KSP Weekly: We’re back!

[regex]

10 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Wasn't that quote in the context of the localization work? Presumably they are replacing textures that have English words on them with versions that have those words translated into the other languages.

Yeah, that was the context.

Got me excited for a bit there, the prospect of not having trash cans for 2.5m parts is appealing...

[FullMetalMachinist]

7 hours ago, Talavar said:

I haven't played KSP for almost 3 months now. Every so often, I come back to see if anything worthwhile is happening. Unfortunately, it's never there.

So, you have stopped playing a game you paid for because it's no longer putting out exciting new stuff for free? That seems a little...silly. 

[basic.syntax]

1 hour ago, regex said:

... the prospect of not having trash cans for 2.5m parts is appealing...

A thought that's probably been thought before: "wouldn't it be nice if..."  (a ton of work usually follows this dangerous phrase) all of the available parts to a career-mode Tier "improved / modernized" in looks (texture) and design (model tweaks) as each new SPH / VAB Tier is unlocked. Then we could preserve the existing parts for Tier 1 -launched craft, and see something suitably "modernized" for Tier 2 -launched craft using the same parts.

[Terwin]

1 hour ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

So, you have stopped playing a game you paid for because it's no longer putting out exciting new stuff for free? That seems a little...silly. 

Especially with so much exciting stuff happening with Mods.

Have you seen the stuff RoverDude has been doing of late with his mods? 

* Unfolding construction parts without needing Infernal Robotics(cranes, fork-lifts, wheels, etc)

* Construction docking ports that can be 'collapsed' to weld two parts together so that large stations no longer consist primarily of docking ports.(leaving nothing behind so that the final station could even be Stock)

* A revamp of his much used Colonization system that he released with 1.2

* New, lower cost specialist kerbals so you don't need to use Generalists(Pilot, Engineer, Scientist) everywhere.

* a new resource harvesting mechanic, so that in addition to using drills to harvest locally available resources, you can no collect and extract raw materials from Resource nodes(~25 ton chunks of raw materials akin to landed asteroids that can be refined like super-rich dirt)

* And he is currently working on integrating a new construction mechanic involving delivery of 'do it yourself' kits that can be used to assemble vehicles/bases/extensions in place

 

[regex]

14 minutes ago, basic.syntax said:

A thought that's probably been thought before: "wouldn't it be nice if..."  (a ton of work usually follows this dangerous phrase) all of the available parts to a career-mode Tier "improved / modernized" in looks (texture) and design (model tweaks) as each new SPH / VAB Tier is unlocked. Then we could preserve the existing parts for Tier 1 -launched craft, and see something suitably "modernized" for Tier 2 -launched craft using the same parts.

No thanks. I hate, and I mean hate, the whole "junkyard" motif of KSP, it plays too well into the disgusting "disaster simulator" meme that has infected the game.

E: And from a more practical standpoint, why would you eat up RAM with textures you're not using? Yeah, that should probably be fixed at some point, but why exacerbate the problem?

Edited January 12, 2017 by regex

[Wjolcz]

2 hours ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

So, you have stopped playing a game you paid for because it's no longer putting out exciting new stuff for free? That seems a little...silly. 

I don't think he means "where is more stuff?" but rather "where's the fixed gameplay stuff (like the career and parts)?". I could make here a list of what's so "wrong and kerbal" about this game but that would be going offtopic and I try to obey the rules of this forum.

I'll just say that I'm in a similar situation here. The game is appealing as far as building and testing goes, but if the career is stock I'm not touching it.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Veeltch

[FullMetalMachinist]

40 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

I don't think he means "where is more stuff?" but rather "where's the fixed gameplay stuff (like the career and parts)?"

I hate to break it to you, but heavy development of the game has passed. We're now in 'polish and bugfix' stage. And as @regex has said, I seriously doubt that Squad is going to re-visit career mode at this point. 

 

42 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

I'll just say that I'm having I'm in a similar situation here. The game is appealing as far as building and testing goes, but if the career is stock I'm not touching it.

FWIW, I agree with you. I'm just saying that refusing to play a game that is completely playable just because the developers aren't giving you juicy new things is silly. 

[Wjolcz]

1 minute ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

I hate to break it to you, but heavy development of the game has passed. We're now in 'polish and bugfix' stage. And as @regex has said, I seriously doubt that Squad is going to re-visit career mode at this point. 

I'm afraid this is the most likely scenario. That's why I don't have much hope in KSP's development and would rather see a new kerbal game (preferably a flight sim one) with a clear development plan and everything in place from the begining.

