RoverDude

[1.7.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

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@Kobymaru I have a lot more USI mods than you do, as well as several CPU-intensive eyecandy mods that would likely bake a certain potato with integrated graphics (no offence). What I don't understand is why the lag only kicks in and tanks my fps (80% reduction) within the MKS local logistics range, since none of them have anything to do with MKS.

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54 minutes ago, Amnesy said:

hey, 
in my current 1.2.2 save the Ranger Greenhouse Module set to Cultivate(D) claims it is missing water, even though I have some in storage. (See pic)
Any ideas what might be causing that and how I could fix it?

Well water isn't missing, so that's obviously wrong and a bug.

However, Cultivate(D) stands for Cultivate with Dirt - and I don't see any Dirt in your base. Maybe you should try to switch the converter to Cultivate(S) for Substrate? Alternatively, provide some dirt.

Edit: Whoops. You got all the things, and your converter should work. I'm afraid I have no explanation. Do you have a save for this base, so I can take a look?

Edited by Kobymaru

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1 minute ago, Kobymaru said:

Well water isn't missing, so that's obviously wrong and a bug.

However, Cultivate(D) stands for Cultivate with Dirt - and I don't see any Dirt in your base. Maybe you should try to switch the converter to Cultivate(S) for Substrate? Alternatively, provide some dirt.

Top left of his screenshot :P

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where exactly are the orbital resources for karbonit/mks? i just want to know if the placement of said orbital resources might conflict with this mod

 

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1 hour ago, Kobymaru said:

Well water isn't missing, so that's obviously wrong and a bug.

However, Cultivate(D) stands for Cultivate with Dirt - and I don't see any Dirt in your base. Maybe you should try to switch the converter to Cultivate(S) for Substrate? Alternatively, provide some dirt.

Edit: Whoops. You got all the things, and your converter should work. I'm afraid I have no explanation. Do you have a save for this base, so I can take a look?

Well the save is pretty heavily modded and the base also would need procedural parts and KSP:Interstellar. But I'll try and disconnect those bits (Power station and skycrane) and see if the issue persists and then report back.

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4 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

One final message to everyone arguing that PL mechanic is currently realistic. Then I'll stop cluttering the thread and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings that wasnt my intention.

But think about the following situation:

Bill is living in a mining base and Jeb is a pilot in the main base.

Bill: Hey Jeb we are running very low on supplies and will run out of those in a week. Could you send us some more?

Jeb: Nah. I only have 15000 supplies (so enough for many years of consumption) but my warehouse can fit 16000 so you'll just have to wait.

Bill: what Jeb?! We are actually starving in here!

Jeb: well tough luck. Just deal with it.

Bill: *starves to death*

 

Sounds realistic to you? 

Yeah. I didn't think so...

Your problem is that your mental model is incorrect.  You can tell this by one simple experiment:

Remove Bill from your discussion above.  Does any transfer still take place?

It does in MKS - stuff can get transferred to PL from the only base on the the planet, and will stay there until it gets requested from someplace.

So, therefore Bill is not talking to Jeb.  He's talking to someone else (probably a comptroller on Kerbin) who is keeping track of 'excess' materials that can be moved around.  Jeb is talking to the same person - when his warehouse gets full, he calls in to the comptroller and they tell him how to send the excess to some longer-term storage.  *That's* what Bill is pulling from, not from Jeb's warehouse.  So your job as the base designer is to make sure no one base is hording excess materials that need to be considered in the excess by the comptroller.

2 hours ago, voicey99 said:

Still, back to logistics. The 2km logistics range by the rover modules seems pretty small, since that's just a couple of minutes' drive. Maybe buff it to 5km so it can perform an intermediate function between 150m scavenging and planetary logistics?

2km is the limit of what ships are loaded by KSP - so that's a game engine limitation.

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@DStaal

So, what's a good storage / logistics setup for a starter base w/ production? Has anyone posted any videos or tutorials recently?

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That depends a lot on what you think you mean by a starter base...  To me, a starter base is a Pioneer module, with some Ranger attachments - likely an agroponics, for instance, and then storage for whatever resources you're going to need on that.  Then add more modules, depending on your base design and goals, until it's self-sufficient or producing whatever you need it to produce.

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What I was thinking was an early logistics setup, similar to what yall were discussing. In my mind, a small scale operation where you have a primary base, producing supplies, and a small mining/refining base nearby. 

I setup a small base, which I plan on expanding, however, some of the resources I need are a little ways off. Definitely over the 2km range, but I'm not sure the exact distance. For arguments sake, lets assume a small mining base (for the sole purpose of extracting additional resources), 2km out, and the same setup, but further out, say 10km. 

