RoverDude

[1.7.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

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USI Life Support 0.5.16.0 is giving me infinite red messeges on the Log, about null exceptions, which grow my log file size in huge numbers rapidly, a soon as I add in the VAB a colonization Module. I downgraded to 0.5.15.0 and everything is fine. Is it only me? I just did this with ONLY USI + mks installed (plus CCK CRP, ModuleManager, firespitter and UsiTools)

MKS pre release posted by RoverDude on page 7.

USITools_0.8.9.0

CRP v0.6.5.0

CCK 1.2.1.0

Firespitter 7.5.1

ModuleManager 2.7.5

Usi Life support 0.5.16.0 ==> constante red nullReference messages // Usi Life Support 0.5.15.0 everything fine.

Edited by Agustin

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1 hour ago, goldenpsp said:

A few points.

What is your productivity?

As @LatiMacciato stated above, you need to have your building materials physically attached.  EL doesn't make use of MKS wireless logistics.

maybe a screenshot of the craft, the build window, and your productivity stats might help.  

I have a full workshop connected via KAS pipes

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13 minutes ago, Fireheart318 said:

I have a full workshop connected via KAS pipes

Well then I wish you the best of luck figuring it out.

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16 hours ago, RoverDude said:

And testing now....  Expect a patch in the next day or two

…Twelve minutes later…

16 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Ok... fix is up for testing

"Day or two", right.  :wink:

Anyway, I've tested the patch and it fixes the jittery mini-hab on my mining rover — including if I drive the rover around with the hab deployed, or jump it off the ground with its VTOL engines (both of which I was worried about when you mentioned "ground tethers").  And I don't have any problems with EVA, either with the hatch selector or the button on the kerbal portrait.  It seems like there may be a slight framerate hit, but it's hard to be sure, and it's still playable anyway.

Edit: Hmm… the hab doesn't jitter around, but it does lift the rover's rear legs off the ground slightly, at which point the back of the rover starts to slide slowly downhill.  Seems like the bottom of the mini-hab has less friction than the Karibou multi-hub's legs.  (This isn't immediately noticeable with the rover's position in the save I sent you; it happened after I drove around a bit for testing and ended up on a slightly-steeper part of the hill.)

Edit 2: Actually, it does still jitter around, but much less than before, just enough to be visible if you look closely.  And it moves the rover very slightly — KER's surface window shows a horizontal speed that fluctuates around 5 millimeters per second.  (With the hab retracted, the speed is still nonzero but stays below 1mm/s.)  Still, it's much better now, and not problematic anymore.

Edited by Wyzard

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1 hour ago, Fireheart318 said:

I have a full workshop connected via KAS pipes

This full workshop... I have a suspicion it's full of RocketParts? 

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Just downloaded, completely new install with only the MKS modules. Two questions please:

  1. Where is the ORCA command pod? I thought it was part of MKS.
  2. is there a problem with the habitation ring expanding? I can control it in VAB, but not after launch. I made the simplest possible ship (below) and it doesn't give me expand options

cEhqhkP.png

Thanks!

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26 minutes ago, Tyko said:

Just downloaded, completely new install with only the MKS modules. Two questions please:

  1. Where is the ORCA command pod? I thought it was part of MKS.
  2. is there a problem with the habitation ring expanding? I can control it in VAB, but not after launch. I made the simplest possible ship (below) and it doesn't give me expand options

Thanks!

The Orca is part of FTT, not MKS.

To expand any of the inflatable parts, you need to be on EVA and have the appropriate resources.  If you EVA Jeb and try to expand the ring, it'll have the option but give you an error message saying you don't have the boatload of MaterialKits you need to expand that thing.  :wink:

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3 hours ago, gamerscircle said:

Hi all -

So, I have the basics of the 'warehouse' feature down...  I got an ore drill site up and running. [the main purpose if to just drill the ore and distro. it]

I also have an ore processing site that's only purpose is to pull the ore and convert it.  This is working!  [image link below]  http://imgur.com/1L9gDqZ

After I connected the craft with the inflatable, nothing was working, but after I swapped to another craft and then back, that seemed to do the trick.

Since all of my structures are connected, I haven't taken advantage of 'scavenging' yet.  Based on the image, the habitation that I am using is kind of a band-aid until I can get supplies setup and that is where my question lies.