4 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

FWIW, I agree with you. I'm just saying that refusing to play a game that is completely playable just because the developers aren't giving you juicy new things is silly. 

Well, okay. It's playable. We can agree on that. It's just not very fun in some cases/places/modes.

[asmi]

10 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

I'm just saying that refusing to play a game that is completely playable just because the developers aren't giving you juicy new things is silly. 

Why it is silly? Do you always feel like you HAVE TO continue playing game you don't like (or burned out of) just because someone claimed that it's "playable"?

[FullMetalMachinist]

16 minutes ago, asmi said:

Why it is silly? Do you always feel like you HAVE TO continue playing game you don't like (or burned out of) just because someone claimed that it's "playable"?

This is getting slightly off topic, but oh well. My original 'silly' comment was directed at this quote:

Quote

Chances are, that secret stuff is nothing worthwhile. Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe they'll Bomb-shell us with gas planet 2!  Or maybe, the days of excitement have finally ended.. I haven't played KSP for almost 3 months now. Every so often, I come back to see if anything worthwhile is happening. Unfortunately, it's never there.

All things must end. 
C'est la vie

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it seems to me that he has stopped playing specifically because there are no exciting things development wise going on. He doesn't mention being burned out or bored, just that there's no new stuff going on. 

I'm obviously not saying that if someone buys a game they MUST keep playing it until the end of time. 

But going on the assumption that he still enjoys playing the game, and the only reason that he isn't is because Squad isn't still developing it like he would like, is silly. Now it's entirely possible that my assumption is wrong. That's why my original comment was stated as a question asking "is this really why you're not playing? If so, that seems silly." 

[pellinor]

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

Have you seen the stuff RoverDude has been doing of late with his mods? 

I'd add one more thing

* a large balance pass over all his parts using a giant spreadsheet to make part size, mass and abilities more consistent. So he would be a good person to do the same with the stock parts.

[basic.syntax]

3 hours ago, regex said:

No thanks. I hate, and I mean hate, the whole "junkyard" motif of KSP, it plays too well into the disgusting "disaster simulator" meme that has infected the game.

E: And from a more practical standpoint, why would you eat up RAM with textures you're not using? Yeah, that should probably be fixed at some point, but why exacerbate the problem?

Leaving aside technicals, and the amount of work involved that may preclude it: I will disagree, agreeably. The KSC buildings do this. I like the concept of a visual progression from the "early days" to the "modern era." 

[regex]

13 minutes ago, basic.syntax said:

Leaving aside technicals, and the amount of work involved that may preclude it: I will disagree, agreeably. The KSC buildings do this. I like the concept of a visual progression from the "early days" to the "modern era." 

Okay.

[NoMrBond]

3 hours ago, regex said:

E: And from a more practical standpoint, why would you eat up RAM with textures you're not using? Yeah, that should probably be fixed at some point, but why exacerbate the problem?

If the KSC/Planetary (non-scaled space) textures/assets were moved into asset bundles, they could be dynamically loaded/unloaded as necessary

[evileye.x]

On 09.01.2017 at 7:40 AM, regex said:

 

I'm curious how many times people have to point out that career mode feels like a disjointed pile of mostly unrelated and "forced" features before Squad finally acknowledges it.

 

I know you hate career for real, but don't really understand that. What exactly is so disappointing for you in career? Contacts? - there are descent contract  packs. Strategies? - Strategia.

Research? - Alternative trees, Science Revisited Revisited, SEP, DMagic orbital science, Station Science and so on...

Logic in progression ? - RP-0 (I guess, never tried it yet, just saw some let's plays.)

Balance? The only attempt on it AFAIR Better Then Started Manned, but it is not very ... sandboxy.... and obsolete (last version for 1.0.4 I guess)

Want more ... let's say ... harder fun gameplay and planning? Life support, ScanSat,  KIS, KAS, KCT, reaction wheels nerf, upscales and etc...

Stock career is like tutorial when you discover parts one by one node. And contracts give you general idea "what to launch next"

Then, if you are rocket person, you will move on using mods anyway. And there tons of mods to improve your experience, you know. (However, that's why I end up with 80+ mods - THAT'S NUMBER DOES NOT INCLUDE PURE PARTS MODS  )

Stock game itself sucks to be honest as finished and polished product. Even skybox is unforgivable blurry.

Rockets parts too junky. Can't do without Ven's stock revamp. 

Playing stock KSP feels like huge waste of game potential. However, it's enjoyable for a start. 

God bless modders. And bless SQUAD developers who made KSP as descent platform for modding.

I don't expect any further development from SQUAD team, because... you know...