Reading some of these comments, I'm curious what it's going to take to get a decent logistics setup going. 

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38 minutes ago, Rook said:

What I was thinking was an early logistics setup, similar to what yall were discussing. In my mind, a small scale operation where you have a primary base, producing supplies, and a small mining/refining base nearby. 

I setup a small base, which I plan on expanding, however, some of the resources I need are a little ways off. Definitely over the 2km range, but I'm not sure the exact distance. For arguments sake, lets assume a small mining base (for the sole purpose of extracting additional resources), 2km out, and the same setup, but further out, say 10km. 

Reading some of these comments, I'm curious what it's going to take to get a decent logistics setup going. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but here's how I understand the current version to work -

As long as your "main base" has a logistics module it will be able to pull from any "warehouse" storage on the planet. You'll want to make sure you have inflatable storage modules attached to the logistics module for whatever resources are outside the local logistics range. So, for instance, if your exotics miner is on the other side of the planet you'll want to have exotics storage connected directly to the logistics module and you're set.

*edit* - Also the logistics module has to be piloted I believe.

Edited by GiveMeABreak
correction

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As long as your main base has a logistics module, it will push excess resources TO planetary storage. If the logistics module has a pilot, it can also pull FROM planetary storage.

With or without a logistics module, your base participates in "scavenging" and "local logistics." Scavenging is automatic and takes place within 150m (or 2km with certain parts). With scavenging, if you have an MKS module using a resource and attached warehouse-enabled storage for the resource, it will automatically source that resource within scavenging range and pull from warehouse-enabled storage modules. Local logistics has a range of 500m and is player-driven. Transfers don't happen unless you tell them to.

 

In your example, the exotics miner would need:

a) a source of exotics (like a drill)

b) warehouse-enabled exotics storage (like an ISM, kontainer, etc).*

c) a logistics module (doesn't have to be piloted to push).

The main base would need warehouse-enabled exotics storage, and a piloted log module.

 

*For MKS resources like exotics, the only non-warehouse storage will generally be MKS parts with the warehouse disabled. For other resources, most obviously ore, you can run into problems if you have storage modules that don't have the warehouse function at all. It's worth checking, or just standardizing on all-MKS parts for storage.

Edited by zabieru
Forgot my footnote

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zabieru's got it.  The one thing I would add for your scenario is that you might want to think about splitting your 'main base' into two parts: A logistics section, and a processing section.  If you get the logistics section within 2km of the closer mining base, that base doesn't need a logistics module, as you'll be able to scavenge from it.  But note that then *both* the logistics section and the processing section will need storage for exotics.  (The logistics to pull from PL, and the processing to run it's processor.)

So, what you'd need:

  • Far Miner
    • Drills
    • Storage for ~12 hours of output from the drills.
    • A logistics module, either Duna or Tundra.
  • Near Miner
    • Drills
    • Storage for ~6-12 hours of output from the drills.
  • Processing section
    • Your processing plant.
    • Storage for ~6 hours of *input* for the processing plant.
  • Logistics section
    • A logistics module.
    • Storage for ~6 hours of input to the processing plant from the Far Miner.

Note I'm saying 12 hours for some of the storage - it's done in 6-hour batches, but PL will typically only half-empty a storage unit.  So for the storage that's being sent to PL, you want 6 hours to be half your storage, or a bit less.  (If you run out of storage, your drills will stop or you'll lose materials.  Best to have an hour or so leeway.)  Inputs you'll run out to empty, so you want at least 6 hours worth (again give yourself a bit of padding), but you don't need to over-do it.  How much you need in the near miner depends on what order you visit things in - if you visit it directly, it will need more storage than if you visit the logistics section.  (Which likely would mean both your miner and your processing plant will be within 2km.)

And of course I haven't touched the output - you'll want to have enough space to put it as well.  If your logistics section is directly connected to your processing section, it'll automatically put excess into PL, of course.  I'm not entirely sure what the best way to handle it is if they aren't connected - mostly because I'm a bit uncertain on if the logistics can pull it across and put it into PL automatically, or if you'd want to have a huge warehouse on the processing plant so it can accumulate, and then transfer it using local logistics manually.

However, the MKS resource chain is several steps, and I am sure that if the *final* step ends on the same building as the logistics module than it can put the result into PL, so you could start with a refinery with a large storage and add further steps later.

(And you can add on to the miners later on, adding in habitation for Miners to improve efficiency, and possibly a quartermaster to pull supplies back out of storage.)