If I look at this: https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Resources

I need Gypsum and process it into fertilizer
I need Hydrates to process it into water

Then with fertilizer and water, I will be able to produce supplies?

Is that correct or am I looking at it incorrectly?

Again, I know this is most likely self explained, I just need to get the basics and then I think, I will be able to get it.

Bonus question, can I attach a flextube to a medium stock docking port and be able to benefit from shared resources?

 

edit: Oh, thank you for answering my repetitive questions, over and over. 

You can of course mine Water directly, if you have it.  Hydrates is just an alternate route, in case you can't find Water.  (If you've got both available, you'll do much better to mine Water.)

That chart seems a bit unclear on the path(s) to Supplies - there are several.  You can convert Mulch+Fertilizer, or Fertilizer+Water+(Dirt/Substrate) to Supplies - Fertilizer and Water alone aren't enough, but there are several paths if you've got both of those.  Also worth noting is that you can feed Water into a Tundra Kerbitat and reduce your Supplies usage drastically.  (By 90%.)  So what you want to feed it to depends on how many Kerbals you need to support, and what resources you've got handy.

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2 hours ago, Merkov said:

This full workshop... I have a suspicion it's full of RocketParts?

Or he has a bunch of stupid low level kerbals in there producing a negative productivity value.
This really really should be in the EL (and note: it is NOT known as "EPL") thread.

The sooner we have the Ground C(K ?)onstruction solution the better!

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What's the current state of planetary logistics ?

  • I have an unmanned drillers ship landed. From what I read it should push resources to planetary stock, but nothing happens (the resources are Kontainers and I topped them off with hyperedit to test)
  • Assuming I get resources to be stored in the planetary stock, will ships in orbit be able to use them ? (with a Duna Pioneer and pilot on board) ?

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4 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

What's the current state of planetary logistics ?

  • I have an unmanned drillers ship landed. From what I read it should push resources to planetary stock, but nothing happens (the resources are Kontainers and I topped them off with hyperedit to test)
  • Assuming I get resources to be stored in the planetary stock, will ships in orbit be able to use them ? (with a Duna Pioneer and pilot on board) ?

You still need a Pioneer module (Tundra or Duna) in order to be able to push resources into planetary logistics and transfer them over distances of >150m (which can only be accessed by landed vessels, so no surface-to-orbit teleportation), assuming both ends have a logistics-enabled storage capability for them.

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5 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

You still need a Pioneer module (Tundra or Duna) in order to be able to push resources into planetary logistics and transfer them over distances of >150m (which can only be accessed by landed vessels, so no surface-to-orbit teleportation), assuming both ends have a logistics-enabled storage capability for them.

Thanks. Is this findable in-game or does it have to be remembered ? I thougt it was simply:

  • Module resource warehouse to push
  • Module resource distributor to pull (since that's what the Pioneers have, I attributed the discrepency distributor/pull to an error)

But it's more: Module resource distributor to both push and pull (must be manned for pulling) ? And the warehouses are just parts from which pulling is allowed ?

 

Is there something planned for supplying orbital bases ? I find it strange that logistics can cover any distance on the surface (they can, right ?), but not reach orbit.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

Thanks. Is this findable in-game or does it have to be remembered ? I thougt it was simply:

  • Module resource warehouse to push
  • Module resource distributor to pull (since that's what the Pioneers have, I attributed the discrepency distributor/pull to an error)

But it's more: Module resource distributor to both push and pull (must be manned for pulling) ? And the warehouses are just parts from which pulling is allowed ?

 

Is there something planned for supplying orbital bases ? I find it strange that logistics can cover any distance on the surface (they can, right ?), but not reach orbit.

 

 

You need a logistics module not a pioneer. The tundra modules is a pioneer logistics combined.

Have you checked out the KSPedia entry in game? 

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Parts with the warehouse module can simply distribute resources within 150m among other warehouses, and distributors pull resources from full warehouses (<150m) and put them into storage, and can also pull from storage and push to empty warehouses (<150m) when manned (by a Pilot or Quartermaster).