My opinion on localisation - waste of time and efforts. Not going to play in russian language , what's the point if mods will not be translated anyway?...

My guess they are trying to sell more copies to non-english speakers, it's good but I doubt it will bring a lot of cash.

Edited January 13, 2017 by evileye.x

[John FX]

1 hour ago, evileye.x said:

I know you hate career for real, but don't really understand that. What exactly is so disappointing for you in career? Contacts? - there are decent contract  packs. Strategies? - Strategia.

Research? - Alternative trees, Science Revisited Revisited, SEP, DMagic orbital science, Station Science and so on...

Logic in progression ? - RP-0 (I guess, never tried it yet, just saw some let's plays.)

Balance? The only attempt on it AFAIR Better Than Started Manned, but it is not very ... sandboxy.... and obsolete (last version for 1.0.4 I guess)

Want more ... let's say ... harder fun gameplay and planning? Life support, ScanSat,  KIS, KAS, KCT, reaction wheels nerf, upscales and etc...

Stock career is like tutorial when you discover parts one by one node. And contracts give you general idea "what to launch next"

Then, if you are rocket person, you will move on using mods anyway. And there tons of mods to improve your experience, you know. (However, that's why I end up with 80+ mods - THAT'S NUMBER DOES NOT INCLUDE PURE PARTS MODS  )

Stock game itself sucks to be honest as finished and polished product. Even skybox is unforgivable blurry.

Rockets parts too junky. Can't do without Ven's stock revamp. 

Playing stock KSP feels like huge waste of game potential. However, it's enjoyable for a start. 

God bless modders. And bless SQUAD developers who made KSP as descent platform for modding.

I don't expect any further development from SQUAD team, because... you know...

My opinion on localisation - waste of time and efforts. Not going to play in russian language , what's the point if mods will not be translated anyway?...

My guess they are trying to sell more copies to non-english speakers, it's good but I doubt it will bring a lot of cash.

And this is why I talk about things that can and cannot be done with mods or stock.

This is the new area of development for the game, mods.

If there isn`t a mod maker developing it, nobody is developing it.

The game will slowly stop changing (if it has not already stopped) and become `the last stable release` at which point the concerns about mods (updates break them, devs stop updating them etc) become moot.

Want better career? Mods

Want a texture pass? Mods

Want <insert anything here>? Mods

The one thing that will not happen is Squad putting the time in to fix the glaring issues with the game, they have entered the polish stage and no further real work will be done.

This is why when Regex said launches were tedious I suggested Mechjeb to remove the tedium of launches. Maybe routine mission manager would be better or davon supply mod. If you want the grind inherent in career gone then you will either have to write the mod that does it in the exact way you want or wait for someone else to write it but you will get no joy from Squad.

If it is not possible to write a mod that changes the things you need, possibly due to hard coded variables or other factors, then a more open API is needed and the time to hassle Squad to get that done is now but that time is rapidly running out.

tl;dr stop hassling squad to do work on features or changes to the game, they won`t. Hassle squad to make it possible for modders to work on the game to do what you want. It`s the only way it will happen now, if at all.

 

[regex]

7 hours ago, evileye.x said:

I know you hate career for real, but don't really understand that. What exactly is so disappointing for you in career?

Are the rest of my comments in the thread too hard to read or something?

Here's something I wrote in another thread, maybe that will be easier reading.

Quote

Career mode feels like a bunch of unrelated or "forced" features slapped together and called a "game". It's really not that good other than to provide arbitrary goals to people who don't want to set their own. It involves a lot of grind because you have to plan and fly every mission yourself, and the accumulation of funds, science, and reputation all rely on you flying each mission. There is no end goal except for completing the tech tree which basically implies starting over or playing a sort of sandbox mode (in which case why not just play sandbox mode...) Strategies are basically useless because of steep buy-in costs which results in a lack of usefulness when they could be critically important decisions (like when starting a new game). The tech tree is based more on introducing new players to the parts rather than a logical progression. Rather than the early game being relatively easy and having challenges ramp up as time goes by KSP has it inverted for new players; all of the challenge is at the beginning when there is no SAS and the buildings put harsh limits on the player. Kerbal "experience" and building unlocks feel very much like "forced" features, like someone asked "How can we make this meaningful?" instead of "Should we make this meaningful?"

Now, as noted, a lot of this can be addressed with mods except for the one thing I really have an issue with, and that's the early mid-game cash/science grind, which I specifically addressed in this exact thread, over multiple posts. Even RP-0 suffers from it, only it has it worse because of the longer launch times and the need to wait for research to complete and buildings to be built.

