts that need to be simulated in the background on top of whatever vessel you are trying to fly at the moment.  Even if they manage to cut down the processing to 50%, that is still like trying to fly around while being followed by 10 50-part ships always in physics range...

(Personally I have in excess of 2000 parts across my 11 outposts plus perhaps 2 dozen other ships laying around for things like kolonist evac, scanning, or refueling in addition to whatever mission I happen to be flying at the time.  Imagine trying to fly around with thousands of parts being simulated in the background and you see how that is not a sustainable approach)

[chaoseclipse01]

40 minutes ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

If you post a mod list, we can help you narrow down the issue pretty quickly. Also, if you delete ModuleManager.ConfigCache and then restart KSP and post KSP.log, that will tell us exactly what mod is patching the solar panels to be strange.

Well, getting rid of everything USI/MKS related didn't fix my problem, I just deleted ModuleManager.ConfigCache, restarting KSP right now, it's probably going to take another 30 minutes for my game to fully load up, at least now I'm not getting the double text where the patch information is when the game loads up thanks to getting rid of the old MM 2.7.5 file.

31 minutes ago, Terwin said:

It is not just life support that has a problem, it is all forms of production, and even the idea having significant numbers of vessels in parallel do not work with background processing as opposed to the stock catch-up mechanic.

1) Kerbalism replaces the stock catch-up mechanic with a background processing mechanic, but that mechanic does not take into account everything that is needed by MKS(RoverDude wrote both the stock catch-up mechanic and MKS, so anything written by someone else is unlikely to work as well if at all)

2) the background processing mechanic was *not* used for stock because it does not scale.  Say you have 10 small outposts averaging 100 parts each, that is 1000 parts that need to be simulated in the background on top of whatever vessel you are trying to fly at the moment.  Even if they manage to cut down the processing to 50%, that is still like trying to fly around while being followed by 10 50-part ships always in physics range...

(Personally I have in excess of 2000 parts across my 11 outposts plus perhaps 2 dozen other ships laying around for things like kolonist evac, scanning, or refueling in addition to whatever mission I happen to be flying at the time.  Imagine trying to fly around with thousands of parts being simulated in the background and you see how that is not a sustainable approach)

Well, damn...it kinda looks like I'll have to get rid of Kerbalism at this rate. It kinda kills me because I absolutely love how it simulates radiation belts, magnetopauses, and coronal mass ejections, as well as the physical rendering of the belts and magnetospheres in map view.

[goldenpsp]

13 minutes ago, chaoseclipse01 said:

Well, damn...it kinda looks like I'll have to get rid of Kerbalism at this rate. It kinda kills me because I absolutely love how it simulates radiation belts, magnetopauses, and coronal mass ejections, as well as the physical rendering of the belts and magnetospheres in map view.

It is a mod with lots of cool features.  It is unfortunate that he decided to not factor in interoperability with it.  Not that I think he was wrong but its a shame.

That being said, IIRC @RoverDude has mentioned maybe radiation type features as a future item.

[chaoseclipse01]

1 hour ago, goldenpsp said:

It is a mod with lots of cool features.  It is unfortunate that he decided to not factor in interoperability with it.  Not that I think he was wrong but its a shame.

That being said, IIRC @RoverDude has mentioned maybe radiation type features as a future item.

If he does, tell him to get with ShotgunNinja on it, his map models for Radiation Belts and Magnetospheres are amazing.

@TheRagingIrishman Alright, I have my log file, took a while as I made it back home behind my laptop, Here's the link for it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxPXtptMuIe2TlRza3MxRGdIcDQ/view?usp=sharing

Just a forewarning, my log file is just shy of 9.6MB in size. I'll try going through it myself, but admittedly I don't have much of an idea what I'm looking for.

[chaoseclipse01]

@TheRagingIrishman I'm also going through and verifying my stock game files with Steam right now, make sure none of the mods I installed have somehow modified all the stock files, though I doubt there's any of them that have done that. I'm also going to get rid of CMES (Chaka Monkey Exploration Systems) just to be on the safe side, looking back that's a mod I got fairly recently as well.

[TheRagingIrishman]

@chaoseclipse01 it's definitely a Kerbalism problem. Go bring it your issue up in their thread.

[voicey99]

7 hours ago, TauPhraim said:

After confirmation with RD:

1. it's intentional that hab modules don't get the regular bonuses from MksModule (like geology*botany etc).
2. hab is benefiting from a slightly different dedicated system: the kolonization bonus ("rep boost") is used, only once (not squared), and adds to the multiplier of the whole vessel. Ex (I think): if your kolonization is 120%, and you hab multiplier would be x3, you get x3.2 multiplier instead

For #1 we'll probably do something so that the MksModule aspect does not show up in VAB, when it does not apply like here

For #2 I could give a shot at including Hab in MksExplainer, but the calculations are extremely complicated, this might take some time

Yeah, RN MKS Explainer calculates geology*kolonisation, which is wrong-best just to remove it until it works. The simple hab mult+kol rating checks out perfectly as well 

[damerell]

4 hours ago, Terwin said:

2) the background processing mechanic was *not* used for stock because it does not scale.  Say you have 10 small outposts averaging 100 parts each, that is 1000 parts that need to be simulated in the background on top of whatever vessel you are trying to fly at the moment.  Even if they manage to cut down the processing to 50%, that is still like trying to fly around while being followed by 10 50-part ships always in physics range...

Well, no, it isn't. It's the physics that's CPU-intensive, not running converters. I see why KSP did the catch-up processing (after all, in stock you generally don't care unless you have the vessel focussed) but the idea that it's unfeasible to do it any other way doesn't really hold up.