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[oops, didnt see the page had turned over, my bad]

Edited by voicey99

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Ok guys there are a few things here that i thing need clearing up just so as to not mislead others

4 hours ago, GiveMeABreak said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but here's how I understand the current version to work -

As long as your "main base" has a logistics module it will be able to pull from any "warehouse" storage on the planet. You'll want to make sure you have inflatable storage modules attached to the logistics module for whatever resources are outside the local logistics range. So, for instance, if your exotics miner is on the other side of the planet you'll want to have exotics storage connected directly to the logistics module and you're set.

*edit* - Also the logistics module has to be piloted I believe.

This is not correct,a logistics module can only follow the basic logistics rules for Scavenging and Planteray Logistics and therefore does not have access to pull from any 'warehouse' on the planet.

It can only push and pull from the virtual planetary warehouse.

All transfers directly between two vessels are strictly using the scavenging mechanics so have a 150m or 2km range.

In your example you would need a logistics module on both bases. Then one will push to Planetary Logistics and the other will pull from Planetary Logistics. The transfer is never direct.

The logistics modules only need to be piloted to pull, they can push without a pilot/quartermaster.

1 hour ago, DStaal said:

And of course I haven't touched the output - you'll want to have enough space to put it as well.  If your logistics section is directly connected to your processing section, it'll automatically put excess into PL, of course.  I'm not entirely sure what the best way to handle it is if they aren't connected - mostly because I'm a bit uncertain on if the logistics can pull it across and put it into PL automatically, or if you'd want to have a huge warehouse on the processing plant so it can accumulate, and then transfer it using local logistics manually.

However, the MKS resource chain is several steps, and I am sure that if the *final* step ends on the same building as the logistics module than it can put the result into PL, so you could start with a refinery with a large storage and add further steps later.

 No it can't currently pull from warehouses not directly attached to it so yes you do currently have to store it up and then transfer using local logistics every now and again. This wasn't a problem when Warehouse Distribution was a thing. I'd really like that back to be honest, or the ability for warehouses to dump to PL as long as a piloted logistics module is in range.

@RoverDude would you consider a change to bring back Warehouse Distribution?

@voicey99 I find the only slow down i get with MKS is when i have lots and lots of converters running, still 27fps on the below base but still a lot lower than normal. Is there a chance the big base that ran smoothly had everything turned off and the one that tanks your fps had everything turned on?

FW1MAII.jpg

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11 hours ago, Parmenio said:

Jeb: Sure, Bill. This is easy. All we have to do is get that @tseitsei89 to use local logistics to transfer a couple thousand my 15000 supplies to planetary logistics and you will automagically get supplies at your mining base. 

Bill: Thanks, Jeb! I'll be sure to send back my, um, "mulch" once I have some extra. 

How though? If my base only has one kontainer for supplies and it has a capacity of 16000 units. With that setup there is no way to do this that I know of...

12 hours ago, benad said:

So Bill get's in his rover, drives for 2 weeks, is still only halfway there and Jeb's already dead . . . . 

 

Eve is the biggest celestial body you can land on. It has the radius of 700 000m so that means circumference is 700 000*pi*2 so the longest possible distance between bases in the game is half the circumference of Eve so 700 000m * pi = 2199114m.

It is very easy to build a rover that is capable of 20+ m/s speeds. So that means our traveling time would be 2199114m / 20m/s = 109955s = 30.54 hours = 5.09 kerbin days  < 1 week. :P

So week is plenty of time even in the worst case scenario :wink:

 

But yeah this is really not a big problem since I can use either the "disable warehouse + smaller container for supplies to actively push" approach or I can just make the mining rig completely unmanned. I am just trying to say that there might be ways to make this feature work even better and make this awesome mod even better because nothing is ever perfect.

I will still definitely keep playing with this mod since IMO this is one of the best mod(pack)s in KSP so big thanks to @RoverDude for that :)

 

Edited by tseitsei89

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3 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

How though? If my base only has one kontainer for supplies and it has a capacity of 16000 units. With that setup there is no way to do this that I know of...

He explained that fully to you already, using the resource tower trick. I really do get the feeling you are failing to properly read what people are telling you. 

3 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Eve is the biggest celestial body you can land on. It has the radius of 700 000m so that means circumference is 700 000*pi*2 so the longest possible distance between bases in the game is half the circumference of Eve so 700 000m * pi = 2199114m.