I think the planetary storage concept is designed to emulate kerbals or resident droids just chucking surplus stuff in a big heap outside their base and kerbals from other bases coming over in a rover from elsewhere on the planet to pick it up to stuff into their own local storage. This concept wouldn't make sense for stations unless it's Gilly (where they are basically landed anyway), so orbital stations must be manually resupplied-this is intentional. Maybe in the future some kind of orbital shuttle logistics network could be created (would be really cool and useful) but as of now there are no plans for that (and don't bug RD for it).

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Just now, voicey99 said:

 Maybe in the future some kind of orbital shuttle logistics network could be created (would be really cool and useful) but as of now there are no plans for that (and don't bug RD for it).

We used to have Orbital Logistics. It's planned for something to replace this again at some point.

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4 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

Have you checked out the KSPedia entry in game? 

I checked the KSPedia, the wiki (they seem similar), and also what I could google from old forum posts. It's rather vague I'd say. I would love to update things myself if I could, but that can't happen without first understanding :)

4 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

You need a logistics module not a pioneer. The tundra modules is a pioneer logistics combined.

Do you mean the Duna Pioneer and Tundra Pioneer are not the same ? They seem to have the same modules visible in-VAB. Or is there some other part dedicated to that ?

I added a Duna Pioneer to my unmanned drillers and they're still not pushing to planetary stock, though, so I'm at a loss.

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2 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

I checked the KSPedia, the wiki (they seem similar), and also what I could google from old forum posts. It's rather vague I'd say. I would love to update things myself if I could, but that can't happen without first understanding :)

Do you mean the Duna Pioneer and Tundra Pioneer are not the same ? They seem to have the same modules visible in-VAB. Or is there some other part dedicated to that ?

I added a Duna Pioneer to my unmanned drillers and they're still not pushing to planetary stock, though, so I'm at a loss.

No you need the duna logistics module or the  Tundra Pioneer - Logistics Module.

What's 'vague' about this?

"Designed to be one of the first parts of a long term colony, the Pioneer module features local logistics capabilities, basic training facilities, recycling facilities for life support, KerbNet access, and survey station capabilities for off-world construction. Includes Logistics functionality that allows the vessel (and the resource warehouses attached directly to it) to participate in planetary logistics, taking or storing resources in planetary stockpiles"

That's the description in game, on the wiki and the KSPedia entry for the MKS Tundra Pioneer - Logistics Module

The Planetary Logistics section of the wiki and kspedia note that "A piloted Logistics Module is required for the craft to take part."

The description for Duna Logistics Center?

"The Logistics Center allows the vessel (and the resource warehouses attached directly to it) to participate in planetary logistics, taking or storing resources in platetary stockpiles."

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6 hours ago, Agustin said:

USI Life Support 0.5.16.0 is giving me infinite red messeges on the Log, about null exceptions, which grow my log file size in huge numbers rapidly, a soon as I add in the VAB a colonization Module. I downgraded to 0.5.15.0 and everything is fine. Is it only me? I just did this with ONLY USI + mks installed (plus CCK CRP, ModuleManager, firespitter and UsiTools)

MKS pre release posted by RoverDude on page 7.

USITools_0.8.9.0

CRP v0.6.5.0

CCK 1.2.1.0

Firespitter 7.5.1

ModuleManager 2.7.5

Usi Life support 0.5.16.0 ==> constante red nullReference messages // Usi Life Support 0.5.15.0 everything fine.

No answer yet. I  should add that I tested this with multiple versions of UsiTools and MKS and the only thing that breaks it is the last version (0.5.16.0) of LifeSupport. Anyone else having this issue?

Not complaining, just trying to narrow possibilities for possible fixes, just trying to help, but tell me if this is not needed or already noted.

Sorry, rePosted On UsiLifeSupport Thread.

Edited by Agustin

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6 hours ago, TauPhraim said:

What's the current state of planetary logistics ?

  • I have an unmanned drillers ship landed. From what I read it should push resources to planetary stock, but nothing happens (the resources are Kontainers and I topped them off with hyperedit to test)
  • Assuming I get resources to be stored in the planetary stock, will ships in orbit be able to use them ? (with a Duna Pioneer and pilot on board) ?

From the release notes in the OP:

Planetary Logistics no longer require a pilot to push resources, only to pull (welcome back unmanned mining bases, we missed you!)
 

As others have mentioned, a Logistics module is needed on the drillers and the ore processor.  Need a Pilot on the ore processor, no longer need one on the drillers.

