[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[Gilph]

5 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

Couldn't you make one central warehouse that makes the credits and does the transfers?  Use planetary logistics to get the stuff into it.

Yes, I'm doing some VAB design modifications, and it's not terribly hard. It does change my smaller, more distributed designs a little, but it's not bad.

I was just curious if that would be the intended behavior going forward, so I can plan for it. I'm prototyping designs in 1.3.1 while the Kopernicus/GPP guys are working on 1.4.1 releases.

[DoktorKrogg]

Yeah the idea with OrbLog is that you have a central transport hub to handle getting stuff into orbit. Of course, that doesn't stop you from having a more distributed network but that does mean you have to create TransportCredits at each station. Just comes down to personal preference there I guess. (PS we plan to allow Kerbals to be transported via OrbLog as well once I get around to writing the code for it, so that's another thing to consider if you want to 'future proof' your current saves).

In terms of being able to transport resources between SoIs, we are working on that too but it won't be part of OrbLog. 

[voicey99]

17 hours ago, DStaal said:

Yes, you need EL to use those parts.  'Depreciated' means they're going away soon - and that you should avoid using them.  It's best to use EL parts from other mods.

As part of their depreciation their functionality had already been removed just over a year ago, so they don't work anyway.

[Shark Labs]

just a question will you be updating it to 1.4.1? would love to see this mod addded

 

[halx]

so are there any workarounds for building in-SITU besides having to ship in the actual DIY kits from Kerbin? (besides patching EL - don't really want to mess with that since its going to be depreciated)

does Orbital Construction yard still work or is that being depreciated as well?

Edited March 21, 2018 by halx

[voicey99]

3 minutes ago, halx said:

so are there any workarounds for building in-SITU besides having to ship in the actual DIY kits from Kerbin? (besides patching EL - don't really want to mess with that since its going to be depreciated)

does Orbital Construction yard still work or is that being depreciated as well?

The EL patch that sets it up to use MKS resources won't be depreciated, just the parts. You can still use EL's facilities to make things with MaterialKits etc., so MKS is switching to "support" rather than "integration".

The Orbital Construction yard will also be depreciated and its functionality was removed at the same time as the platform. You can still grab them from an older version where they were still intact and copy them over manually to no ill effect if you want to keep using them.

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, Shark Labs said:

just a question will you be updating it to 1.4.1? would love to see this mod addded

 

It's already 1.4.1

[AccidentalDisassembly]

29 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

It's already 1.4.1

Not according to the thread title!

[RoverDude]

1 minute ago, AccidentalDisassembly said:

Not according to the thread title!

While the thread title needs updating, it does not change the fact that the mod has been 1.4.1 updated

[aniron]

7 hours ago, AccidentalDisassembly said:

Not according to the thread title!

Careful, lest @RoverDude rolls back the mod to match the thread title! :-)

[NermNermNerm]

I recently started learning all about efficiency parts.  I think I found a bug:  It looks to me like efficiency parts don't play in catch-up resource calculation.

That is, if you create a vessel like I did, say, with 12x greenhouses and 2x 3.75m Tundra Ag Modules, you'll see a huge load% in the ag modules and a nice big number in the Resources window.  But, if you go to the Tracking Station and let 50 days go by and come back to the base, the production numbers don't reflect what you see in the Resources window.  In fact, if you quickload back to before you ticked off 50 days, turn off all the greenhouses, and let those 50 days tick by, I'm finding that I end up with exactly the same number of organics as you did when you had them turned on.

Note that I've controlled for such concerns as storage, heat and power.  There's plenty of that stuff and I have two identical bases showing this behavior on different planets with vastly different Geo/Bot ratings.  I suppose it could be not so much the efficiency thing as it is the inflatables.  Don't think so, tho, as I have inflatables as the only source of MatKits in this playthrough.

