[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, canisin said:

Hello All,

I have been researching MKS for a while and now I am confused . I can't really remember what I read where and which is up to date or not and my head is filled with misinformation. Can someone please explain any existing or past integration between MKS and OSE, EPL and Ground Construction. I get the feeling that MKS previously had integration with OSE and EPL, but maybe dropped those for Ground Construction? Or what? Any suggestions? Should I install any of those mods along with the USI constellation? Any suggestions? 

Thanks!

MKS is fully integrated with OSE (it has custom configs for some parts) and GC (it has custom workshop efficiency cfgs for every part and MKTs are used to build ships-heck, it's a dependency). EPL support it also there, but is no longer officially supported so its current status with respects to 'does it work' is unknown.

[canisin]

Just now, voicey99 said:

MKS is fully integrated with OSE (it has custom configs for some parts) and GC (it has custom workshop efficiency cfgs for every part and MKTs are used to build ships-heck, it's a dependency). EPL support it also there, but is no longer officially supported so its current status with respects to 'does it work' is unknown.

Can you explain a little bit please?

I believe MKT stands for Material Kits. Right?

What can I not do in MKS without OSE? What does OSE add to MKS? Does MKS include any OSE functionality in a limited form?

What can I not do in MKS without GC? Or scratch that, as GC is bundled with MKS, I guess this is not really a question, right? Or is the bundled GC a subset of regular GC? If so, once again, what are the differences?

[voicey99]

Just now, canisin said:

Can you explain a little bit please?

I believe MKT stands for Material Kits. Right?

What can I not do in MKS without OSE? What does OSE add to MKS? Does MKS include any OSE functionality in a limited form?

What can I not do in MKS without GC? Or scratch that, as GC is bundled with MKS, I guess this is not really a question, right? Or is the bundled GC a subset of regular GC? If so, once again, what are the differences?

MKT is materialkits, yes. OSE is not required for MKS or vice versa, but there is a patch that adds whatever functionality OSE needs to several of the workshoppy parts. I've never uses OSE so I have no idea what this does. I'm also not entirely sure about what in MKS needs GC, but the bundled GC is tailored to MKS (i.e. it doesn't have some patches that are already covered by MKS)-it's probably something to do with the fact that it's much quicker, easier and cheaper to build base components onsite with advanced bases than ship everything in from Kerbin. This is since EPL support was discontinued.

[goldenpsp]

3 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

MKT is materialkits, yes. OSE is not required for MKS or vice versa, but there is a patch that adds whatever functionality OSE needs to several of the workshoppy parts. I've never uses OSE so I have no idea what this does. I'm also not entirely sure about what in MKS needs GC, but the bundled GC is tailored to MKS (i.e. it doesn't have some patches that are already covered by MKS)-it's probably something to do with the fact that it's much quicker, easier and cheaper to build base components onsite with advanced bases than ship everything in from Kerbin. This is since EPL support was discontinued.

OSE is like a KIS printer.  Pretty much if it can fit into a KIS container OSE can make it.  I actually find OSE more useful than GC or EPL.  Crap I lost my drill, print a new one.  Oops I jumped Jeb into a solar panel and broke it,  I'll print a new one.  Seriiously did I not bring enough KAS pipes? I'll print a few extra.

[DStaal]

8 minutes ago, canisin said:

Can you explain a little bit please?

I believe MKT stands for Material Kits. Right?

What can I not do in MKS without OSE? What does OSE add to MKS? Does MKS include any OSE functionality in a limited form?

What can I not do in MKS without GC? Or scratch that, as GC is bundled with MKS, I guess this is not really a question, right? Or is the bundled GC a subset of regular GC? If so, once again, what are the differences?

Yep, he's using MKT to stand for Material Kits.  (I tend to use just MK.)

OSE lets you build parts (not whole ships - just single parts) on-site, in special workshops - MKS has some parts that are configured as those workshops.  (It also includes some very large KIS containers - which means you can build very large parts.)  That functionality is only available if you have OSE installed.  It's nice if you need another flex-o-tube or something to complete a base.

GC is an offworld construction mod - and MKS is about building bases off-world, so you're expected to want to do some off-world construction.    The only real difference between the bundled GC and the full GC is that the full GC includes it's own workshop (and resource storage/conversion) parts.  MKS has it's own, so CG's aren't needed.  (And GC's need a couple of other dependencies, which was starting to create a long dependency chain, and there were some interactions between GC's dependencies and other mods that people like that RoverDude didn't need to deal with.)  No differences is what's possible - just differences in parts.