5 hours ago, John FX said:

This is why when Regex said launches were tedious I suggested Mechjeb to remove the tedium of launches.

Ah, I see, you literally weren't comprehending what I was saying.

Mechjeb (or kOS or Gravity Turn or whatever else you offer to automate launches) doesn't take the tedium out of launches, they still have to be done. I mean, sure, I can fire and forget, alt-tab out or something, but then why the hell am I taking up my computer time playing KSP? I'd rather use my computer to play something else. What's worse is that at some point I'm going to have to do a string of uninteresting missions for the sole purpose of getting enough cash to upgrade a building or something and while I normally wouldn't have a problem with that in other games because they'll find something else to keep me occupied while the infrastructure is being built, KSP has me attending every damn mission.

I like launching rockets, designing and completing interesting missions. I enjoy flying by hand, even in RO; it's one of the things I really like about playing KSP. I don't want that fun taken away from me but career mode certainly tries its damndest.

Anyway, that's all a moot point because, as I said upthread before this somehow exploded:

Quote

I should probably just stick to playing sandbox since that's what drew me into the game.

And yet I keep trying out career mode every new update just so I know what I'm talking about. I must be a masochist or something.

Quote

Stock game itself sucks to be honest as finished and polished product. Even skybox is unforgivable blurry.

And you don't think Squad should fix that? That's ridiculous.

Quote

Rockets parts too junky. Can't do without Ven's stock revamp.

No, Squad should do an art pass, unify the parts' styling, fix the skybox, etc... I shouldn't have to rely on the community to make the game look like the polished, release-quality game that Squad claims it is.

Edited January 13, 2017 by regex

[Arsonide]

On 1/8/2017 at 8:40 PM, regex said:

I'm curious how many times people have to point out that career mode feels like a disjointed pile of mostly unrelated and "forced" features before Squad finally acknowledges it. Probably isn't worth it, rewriting a good chunk of the game would be a pain.

These sorts of things depend on a bit more than how many vocal advocates there are on this forum though. If you pick out any individual feature, it's going to have someone that thinks it could use improvement, and has written a very long forum post or two about this assertion. As an example, there was an independent poll a while back with a several thousand responses that showed that over 60% of the player-base primarily played career mode. If you just read the forums, then this number will probably surprise you.

The problem with career mode is that everybody has different ideas about what exactly it should or should not be, and the ones that feel strongly enough come and post about it. That results in a rather one sided discussion here sometimes that gets a bit confusing if you look at the actual overall statistics. The job of any developer (including modders) is to take that feedback into account, and find one solution that satisfies everybody that is also within the realm of possible implementation.

It's a bit like finding a unicorn made of cotton candy.

[regex]

2 hours ago, Arsonide said:

As an example, there was an independent poll a while back with a several thousand responses that showed that over 60% of the player-base primarily played career mode. If you just read the forums, then this number will probably surprise you.

Not particularly surprising, anecdotal experience suggests to me that more people want a guided experience that doesn't require them to define or set their own goals within a game.

Quote

The problem with career mode is that everybody has different ideas about what exactly it should or should not be

Yes, and unfortunately a one-size-fits-all approach ends up pleasing no one.

Quote

The job of any developer (including modders) is to take that feedback into account, and find one solution that satisfies everybody that is also within the realm of possible implementation.

I disagree, most especially when the solution that tries to satisfy everyone ends up compromising the whole of the project. Sometimes you need to stop trying to please everyone because you'll end up pleasing no one.; If that's covered under your definition of "realm of possible implementation" then that's fine, we use that definition where I work as well. We're not afraid to "fire" a client that has become problematic or unreasonable in their expectations.

E: Really all the more reason to just stick to sandbox mode. Career mode really doesn't work for me and I doubt KSP will ever have the fully player-driven experience I'd like to see.

Edited January 13, 2017 by regex

[Terwin]

57 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

The problem with career mode is that everybody has different ideas about what exactly it should or should not be, and the ones that feel strongly enough come and post about it. That results in a rather one sided discussion here sometimes that gets a bit confusing if you look at the actual overall statistics. The job of any developer (including modders) is to take that feedback into account, and find one solution that satisfies everybody that is also within the realm of possible implementation.

Personally, I think the current career mode does a fine job of offering guidance and funding for the early game(as in the part before the tree is full and you have a self-funding organization).

I am not against making improvements, but my ideas on this are little more than 'make my favorite mods stock options'.  On the other hand, when others complain about the stock career mode, I am always interested to hear how they think it could be better.