Honestly, as a game mechanic, I feel like Efficiency Parts aren't great - they add linearly to production such that it's always better to have 1 producer and n efficiency bits or all producers and no efficiency bits (where the choice between the two depends on constants like part-count, mass and the efficiency multiplier & consumption).  Maybe the best fix for the bug would be to write up in the wiki something that says it's a bad idea to use them.

I'm still on ksp 1.3 with mks 0.53.2.0

 

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, NermNermNerm said:

Honestly, as a game mechanic, I feel like Efficiency Parts aren't great - they add linearly to production such that it's always better to have 1 producer and n efficiency bits or all producers and no efficiency bits (where the choice between the two depends on constants like part-count, mass and the efficiency multiplier & consumption).  Maybe the best fix for the bug would be to write up in the wiki something that says it's a bad idea to use them.

Their purpose is to allow re-use of older components as your base expands to more complex reaction chains.  Now, if they are not being taken into account during catchup - that's a bug.  But I'd need to know if it is one being reported on the 1.4.1 version of MKS

[AtilaElari]

I'd be grateful for a little clarification of Planetary Logistics mechanics. Am I correct in understanding that planets have infinite warehouses, so for example you could send a mining rig with minimal storage to, say, Duna, start it up with global warehouse enabled, then when your colony ship arrives at the next transfer window a year later a crewed logistics module would be able to pull a year's worth of mined ores from global warehouse?

[TDplay]

7 minutes ago, AtilaElari said:

I'd be grateful for a little clarification of Planetary Logistics mechanics. Am I correct in understanding that planets have infinite warehouses, so for example you could send a mining rig with minimal storage to, say, Duna, start it up with global warehouse enabled, then when your colony ship arrives at the next transfer window a year later a crewed logistics module would be able to pull a year's worth of mined ores from global warehouse?

As far as I can tell. However, your mining rig MUST have a planetary-logistics enabled module, but not a pilot.

I myself have an issue - I find the Kontainers a bit annoying, due to the fact that you have to go through all FS options. Could we have a system where you can open a menu and select the resource you want, similar to how Angel-125 has their containers set up?

Edited March 22, 2018 by TDplay

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, AtilaElari said:

I'd be grateful for a little clarification of Planetary Logistics mechanics. Am I correct in understanding that planets have infinite warehouses, so for example you could send a mining rig with minimal storage to, say, Duna, start it up with global warehouse enabled, then when your colony ship arrives at the next transfer window a year later a crewed logistics module would be able to pull a year's worth of mined ores from global warehouse?

Yep - just remember you would have to visit your mining rig so it runs through catchup and deposits the resources.

[Stone Blue]

7 hours ago, TDplay said:

I myself have an issue - I find the Kontainers a bit annoying, due to the fact that you have to go through all FS options. Could we have a system where you can open a menu and select the resource you want, similar to how Angel-125 has their containers set up?

Oh, huh... B9 Part Switch has a popup GUI menu thats selectable like that... instead of having to toggle thru every option... vOv

[ksp_colin]

I noticed when I am using a vessel in orbit or on the ground, the EC constantly depletes while time warping and not being present in the instance of a particular vessel. However when I load to a particular instance of an orbiting vessel or base, and time warp again the EC of that particular vehicle will charge as expected. 

This was not a big concern to me until I started making farming bases with mks. I noticed that when my ranger agricultural module was crewed with a botanist, had the needed resources to convert inputs into Supplies, that the base would only accumulate Supplies when I was loaded with that particular vehicle. Otherwise all of my other vessels with farms would deplete EC/Supplies while time warping. For example, simming or warping from the tracking station and all of my vessels and bases deplete EC and Supplies!

I am just starting with a Mun base and am just learning. But this issues makes interplanetary bases with Agricultural modules seem very useless if they all deplete Supplies unless you are using one particular vessel that can accumulate resources (correctly).

Is this a known issue? Am I doing something obviously wrong?  Thanks for reading and any replies in advance.

[NermNermNerm]

1 hour ago, ksp_colin said:

Is this a known issue? Am I doing something obviously wrong?