[canisin]

Hmm, thanks a lot for the replies. I have also gone and read a little bit more about these mods. So let me try to clarify some more.

1) EPL: Replaced by GC. 

2) GC: Already bundled in and I don't think I need either the additional parts or the dependencies. This mod allows the on site construction of ships. But from what I understand, ship construction requires the DIY Kits. And those, I think I need to send over from Kerbin, right? 

3) OSE: On site "printing" of parts. There is a good integration between MSK and OSE. But if I install OSE on top of MKS, will there be multiple printer modules? Also if I use OSE, will I be able to print DIY Kits on site?

As an additinal question: Is recycling parts into Material Kits a base feature of MKS, or is it from one of these mods?

[goldenpsp]

2 minutes ago, canisin said:

Hmm, thanks a lot for the replies. I have also gone and read a little bit more about these mods. So let me try to clarify some more.

1) EPL: Replaced by GC. 

2) GC: Already bundled in and I don't think I need either the additional parts or the dependencies. This mod allows the on site construction of ships. But from what I understand, ship construction requires the DIY Kits. And those, I think I need to send over from Kerbin, right? 

3) OSE: On site "printing" of parts. There is a good integration between MSK and OSE. But if I install OSE on top of MKS, will there be multiple printer modules? Also if I use OSE, will I be able to print DIY Kits on site?

As an additinal question: Is recycling parts into Material Kits a base feature of MKS, or is it from one of these mods?

1. Not exactly replaced, just officially supported.  That being said unless something major changes on either side, the EPL configs will remain valid for the forseeable future.

2. Yes DIY kits are made in the VAB and shipped.

3. Yes and yes (supported but not bundled).  Never tried but in theory if the DIY kit fit into KIS storage you might be able to build it with OSE.

4. Base feature of MKS.

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, goldenpsp said:

2. Yes DIY kits are made in the VAB and shipped.

Offworld making of DIYKits is on the roadmap

Just now, goldenpsp said:

3. Yes and yes (supported but not bundled).  Never tried but in theory if the DIY kit fit into KIS storage you might be able to build it with OSE.

No duplicate printer modules though, since I don't think OSE defines printer modules in the MKS parts by default.

1 minute ago, goldenpsp said:

4. Base feature of MKS.

Can also be turned into recyclables.

[canisin]

Thank you both for your answers.

I like to keep to a certain level of realism/challenge in my game. I feel like both the disassembly and the printing may be somewhat too much of a short cut. Would you think that these two features are adequately balanced?

Like, for example, I don't think the part disassembly should be a good source of Material Kits. Is this the case?

I have read both here and on the OSE thread that the OSE printer can print anything as long as it can fit in a KIS container. That whole bases can be printed on situ given time and resources. Can this be limited? I read over on the OSE thread that the MKS workshops had had mass based limits on their printing abilities, but then again voicey99 has just said that MKS parts do not function as printers.

(I know I can test these myself, but I am at work and I am trying to feed my addiction with this discussion :))

[voicey99]

Just now, canisin said:

I like to keep to a certain level of realism/challenge in my game. I feel like both the disassembly and the printing may be somewhat too much of a short cut. Would you think that these two features are adequately balanced?

Like, for example, I don't think the part disassembly should be a good source of Material Kits. Is this the case?

I have read both here and on the OSE thread that the OSE printer can print anything as long as it can fit in a KIS container. That whole bases can be printed on situ given time and resources. Can this be limited? I read over on the OSE thread that the MKS workshops had had mass based limits on their printing abilities, but then again voicey99 has just said that MKS parts do not function as printers.

(I know I can test these myself, but I am at work and I am trying to feed my addiction with this discussion :))

Part disassembly is simply a good way to recycle your booster stages after delivering modules, it's not intended to be a long-term source. I don't know how many MKTs you need to make a part with OSE, but agreed, it should be more than you get from disassembling it.

What I meant was that I think parts need to have the OSE printer cfg module added to be able to print parts, and this has to be added manually so without that patch MKS parts will not print stuff. I don't know about the limits but I would guess that the parts are placed in a KIS container once printed for placement with KIS so yes, you could probably assemble bases that way. GC is much better for this though, as it makes whole ships at once.