[chaoseclipse01]

23 minutes ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

@chaoseclipse01 it's definitely a Kerbalism problem. Go bring it your issue up in their thread.

Actually, I found I had three stock game files that failed Steam Verification. Whichever files, I don't know since Steam didn't state which ones they were, but after Steam reinstalled those files I no-longer have my Solar Panel issues (With Kerbalism installed). I have a feeling I probably corrupted those three stock files because I never shut the game down properly, I always Windows Key + D out to my desktop and use Task Manager to kill the game, otherwise trying to exit the game the normal way takes almost as long as booting up my game, and it can take up to 30 - 40 minutes. I'm going to reinstall everything, however it looks like I'm going to have to leave Kerbalism behind, it's a shame since I want the challenges it presents, but it's not compatible with end-game base building, I'll have to relearn how to plan and build using USI-LS.

Edited May 11, 2017 by chaoseclipse01

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, damerell said:

Well, no, it isn't. It's the physics that's CPU-intensive, not running converters. I see why KSP did the catch-up processing (after all, in stock you generally don't care unless you have the vessel focussed) but the idea that it's unfeasible to do it any other way doesn't really hold up.

Actually, no.

Running anything in a tight loop (i.e. 50 times per second) stacks.  It is simply NOT performant.  This is kinda why we went through doing a ton of hard-core optimizations in 1.2, and why there's a ton of caching, etc. done - to squeeze everything we can in that 1/50th of a second before we hit noticable hitches in perf.  And that includes converters.  A few you will not notice.  A bunch of them - when you couple in testing things like planetary resource densities (since depletion is supported), bonus calculations (which can be affected by resource presence hence you're hitting the resource graph), thermal (which updates every tick for obvious reasons), etc, etc, etc, makes processing lots of vessels in real-time a REALLY bad idea.

 

(Source:  I might know a thing or two about how stock converters work, the optimizations in place, and the compromises we made from a design standpoint to support massive vessel/part counts without slowing to a crawl because you tossed 80 drills on a single vessel...)

Edited May 11, 2017 by RoverDude

[Lancezh]

(First off i'm extremely impressed by this mod and what it achieved so please treat the following criticism as a token of appreciation)

To anyone it might concern, here's my frustrating Experience with USI - MKS so far (I got 190 Hours in KSP otherwise) when it comes to the Wiki or how to get started:

1. Tutorial / Wiki:

- Location of the Tutorial Links, please think of new people getting into this, have a Tutorial link for very basic explanation (HOW to do things, not WHAT) on the very top of the page (including the FAQ of the wiki) not like this, it's neither sorted alphabetical i tried to read it in chronological order but gave up after 10 minutes as i didnt understand half of the terminology or what the parts actually do despite their explanation (which is dated to Version 0.50.0) as a noob i can't distinguish relevant and updated info:

- https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/Outdated-Tutorials-Archive , Anchor Links kick you back to the Wiki's Homepage, Info is outdated, can't find equally named parts in KSP, i suggest to completely remove it, it didn't help me as a new player at all, was very frustrating to sift what's relevant and what not, or needs rework. I would do it if i understud it, but unfortunately i dont.
- Crabman's Tutorial - Outdated
- Konstruction Vehicle Examples - Fantastic, short, on point concise examples. Love it, dont have a specific use for them yet but once i will this page i'll be coming back to.
- Example Stations and Bases - Not sure if they are up to date and would still work, they look great, atm a bit afraid that similar designs dont work or are outdated.

2. FAQ

Getting really started the FAQ tells me to visit the Example Bases https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/Example-Stations-and-Bases but it doesnt tell me how they are being connected for instance, do i need docking ports ? Do they attach automatically ? Do they snap ? Where am i supposed to BUILD the base ? Does it matter ? I feel like when i started to play KSP at the very start where i tried to achieve an Orbit and someone explained me Delta-V in great detail while i just wanted to know how i could fix my orbit.  I just dont know where to start. As a new player it's very hard to sift through relevant information, it's easy to point to the wiki when there is no real way to navigate through the information for someone who doesnt have a clue.

3. Ingame Help

Lacks a one pager of how to get started (drop Module X on the Mun, then connect Y to it through blabla), other parts documentation is very well done. I found a one pager about mining (which could very well be the starting point) which was very good until it stopped =) but it explained some stuff i definitely remember, thumbs up for that one, thats how the whole mod should give a basic introduction to it's concepts, that's how you start, the help page is buried in the mining section though. After that i'm still a bit lost of what i should do (in general i plan to have a colony on the mun or on kerbin but i just dont know how to go about it i dropped a couple Modules but i dont know where to go from there).

4. Youtube Tutorials

Noones fault really but there are no good Tutorials that i felt helped me, there's an outdated one that gives you some information but thats about it. I understand the concept of UKS, there's alot of videos and pages that explain me what the mod does but none of them are really good at telling me HOW (to get started with a hands on), ingame documentation is great once you are started though i presume.

5. Hint on the Starting page of this thread

I did that, but i'm confused in what kind of supplies. What kind of Agroponics ? How do i transfer anything (for instance the fertilizer) ?

 

6. Google

This is what i get when i search for something to how to get started, threads that are 3 years old, outdated youtube videos and something for modding that doesnt make sense to me.

 

I would like to help if there is demand for an easier entry into the mod but unfortunately i'm still lost myself and frankly a bit frustrated on where to get my info, often i simply dont know what to search for (yes i know about the search function).