57 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

It's a bit like finding a unicorn made of cotton candy.

Only if it is a living unicorn made of cotton candy that can cure cancer with the wave of it's horn and world hunger with the flick of it's tail.

 

I did have one thought:  How about a 4th mode, perhaps call it Challenge mode.

There would be a series of challenges that could be selected, anything from 'land a kerbal on the Mun and get them home safely', to 'Colonize every solid body in the solar system with at least X kerbals and Y tons of Kolony kits(Kolony kits could be nothing more than green ore tanks filled with the non-functional 'Kolony Kit' supply that is only available from the KSC).

Presumably there would be a smaller number of challenges to start with, with more added on as time goes by(probably by adding the best challenges from mods to the stock list)

Each Challenge would have a 'starting point' that is basically a save game(including starting funds/science/rep) with flags to enable or disable features such as science collection, contracts, building upgrades, specific parts or technologies, experience, etc.  ) and the contract fulfillment specifications that would indicate successful completion of the challenge (Presumably with a nice congratulatory pop-up message).

It would be nice to also be able to put in pop-up messages like in the tutorials, or the ones you get when you first visit each building, these would also be triggered by contract fulfillment specifications, perhaps call them mile-stones.

I think this would appeal to those who prefer to have a stated goal and feel kind of lost in a sandbox like KSP.

[Caelib]

No dev notes today I guess?  It's 8:30pm ....

[JPLRepo]

15 minutes ago, Caelib said:

No dev notes today I guess?  It's 8:30pm ....

Nope. you were just one minute too early.

[Talavar]

On 1/12/2017 at 2:31 PM, FullMetalMachinist said:

So, you have stopped playing a game you paid for because it's no longer putting out exciting new stuff for free? That seems a little...silly. 

Yes, Actually... lost it's flair for me. New=good... I've already landed, drilled, habitated all the planets.

 

On 1/12/2017 at 3:49 PM, Terwin said:

Especially with so much exciting stuff happening with Mods.

Have you seen the stuff RoverDude has been doing of late with his mods? 

* Unfolding construction parts without needing Infernal Robotics(cranes, fork-lifts, wheels, etc)

* Construction docking ports that can be 'collapsed' to weld two parts together so that large stations no longer consist primarily of docking ports.(leaving nothing behind so that the final station could even be Stock)

* A revamp of his much used Colonization system that he released with 1.2

* New, lower cost specialist kerbals so you don't need to use Generalists(Pilot, Engineer, Scientist) everywhere.

* a new resource harvesting mechanic, so that in addition to using drills to harvest locally available resources, you can no collect and extract raw materials from Resource nodes(~25 ton chunks of raw materials akin to landed asteroids that can be refined like super-rich dirt)

* And he is currently working on integrating a new construction mechanic involving delivery of 'do it yourself' kits that can be used to assemble vehicles/bases/extensions in place

 

 Like I said... 3 months.. That was 3 months ago. lol...

Edited January 14, 2017 by Talavar

[John FX]

17 hours ago, regex said:

Ah, I see, you literally weren't comprehending what I was saying.

Mechjeb (or kOS or Gravity Turn or whatever else you offer to automate launches) doesn't take the tedium out of launches, they still have to be done. I mean, sure, I can fire and forget, alt-tab out or something, but then why the hell am I taking up my computer time playing KSP? I'd rather use my computer to play something else. What's worse is that at some point I'm going to have to do a string of uninteresting missions for the sole purpose of getting enough cash to upgrade a building or something and while I normally wouldn't have a problem with that in other games because they'll find something else to keep me occupied while the infrastructure is being built, KSP has me attending every damn mission.

I did comprehend, which is why I suggested mods like Davon supply mod and Routine Mission Manager which do exactly that. You do not need to do the missions, you do not need to take up your computer time, they happen in the background while you play the game doing other stuff. You could launch a single craft then have as many as you want in orbit to fulfil all those pesky cash raising missions without having to essentially watch a video of each. If the problem is the missions on offer there are mods to change that too.

You have failed to comprehend what I am saying though.

If you did understand then you would stop trying to get Squad to do anything about the glaring problems with the game at this stage and focus your energies on either writing the mods needed to get the gameplay you want or encouraging others to do that on your behalf. If not possible due to limitations in the game then the focus should be opening up the API so it *can* be done.

[regex]

 

Quote

You have failed to comprehend what I am saying though.

Not at all. In fact, I've been pretty constantly acknowledging the fact that I shouldn't be wasting my time trying to play career mode because there's no real way to fix the root problems I have with it. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore comments quoting or directed at me, though.