[goldenpsp]

10 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Offworld making of DIYKits is on the roadmap

No duplicate printer modules though, since I don't think OSE defines printer modules in the MKS parts by default.

Yes offworld is on the roadmap, but in it's current form shipping from Kerbin is the only option.

You do get both the OSE printing modules as well as the OSE enabled MKS parts.

[voicey99]

Just now, goldenpsp said:

You do get both the OSE printing modules as well as the OSE enabled MKS parts.

I've never used OSE so this is all based on stuff I've heard and WMG on my part. Are you saying that all parts have OSE modules by default, and the patch just adds another, better module on top of the first?

[canisin]

Just now, voicey99 said:

Part disassembly is simply a good way to recycle your booster stages after delivering modules, it's not intended to be a long-term source. I don't know how many MKTs you need to make a part with OSE, but agreed, it should be more than you get from disassembling it.

What I meant was that I think parts need to have the OSE printer cfg module added to be able to print parts, and this has to be added manually so without that patch MKS parts will not print stuff. I don't know about the limits but I would guess that the parts are placed in a KIS container once printed for placement with KIS so yes, you could probably assemble bases that way. GC is much better for this though, as it makes whole ships at once.

No, no, on the opposite, I actually don't want to be able to "print" whole ships off in situ. I would rather have only a limited ability. Enough to print maybe a solar panel but not a whole engine or a colonization module. Is it possible to impose limits on the printers?

[voicey99]

Just now, canisin said:

No, no, on the opposite, I actually don't want to be able to "print" whole ships off in situ. I would rather have only a limited ability. Enough to print maybe a solar panel but not a whole engine or a colonization module. Is it possible to impose limits on the printers?

If my WMG is correct and it simply places these parts in a nearby KIS container, what you can print would be limited by the size of the container.

[DStaal]

2 minutes ago, canisin said:

Thank you both for your answers.

I like to keep to a certain level of realism/challenge in my game. I feel like both the disassembly and the printing may be somewhat too much of a short cut. Would you think that these two features are adequately balanced?

Like, for example, I don't think the part disassembly should be a good source of Material Kits. Is this the case?

I have read both here and on the OSE thread that the OSE printer can print anything as long as it can fit in a KIS container. That whole bases can be printed on situ given time and resources. Can this be limited? I read over on the OSE thread that the MKS workshops had had mass based limits on their printing abilities, but then again voicey99 has just said that MKS parts do not function as printers.

(I know I can test these myself, but I am at work and I am trying to feed my addiction with this discussion :))

Part disassembly is a good source in that it's a convenient source - but that is because you likely have some parts that aren't useful once you've landed on the surface.  It is not a good source in terms of mass/fuel used to get the MaterialKits in place, as it is lossy: You get less mass of MaterialKits than the part you disassembled had.  (So you can't disassemble something and then remake it using OSE - you'll won't have enough materials.)

At one point I remember there being some talk of OSE printers being possibly limited in the volume they can print - independent of the volume of the containers attached.  I don't believe that's implemented at the moment, but I'm not sure.  Regardless, I find that printing a base - while theoretically possible - is very difficult.  First off, the largest KIS container I'm aware of is the 5m Kontainer - so anything larger than that you don't even have a way to print in the first place.  (And remember the storage does have to be attached to the same vessel as is doing the printing.)  Secondly, you then have to take it out of the KIS storage and put it someplace - and there are KIS limits on moving large/heavy parts.  (Though there are ways around that.)  Thirdly, I find OSE printing to be fairly slow, so it's often faster to ship and complete a DIY container than to print all the parts for the ship.

And lastly of course, you can impose on yourself a personal limitation.  Nothing that won't fit in a Kerbal's inventory or suchlike.

4 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

I've never used OSE so this is all based on stuff I've heard and WMG on my part. Are you saying that all parts have OSE modules by default, and the patch just adds another, better module on top of the first?

No.  OSE ships some parts that have the printing modules, and MKS has some parts with the OSE printing modules in the config.  (But just having the modules in the config doesn't do anything without the mod.)

 

[goldenpsp]

Just now, voicey99 said:

I've never used OSE so this is all based on stuff I've heard and WMG on my part. Are you saying that all parts have OSE modules by default, and the patch just adds another, better module on top of the first?

There is already an OSE config in MKS that adds OSE functionality to MKS parts if OSE is installed.  But MKS doesn't hide the OSE parts so they show up as well.  They aren't "better" or "worse".