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7 hours ago, dboi88 said:

No you need the duna logistics module or the  Tundra Pioneer - Logistics Module.

What's 'vague' about this?

"Designed to be one of the first parts of a long term colony, the Pioneer module features local logistics capabilities, basic training facilities, recycling facilities for life support, KerbNet access, and survey station capabilities for off-world construction. Includes Logistics functionality that allows the vessel (and the resource warehouses attached directly to it) to participate in planetary logistics, taking or storing resources in planetary stockpiles"

That's the description in game, on the wiki and the KSPedia entry for the MKS Tundra Pioneer - Logistics Module

The Planetary Logistics section of the wiki and kspedia note that "A piloted Logistics Module is required for the craft to take part."

The description for Duna Logistics Center?

"The Logistics Center allows the vessel (and the resource warehouses attached directly to it) to participate in planetary logistics, taking or storing resources in platetary stockpiles."

To be fair, it can be vague to newer users of USI, especially since if you need to read the description, you are a newer user.

  1. You mention Logistics twice in slightly different contexts
  2. There is no mention that the Tundra is actually a combination of Pioneer and Logistics (other than the title), and this can be confusing when you start to compare functionality with Ranger and Duna. The description actually says: the Pioneer module features local logistics capabilities. It's not the Pioneer module, it's the Pioneer/Logistics module.  You can get used to that and think the Duna Pioneer module has the same functionality, but it really doesn't.
  3. In MKS, the terms "warehousing", "logistics", and "planetary logistics" can be confusing to new users, as they all perform logistics of some sort, but need different requirements for modules and design.
  4. What exactly does "local logistics capabilities" mean? Is it scavenging, warehousing, both? That phrase is not really used anywhere else.

Yes, this is a very strict review, but it should highlight that the descriptions are not always understood by everyone. Also, I've previously mentioned that using the same vague description in three different places does not really help. It is frustrating to not understand the in-game description, go to the Wiki for help, and see the same thing. I understand the ingame descriptions need to be short and tight, but that also means that it will be vague to somebody.

Edited by Gilph
two bullets were essentially the same point

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With all due respect, I also don't consider those vague - they literally spell out how it works.   If you feel something needs more specificity, I look forward to your pull request.

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10 minutes ago, Gilph said:

To be fair, it can be vague to newer users of USI, especially since if you need to read the description, you are a newer user.

  1. You mention Logistics twice in slightly different contexts
  2. There is no mention that the Tundra is actually a combination of Pioneer and Logistics (other than the title), and this can be confusing when you start to compare functionality with Ranger and Duna. The description actually says: the Pioneer module features local logistics capabilities. It's not the Pioneer module, it's the Pioneer/Logistics module.  You can get used to that and think the Duna Pioneer module has the same functionality, but it really doesn't.
  3. In MKS, the terms "warehousing", "logistics", and "planetary logistics" can be confusing to new users, as they all perform logistics of some sort, but need different requirements for modules and design.
  4. What exactly does "local logistics capabilities" mean? Is it scavenging, warehousing, both? That phrase is not really used anywhere else.

Yes, this is a very strict review, but it should highlight that the descriptions are not always understood by everyone. Also, I've previously mentioned that using the same vague description in three different places does not really help. It is frustrating to not understand the in-game description, go to the Wiki for help, and see the same thing. I understand the ingame descriptions need to be short and tight, but that also means that it will be vague to somebody.

I was a new user when 1.2 came out. At that point the Wiki was woefully out of date due to all the changes and most of the answers given in the thread previously were now obsolete due to the changes. Yet with a couple of days of reading through the part descriptions and playing in SandBox i was able to mostly work everything out and then i wrote the KSPedia and helped update the Wiki. I simple can't agree that is is vague.

If you understood the amount of work me and many many others have put into doing with Wiki (including going through variation upon variation of descriptions and guides trying to make sure everything is clear as it can be) and KSPedia(over 200 hours spent) you'd understand why it rubs me up the wrong way for someone to claim it is 'vague'. 

Especially when that person clearly wasn't fully reading the responses they were getting in the first place. If you can't even read a response from someone trying to help then i'm not sure i'd believe they've read through all the documentation either.

 

In regards to your points.