If I understand you correctly, then it's by-design.  I'm assuming you're saying you have two bases that are out of physics range of each other (> 2.2km).  If you have one producing supplies and one consuming them, then what you need to do is have both of them include a "Logistics" module, make sure that the producer has a storage module that's "logistics capable", and make sure you set that storage module such that it uses the "Kolony Warehouse".  (A tweakable selection on the storage tank).  Your consumer base needs a logistics module and a storage tank for the resource and it needs to be set as using the Kolony Warehouse as well and you need to have a Pilot or Quartermaster at the base.

Once you do all those things, if you go to the tracking station and reel off a few days (it has to be days, by the way, not hours or minutes), then return to the producer, you'll see that stuff has been deposited to Planetary Storage - you'll see that in the "Platentary Logistics" tab.  If you then move to another base, outside of physics range, you'll see those supplies suddenly deplete, as the consumer base drains the planetary warehouse.

As you can see, there's a lot to go wrong here.  As you're learning this thing, a sandbox save to experiment is really helpful.  There are other gotchas too - like the catchup-calculations work on 1-day granularity, so you need to have storage containers for each resource in your supply chain bigger than what you'd output in one day.

[AtilaElari]

I'm confused. What you see on the screenshot are literary the only things I landed on Minmus,  bar the rovers, yet I have 100% kolonization?

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by AtilaElari

[Poodmund]

7 hours ago, Stone Blue said:

Oh, huh... B9 Part Switch has a popup GUI menu thats selectable like that... instead of having to toggle thru every option... vOv

Its UI popup is much more user friendly when dealing with parts that have a lot of configuration variations that is for sure.

IIRC Nertea's parts also made the switch and function much better for it.

[Pleb]

2 hours ago, Poodmund said:

Its UI popup is much more user friendly when dealing with parts that have a lot of configuration variations that is for sure.

IIRC Nertea's parts also made the switch and function much better for it.

Agreed! I tend to manually patch this in on mods that don't use this as I find this to be the best way to switch resources on parts.

[Blazing Sun]

Still not sure if it's just me or not, but the 500-series pulse drills still aren't showing up in my game at all, though the config files are still where they should be. This started after the last update, and seems to have continued into the latest one that I just downloaded. Anyone know why this is happening?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/squh4ltssux88vr/Screenshot (3).png?dl=0

 

 

[RoverDude]

5 hours ago, AtilaElari said:

I'm confused. What you see on the screenshot are literary the only things I landed on Minmus,  bar the rovers, yet I have 100% kolonization?

 

You start out at 100% - then it goes up to 500% over time

9 minutes ago, Blazing Sun said:

Still not sure if it's just me or not, but the 500-series pulse drills still aren't showing up in my game at all, though the config files are still where they should be. This started after the last update, and seems to have continued into the latest one that I just downloaded. Anyone know why this is happening?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/squh4ltssux88vr/Screenshot (3).png?dl=0

 

 

Will take a peek and see what's up

Unrelated, regarding resource / mesh / texture switching, I'll be swapping to the stock implementation (although I will have to update Firespitter to properly wire up resource switching to stock texture switching).

[ksp_colin]

10 hours ago, NermNermNerm said:

If I understand you correctly, then it's by-design.  I'm assuming you're saying you have two bases that are out of physics range of each other (> 2.2km).  If you have one producing supplies and one consuming them, then what you need to do is have both of them include a "Logistics" module, make sure that the producer has a storage module that's "logistics capable", and make sure you set that storage module such that it uses the "Kolony Warehouse".  (A tweakable selection on the storage tank).  Your consumer base needs a logistics module and a storage tank for the resource and it needs to be set as using the Kolony Warehouse as well and you need to have a Pilot or Quartermaster at the base.

Once you do all those things, if you go to the tracking station and reel off a few days (it has to be days, by the way, not hours or minutes), then return to the producer, you'll see that stuff has been deposited to Planetary Storage - you'll see that in the "Platentary Logistics" tab.  If you then move to another base, outside of physics range, you'll see those supplies suddenly deplete, as the consumer base drains the planetary warehouse.