It is very easy to build a rover that is capable of 20+ m/s speeds. So that means our traveling time would be 2199114m / 20m/s = 109955s = 30.54 hours = 5.09 kerbin days  < 1 week. :P

So week is plenty of time even in the worst case scenario :wink:

You've had a good few really solid explanations from me and others, ignoring them and responding to the weakest argument isn't impressing anyone. Even then you've not taken into account terrain, oceans ect. It's still a daft analogy because Transfers are NEVER sent between bases.

3 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

But yeah this is really not a big problem since I can use either the "disable warehouse + smaller container for supplies to actively push" approach or I can just make the mining rig completely unmanned. I am just trying to say that there might be ways to make this feature work even better and make this awesome mod even better because nothing is ever perfect.

There is nothing wrong with making suggestions but no need to bang on and on when the consensus is clearly that it's not a good idea, and people have taken time to explain exactly why it's not.

3 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Alright folks, here's the Bug report for Stock:

http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/13569

If you have more information, please it on. Also would be nice if someone could test the quicksave from the bugtracker in pure stock and then set the bug to confirmed :)

Great work! i'll try and get this changed to confirmed this evening for you.

Cheers

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4 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

How though? If my base only has one kontainer for supplies and it has a capacity of 16000 units. With that setup there is no way to do this that I know of...

My last comment on all of this, @tseitsei89, is that you simply have a poor design to properly utilize the features of the mod. That doesn't make the mod stupid. And that certainly doesn't make you stupid, just makes you a Kerbaler like the rest of us.

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10 hours ago, Rook said:

Reading some of these comments, I'm curious what it's going to take to get a decent logistics setup going. 

What I put at every base is a resource tower, which is a Duna Logistics, Pioneer, and Colonization module stack with ISMs connected, set to the 11 possible configurations. With a quartermaster, this gives me storage and control over almost every resource in the game, both push and pull. I then simply abuse the crap out of planetary logistics. Everything extra gets pushed to the tower. In Minecraft terms, this is like having an ender chest at every base. 

If you know ahead of time what you are going to consume/produce at a base, you can tailor the resource tower to only hold those resources, or just turn off/collapse those ISMs that aren't needed. 

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Having trouble with the OKS Orbital Shipyard. I've fully stocked it with kerbals, and I can open the EP Launchpads GUI and select a craft, but when I press "build", the Kerbal Alarm Clock alert pops up immediately, and the shipyard's build percentage is stuck at 0%. I have enough MaterialKits and Specialized Parts. I have EP Launchpads installed. I have tried reinstalling EP Launcpads and MKS, to no avail. The annoying thing is, I got it to work once in the past and I have no idea how. The only thing that seems to work is uninstalling all my mods and carefully reinstalling them one by one.

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Don't know if the place to ask this question to you @RoverDude, but I was wondering how does the inflatable tanks work? I am trying to create something similar with my Resources in a Can mod and cannot fathom how the resources storage would work. Is it a module that is allow the tank to expand its storage or is it something that can be done with just stock? If this isn't a good spot to ask this no worries just say so and I will remove this post.

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8 hours ago, dboi88 said:

 No it can't currently pull from warehouses not directly attached to it so yes you do currently have to store it up and then transfer using local logistics every now and again. This wasn't a problem when Warehouse Distribution was a thing. I'd really like that back to be honest, or the ability for warehouses to dump to PL as long as a piloted logistics module is in range.

@RoverDude would you consider a change to bring back Warehouse Distribution?

I thought that might be the case, but I haven't tested it since warehouse distribution was a thing.  :wink:

Actually, what @RoverDude should look at there is how WildBlueIndustries handles distribution: Each part can be set to push, pull, both, or neither from local logistics.  It makes a lot of this *much* simpler to set up.

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2 minutes ago, DStaal said:

I thought that might be the case, but I haven't tested it since warehouse distribution was a thing.  :wink:

Actually, what @RoverDude should look at there is how WildBlueIndustries handles distribution: Each part can be set to push, pull, both, or neither from local logistics.  It makes a lot of this *much* simpler to set up.

Yeah I just wanted to check into what the process would be before I commit to a inflatable tank, even with the inflatable tank it will only be a small small small amount of fuel, like enough to fill maybe 5-10 oscar B tanks. If it is not possible to do without dependencies I will most likely just make a normal tank.

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8 hours ago, dboi88 said:

 

@RoverDude would you consider a change to bring back Warehouse Distribution?

One of the few problems I have now is that non-MKS modules will not pull resources...have a fuel refinery structure with ISRU's that won't pull ore (although I might be able to trick it into doing so using a Tundra Ag Support module attached...or just attached a PL module).

Also, @RoverDude, don't seem able to transfer machinery via local logistics...not sure if this is a bug, a deliberate choice by you, or something wrong in my setup. 

 

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