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[1.8.x] Kerbal Foundries -- Continued - Tracks, Wheels, and Gear


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17 hours ago, qwertyza said:

Hey, folks is there any way to remove the dark icons in VAB/SPH, tweak a config for instance? I already found that it's the textures mod causing the problem. The mod is cool, and I appreciate the work, but that dependency messes with other parts of the game, and this particular one is especially annoying (I have a dark screen)

I'd pop that question in the Textures Unlimited thread. There's more people in that thread that might be able to help with that mod than in this one. (since y'know.. this thread contains mostly users of this mod)
Coincidentally, feel free to mention my name (@Jognt) if you find how to remove the darkened VAB icons as it's one of the reasons I went back to stock.

 

17 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

(yes, I'm sick of people complaining about all of the hard-work I put into it; which is why I'm likely moving on from KSP in the very near future)

This here is precisely why I stick to creating stuff for me and a few friends. It's annoying to go from "work on it when I feel like it" to "work on it because others would like me to".
Having said that, I do feel like you're venting a bigger part of your frustration towards this person than he is responsible for.
And having said that, I totally get the feeling <_<.

You've already done (and shared!) a ridiculous amount of stuff for KSP. Thank you for that.

On 5/30/2019 at 6:42 PM, Shadowmage said:

Before I would feel comfortable with publishing those patches -- they would first have to be supported.  I bashed those configs together as a personal 'test' mostly to make sure the plugin would work for stock parts.  They have received no balance updates or any sort of maintenance since they were initially put together.  Which is why I've left them just hanging out in the repo, with no official releases or packages, and the only way to get them is by manual download.

I may take you up on the offer in the future though -- there have been multiple requests for fixes for the stock wheels, and I feel kind of bad for having that fix just laying around but going unused.  Would need some time to sit down and thoroughly review the configs though, make sure the balance is all where it needs to be and that it all actually works.

Those CFGs look pretty 'done' to me. I'm assuming they only depend on KSPWheel itself so I think I'll do some A/B testing with them soon-ish. Since you mention their balance, are there factors you'd recommend me to look out for?

Edited by Jognt
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4 hours ago, Jognt said:

Coincidentally, feel free to mention my name (@Jognt) if you find how to remove the darkened VAB icons as it's one of the reasons I went back to stock.

Please contact SQUAD and tell them that modders need access to ALL of their shader source files then.  Basically, SQUAD created some terrible 'icon shader' that is used when rendering icons.  They use some very hacky functions in there to boost light levels.  But they do not provide the source of these files so that acceptable alternate implementations can be developed.  I've opened multiple issue tickets on the subject, and had zero reply.

I do not have access to those shader files, and thus cannot duplicate whatever hacks they are using to boost light levels on the icons.

Until I am provided with that source -- there is no fix.  I'm not going to spend days and days trying random stuff in the hope that something works... it is neither productive, nor satisfying.

4 hours ago, Jognt said:

Those CFGs look pretty 'done' to me. I'm assuming they only depend on KSPWheel itself so I think I'll do some A/B testing with them soon-ish. Since you mention their balance, are there factors you'd recommend me to look out for?

Indeed, they were 'done' when I uploaded them; I actually used those configs for the development of KSPWheel and all of the initial setup and testing.  Worked as far as I knew, and should still work (minus perhaps a few changes to features).

The problem is -- I don't use stock parts, nor do I feel like taking time to 'balance' the configs for stock parts that I do not use.  Moreover, I have no clue what the intended 'balance' of the stock parts is, as the information that can be extracted from the stock configs is... nonsensical at best (e.g. what is the maximum load (in N / kN) for a stock wheel before it breaks?  Where do you find that value in the stock config?  What is the maximum wheel speed?  Motor Torque?).  The values listed in the stock part configs often don't lineup with what is seen in-game, so trying to base any balance around those numerical values is difficult.

Basically -- they should work, but I don't personally want to support or distribute them, and nobody else has stepped forward offering to pick them up.  (I don't want to distribute them, because I've seen far too many issues and complaints regarding mods 'messing with stock or other mods' parts; so as a rule, I do not touch any parts or values outside of the mod that is being distributed;  Case in point.. I -did- distribute these patches for a brief while, and received numerous complaints regarding the changes to modules in the stock wheels.. not that they were broken, but merely that they were changed).

 

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@Jognt

As TS mentioned switching to 2.2.6.16 version fixed the problem, texture mod is not needed there.

BTW, I understand his concern about "complaining people who aint done sh*t", as I do some modding for skyrim myself. Still I think it's a bit of a childish approach; it's absolutely ok when someone wants to personalize his experience with a mod. After all that's the whole concept of a game mod - make the game match your taste.

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23 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Please contact SQUAD and tell them that modders need access to ALL of their shader source files then.  Basically, SQUAD created some terrible 'icon shader' that is used when rendering icons.  They use some very hacky functions in there to boost light levels.  But they do not provide the source of these files so that acceptable alternate implementations can be developed.  I've opened multiple issue tickets on the subject, and had zero reply.

I do not have access to those shader files, and thus cannot duplicate whatever hacks they are using to boost light levels on the icons.

Until I am provided with that source -- there is no fix.  I'm not going to spend days and days trying random stuff in the hope that something works... it is neither productive, nor satisfying.

Hah, this is Squad we're talking about. I know as well as you do that it would be a pointless pursuit.
Take note that I do not expect you to fix the problem.

Plenty of people don't mind and even though no mod is perfect, most mods are of higher quality than the base game. And that's fine.