As you can see, there's a lot to go wrong here.  As you're learning this thing, a sandbox save to experiment is really helpful.  There are other gotchas too - like the catchup-calculations work on 1-day granularity, so you need to have storage containers for each resource in your supply chain bigger than what you'd output in one day.

Many thanks for the detailed response @NermNermNerm. Your understanding is mostly correct and your feedback is definitely something for me to consider. As of now I only have a single Mun colony/base so the logistics sharing has not yet been something I have considered. Regardless your cautions and 'gotcha's are already useful.

It sounds like the frustrating detail I am observing is by design. Unfortunately I still have not fully grasped why this is or what I am doing wrong. My modest beginner base has room for a crew of at least ten, a science lab, refueling drills + ISRU, a ranger agricultural module (RAM), all the inputs and fertilizer needed for the farm to produce Supplies, and a crew of three including one botanist in the RAM. When I load the base and am controlling the base directly, the base gains Supplies as expected. The gain is very slow and is only noticable with a time warp to see the Supply value increasing. Likewise when I load to another vessel  (over 2.2km away, i.e my orbiting Mun SS) and time warp as another loaded vessel (or from the tracking station) then that same Mun base with the RAM begins to lose Supplies. Is this a rounding issue? Do I need a better type of farm or less crew? 

My concern is I am in the middle of my first Duna flyby on this MKS campaign and am trying to learn how to build a self sufficient farm on or around Duna. The first Duna flyby is wrapping up and I am preparing for my next transfer window to send a few vessels, but I dont understand the appeal of the RAM yet if it loses Supplies while time warping, and only gains Supplies while I am loaded with that particular RAM.

 

[DStaal]

9 minutes ago, ksp_colin said:

Many thanks for the detailed response @NermNermNerm. Your understanding is mostly correct and your feedback is definitely something for me to consider. As of now I only have a single Mun colony/base so the logistics sharing has not yet been something I have considered. Regardless your cautions and 'gotcha's are already useful.

It sounds like the frustrating detail I am observing is by design. Unfortunately I still have not fully grasped why this is or what I am doing wrong. My modest beginner base has room for a crew of at least ten, a science lab, refueling drills + ISRU, a ranger agricultural module (RAM), all the inputs and fertilizer needed for the farm to produce Supplies, and a crew of three including one botanist in the RAM. When I load the base and am controlling the base directly, the base gains Supplies as expected. The gain is very slow and is only noticable with a time warp to see the Supply value increasing. Likewise when I load to another vessel  (over 2.2km away, i.e my orbiting Mun SS) and time warp as another loaded vessel (or from the tracking station) then that same Mun base with the RAM begins to lose Supplies. Is this a rounding issue? Do I need a better type of farm or less crew? 

My concern is I am in the middle of my first Duna flyby on this MKS campaign and am trying to learn how to build a self sufficient farm on or around Duna. The first Duna flyby is wrapping up and I am preparing for my next transfer window to send a few vessels, but I dont understand the appeal of the RAM yet if it loses Supplies while time warping, and only gains Supplies while I am loaded with that particular RAM.

It sounds to me like you're starting to notice one of the core simplifications of KSP:

Nothing happens to any ship not in physics range.  It's all simulated via catch-up when they enter physics range.

It's hard to say exactly what's going on from what you've posted above, but my guess is rounding errors due to small storage.  Physics catch-up is done in 6-hour blocks, and if you don't have the 6 hours of storage for every resource output/input, then things will overflow/shutdown (as appropriate) on the rest.  The fix is to add more storage - preferably in large containers, to help prevent rounding errors.

Of course, you could just be looking at the USI-LS supply panel - which will dutifully remember what the state was last time you looked at a ship, and count down based on that.  It also won't update to the 'actual' numbers until you bring the ship back into physics range, but instead does a crude estimate.