 

2 minutes ago, canisin said:

No, no, on the opposite, I actually don't want to be able to "print" whole ships off in situ. I would rather have only a limited ability. Enough to print maybe a solar panel but not a whole engine or a colonization module. Is it possible to impose limits on the printers?

As @voicey99 said OSE is restricted to printing things that will fit inside a KIS container, so can only print so large of an item.  Also you then would have to be able to pull that item out of KIS storage.  So if it is too big/heavy you would run into the same KIS issues with trying to manipulate large parts, like needing multiple kerbals to be able to carry it etc.

In short I don't find any of the building mods to be OP.

OSE is handy to print something I forgot or broke, but it's always easier to ship a KIS container of spare parts I might want/need.

EPL can build completely in situ, but generally it is mass neutral.  So I need the same mass of parts as the final build would take, and it can take a lot of time to build.

GC I find it is useful in cases where I have something that is oddly shaped.  I can launch a DIY kit "box" far easier from kerbin and have it expand out at the destination.  But it still takes the same effort to launch that mass to the destination.

 

[canisin]

7 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

WMG

Your what?

Also, I have gone ahead and downloaded the USI Constellation and the OSE Workshop mods to go thru their contents and found an OSE patch in MKS. It looks great! It replaces OSE resources with MKS resources, adds printing modules to MKS workshops, removes OSE's stock drill patches as the production of the required resources are already covered by MKS. The only thing it doesn't do is to modify the original OSE workshop with similar limitations, either that, or I am failing to see it.

Edit: Thanks for the further clarifications that were sent while I was posting this reply!

PS: This patch made me very happy! I like how the USI suite is consistent and apparently rather well balanced, too!

Edited May 31, 2017 by canisin

[DStaal]

2 minutes ago, canisin said:

Your what?

Also, I have gone ahead and downloaded the USI Constellation and the OSE Workshop mods to go thru their contents and found an OSE patch in MKS. It looks great! It replaces OSE resources with MKS resources, adds printing modules to MKS workshops, removes OSE's stock drill patches as the production of the required resources are already covered by MKS. The only thing it doesn't do is to modify the original OSE workshop with similar limitations, either that, or I am failing to see it.

Like EL, the resources used to print a part are not configured in the workshop, but in the DLL.  Any workshop will use the same recipe to build the same part, and have limitations based on the same rules.

 

(I honestly don't understand the line of thinking that supposes building something with one workshop is different than building it with another, but I've seen multiple people thinking both EL and OSE have to be configured on a per-workshop basis.)

[voicey99]

Just now, canisin said:

Your what?

Also, I have gone ahead and downloaded the USI Constellation and the OSE Workshop mods to go thru their contents and found an OSE patch in MKS. It looks great! It replaces OSE resources with MKS resources, adds printing modules to MKS workshops, removes OSE's stock drill patches as the production of the required resources are already covered by MKS. The only thing it doesn't do is to modify the original OSE workshop with similar limitations, either that, or I am failing to see it.

WMG=Wild Mass Guessing.

The patch doesn't modify the OSE workshop beyond configuring it to run off MKTs-no need to, really.

[canisin]

Just now, DStaal said:

Like EL, the resources used to print a part are not configured in the workshop, but in the DLL.  Any workshop will use the same recipe to build the same part, and have limitations based on the same rules.

 

(I honestly don't understand the line of thinking that supposes building something with one workshop is different than building it with another, but I've seen multiple people thinking both EL and OSE have to be configured on a per-workshop basis.)

I am not sure what you mean, but in MKS's OSE config, you can see the following lines:

@PART[Ranger_Workshop]:NEEDS[Workshop]	//Workshop is a very high efficiency high volume workshop
{
  MODULE
  {
	<snip>
    MaxPartVolume = 4000.0
	<snip>

@PART[Tundra_Workshop250]:NEEDS[Workshop] //Tundra-250 is smaller, less efficient
{
  MODULE
  {
      <snip>
      MaxPartVolume = 1000.0
      <snip>

Although, I don't know if these limits are implemented?

[goldenpsp]

3 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

WMG=Wild Mass Guessing.

The patch doesn't modify the OSE workshop beyond configuring it to run off MKTs-no need to, really.

Actually that isn't entirely accurate.  OSE is the mod that came up with MaterialKits and Roverdude adopted them from working together with Obivandamme.  So the patch doesn't need to change that as OSE uses materialkits out of the box.