1. And if you look at the logistics pages in wiki and KSPedia you'd have already been aware that there was more than one type of logistic so this shouldn't be a confusing point.

2.How more clear can you make it that it is a combined that naming it Pioneer/Logistics module and mentioning in the description?

3. Again fully explained in both the wiki and KSPedia entry

4. Considering warehouse has been depreciated and doesn't exist in either the wiki or KSpedia entry it can only mean scavenging and a new user wouldn't consider this at all.

I know you've had trouble understanding things in the past and have made a lot of these points before, but have you ever proposed a solution? I don't understand why you would think there would be different descriptions in different places. If these descriptions were different then they'd just be wrong. If you feel you can elaborate further than others already have and provide a clearer understanding then we'd literally love for you to do so. 

 

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2 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

I was a new user when 1.2 came out. At that point the Wiki was woefully out of date due to all the changes and most of the answers given in the thread previously were now obsolete due to the changes. Yet with a couple of days of reading through the part descriptions and playing in SandBox i was able to mostly work everything out and then i wrote the KSPedia and helped update the Wiki. I simple can't agree that is is vague.

If you understood the amount of work me and many many others have put into doing with Wiki (including going through variation upon variation of descriptions and guides trying to make sure everything is clear as it can be) and KSPedia(over 200 hours spent) you'd understand why it rubs me up the wrong way for someone to claim it is 'vague'. 

Especially when that person clearly wasn't fully reading the responses they were getting in the first place. If you can't even read a response from someone trying to help then i'm not sure i'd believe they've read through all the documentation either.

 

In regards to your points.

1. And if you look at the logistics pages in wiki and KSPedia you'd have already been aware that there was more than one type of logistic so this shouldn't be a confusing point.

2.How more clear can you make it that it is a combined that naming it Pioneer/Logistics module and mentioning in the description?

3. Again fully explained in both the wiki and KSPedia entry

4. Considering warehouse has been depreciated and doesn't exist in either the wiki or KSpedia entry it can only mean scavenging and a new user wouldn't consider this at all.

I know you've had trouble understanding things in the past and have made a lot of these points before, but have you ever proposed a solution? I don't understand why you would think there would be different descriptions in different places. If these descriptions were different then they'd just be wrong. If you feel you can elaborate further than others already have and provide a clearer understanding then we'd literally love for you to do so. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

With all due respect, I also don't consider those vague - they literally spell out how it works.   If you feel something needs more specificity, I look forward to your pull request.

I will move this to the Doc thread. The work on the Wiki was nothing short of amazing, but you can be proud of your efforts and still recognize that it cannot be perfect and people can still be confused about this very complicated system.  When some asks for clarification because they feel it's vague, cutting and pasting the same vague statement isn't helpful. Nobody is attacking your work, they just want some help. I'll ignore your responses to my points for now.

Yes, I proposed solutions in the doc thread. I will do more on the Wiki directly.

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19 minutes ago, Gilph said:

 

I will move this to the Doc thread. The work on the Wiki was nothing short of amazing, but you can be proud of your efforts and still recognize that it cannot be perfect and people can still be confused about this very complicated system.  When some asks for clarification because they feel it's vague, cutting and pasting the same vague statement isn't helpful. Nobody is attacking your work, they just want some help. I'll ignore your responses to my points for now.

Yes, I proposed solutions in the doc thread. I will do more on the Wiki directly.

"It needs to be clearer and different" is not a solution. A solution would be to propose a new description. That's never been done.

I can fully accept that people can still be confused and they can ask questions but that does not = vague. Who's cutting and pasting part descriptions when people ask for help? I provided the exact part that he needed and he ignored that and put a different part on then asked why it wasn't working he even qouted me while asking why it wasn't working.

Copy and pasting the part descriptions was in my response to you and your claim that they are vague. They are not

You are correct the people asking for help are not attacking anyones work (well 99% of them anyway) Its you that is attacking the work others have done as being 'vague'. That is what I've taken umbridge too.

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Don't turn this thread into a slanging match by arguing over who is correct about the state of the MKS wiki. RoverDude makes the call on whether the wiki is vague or not-if you think it is then please actually make constructive suggestions on how to improve it instead of spamming the thread by perpetually squabbling with each other over something so petty. This belongs in the doc thread anyway.

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