1 minute ago, canisin said:

I am not sure what you mean, but in MKS's OSE config, you can see the following lines:

@PART[Ranger_Workshop]:NEEDS[Workshop]	//Workshop is a very high efficiency high volume workshop
{
  MODULE
  {
	<snip>
    MaxPartVolume = 4000.0
	<snip>

@PART[Tundra_Workshop250]:NEEDS[Workshop] //Tundra-250 is smaller, less efficient
{
  MODULE
  {
      <snip>
      MaxPartVolume = 1000.0
      <snip>

Although, I don't know if these limits are implemented?

Last time I used OSE those limits were implemented.

[DStaal]

2 minutes ago, canisin said:

I am not sure what you mean, but in MKS's OSE config, you can see the following lines:

@PART[Ranger_Workshop]:NEEDS[Workshop]	//Workshop is a very high efficiency high volume workshop
{
  MODULE
  {
	<snip>
    MaxPartVolume = 4000.0
	<snip>

@PART[Tundra_Workshop250]:NEEDS[Workshop] //Tundra-250 is smaller, less efficient
{
  MODULE
  {
      <snip>
      MaxPartVolume = 1000.0
      <snip>

Although, I don't know if these limits are implemented?

I was talking about thinking it takes different resources to print a kit using an OSE workshop than an MKS workshop - because MKS includes a patch to change something about the resources used to print something.    (Though I'm not sure if that's true in OSE's case - I haven't looked.  I know MKS includes a patch to change what you need to build something with EL.)

And yes, those are what I was referring to in my other post: That there's a limit to how large a particular workshop can print.  I'm not entirely sure that limit is still in effect, but I don't find OSE useful for things much larger than a Kerbal can carry in the first place.

[canisin]

Just now, goldenpsp said:

Actually that isn't entirely accurate.  OSE is the mod that came up with MaterialKits and Roverdude adopted them from working together with Obivandamme.  So the patch doesn't need to change that as OSE uses materialkits out of the box.

Last time I used OSE those limits were implemented.

Then YAY! I can satisfy my desired difficulty/realism with those limits. Of course volume is not at all a measure of complexity, but it is a good limit none the less. Also, if I feel necessary I can tweak the limits. As for OSE's own workshop, I can either ignore it, modify it, or even delete it!

[Kwarazi]

4 hours ago, infe5tedneptune said:

Does MKS work properly with Kerbalism?

As far as I am aware no it doesn't. but I may be wrong

 

4 hours ago, HaArLiNsH said:

This is the same story at every patch, CKAN is great but it can destroy your campaign if steam auto-update your game and you don't have an alternative version somewhere. Lost 2 campaigns before before doing this technique. 

But as CKAN can be annoying, I don't think there is an alternative when you use 50+ mod  

Yes there is I have over 70 mods and I don't use CKAN you can install KSP-AVC checker and just update the mods as and when it says they are out of date, tbh its probably more reliable than CKAN. 

[Moonratt]

BAH! installed MKS/OKS manually, problem solved. At least it seems to be. No crash at start, so that's a bonus. Should probably have tried this first. >.<

I'm running into an issue with KSP 1.3 crashing on launch when I install the MKS/OKS module and it's required mods. This is a clean install of 1.3 by the way.

Other than the RoverDude mods, I have Module Manager, MechJeb2, MechJeb Embedded, MehcJeb and Engineer for All!, the 1.3 version of Kerbal Engineer from  Curse which I believe is the latest version, TextureReplacers, and KSP AVC.

With the exception of Engineer, this is all installed via CKAN.

The error logs are here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u07laxqs1gzjd8y/AADPjNH8h9DQWleDf1f5sc6Fa?dl=0

If I remove MKS/OKS and it's related mods, the program will load correctly.

So, I've looked through previous pages and may have missed any related fixes/posts, if they exist let me know to keep looking.

Otherwise, uh... any suggestions? It looks like files that are needed aren't being created correctly or at all. I suspect the issue is actually one of the non-Roverdude mods since they're still showing as being good to 1.2.2 only. I don't see an updated version of Ground Construction Core, Configurable Containers Core, or AT Utils anywhere. Am I missing something? I can't for the life of me figure out where the break really is. I'm also no programmer so I'm kind of floundering here.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions offered.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Moonratt
Updated. I think I found the solution.