Meanwhile I can't help but feel like you're seriously overstressed. (it's the only reason I can think of to understand why you'd respond the way you do)
I wish you the best :)

 

23 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Indeed, they were 'done' when I uploaded them; I actually used those configs for the development of KSPWheel and all of the initial setup and testing.  Worked as far as I knew, and should still work (minus perhaps a few changes to features).

The problem is -- I don't use stock parts, nor do I feel like taking time to 'balance' the configs for stock parts that I do not use.  Moreover, I have no clue what the intended 'balance' of the stock parts is, as the information that can be extracted from the stock configs is... nonsensical at best (e.g. what is the maximum load (in N / kN) for a stock wheel before it breaks?  Where do you find that value in the stock config?  What is the maximum wheel speed?  Motor Torque?).  The values listed in the stock part configs often don't lineup with what is seen in-game, so trying to base any balance around those numerical values is difficult.

Basically -- they should work, but I don't personally want to support or distribute them, and nobody else has stepped forward offering to pick them up.  (I don't want to distribute them, because I've seen far too many issues and complaints regarding mods 'messing with stock or other mods' parts; so as a rule, I do not touch any parts or values outside of the mod that is being distributed;  Case in point.. I -did- distribute these patches for a brief while, and received numerous complaints regarding the changes to modules in the stock wheels.. not that they were broken, but merely that they were changed).

I'm considering taking them out for a comparison spin since I do use the stock parts but wish they behaved a bit better. You don't sound like you're very interested in it anymore, but I could let you know about the results. (again: if you're interested in that)

Maximum wheel speed by the way is indeed the highest value in the torqueCurve as it's where the wheel no longer produces torque and it corresponds with the ingame listed max speed. No idea with regards to the other values as I never needed to check.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is it still working in 1.7.2? which version should i go for, I got to say from the screenshots i have seen the next textures are amazing but TU can be a real pain and i have tried to use it a number of times each time ending with graphical glitches, lag or ksp just not loading full stop

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1 hour ago, xD-FireStriker said:

Is it still working in 1.7.2? which version should i go for, I got to say from the screenshots i have seen the next textures are amazing but TU can be a real pain and i have tried to use it a number of times each time ending with graphical glitches, lag or ksp just not loading full stop

Pre-Release version available only on github for manual download works in 1.7.2. Not any major issues. Some part have mirror symmetry bug placement in SPH, but that can be workarounded if you plan your craft carefuly. Some legs might have higher default settings for spring/dumper on suspensions, but those can be easy adjusted.
Regarding textures, I have only encountered with minor issue on some part icons in SPH/VAB. Just handful of stock parts and moded parts have missing textures on icons while part itself have proper textures on craft.

I can live with those issues just fine when you look at other benefits that whole mode provide. Can't tell for someone else if mentioned are such big issues that require uninstall of mod or not.

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2 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

Pre-Release version available only on github for manual download works in 1.7.2. Not any major issues. Some part have mirror symmetry bug placement in SPH, but that can be workarounded if you plan your craft carefuly. Some legs might have higher default settings for spring/dumper on suspensions, but those can be easy adjusted.
Regarding textures, I have only encountered with minor issue on some part icons in SPH/VAB. Just handful of stock parts and moded parts have missing textures on icons while part itself have proper textures on craft.

I can live with those issues just fine when you look at other benefits that whole mode provide. Can't tell for someone else if mentioned are such big issues that require uninstall of mod or not.

Well here goes nothing next time i update mods to my save i will be installing the dev version and lets hope DX11 works cause OpenGL gives me the graphics glitches

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5 hours ago, xD-FireStriker said:

Is it still working in 1.7.2? which version should i go for, I got to say from the screenshots i have seen the next textures are amazing but TU can be a real pain and i have tried to use it a number of times each time ending with graphical glitches, lag or ksp just not loading full stop

If you don't like TU, the current version works just fine under 1.7.2 with the old models as well.  Just download the current version and replace all the model-related files with the files from the last pre-TU version.

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On 6/29/2019 at 4:50 AM, xD-FireStriker said:

Well here goes nothing next time i update mods to my save i will be installing the dev version and lets hope DX11 works cause OpenGL gives me the graphics glitches

You can also install the latest TU from here:   (  )   Notably, it no longer 'requires' DX11 or OpenGL.  Still looks just as bad under DX9 as it ever did (those are problems with DX9, and not TU), but it will let you use the old API without popping up the  warning during startup.

Now, if you actually want to _use_ TU and get the most out of it as far as the graphics it can offer, then yes, you have to use either DX11 or OpenGL-Core.


 

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21 hours ago, Masoneus said:

Is there a plan to 1.7+ this mod?

Should work as-is.  The old plugin should still work with modern KSP versions.

Future updates are pending some decisions on the direction to take the artwork, and then time to act on those decisions.

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On 7/2/2019 at 6:18 AM, Shadowmage said:

You can also install the latest TU from here:   (  )   Notably, it no longer 'requires' DX11 or OpenGL.  Still looks just as bad under DX9 as it ever did (those are problems with DX9, and not TU), but it will let you use the old API without popping up the  warning during startup.

Now, if you actually want to _use_ TU and get the most out of it as far as the graphics it can offer, then yes, you have to use either DX11 or OpenGL-Core.


 

which would you recommend OpenGL or DX11

On 7/9/2019 at 12:12 AM, Shadowmage said:

Should work as-is.  The old plugin should still work with modern KSP versions.

Future updates are pending some decisions on the direction to take the artwork, and then time to act on those decisions.

If its anything i am liking the new textures, i cant tell whats different but you have already done all this work and TU is working without shouting at people out of the box. at first i was dreading a future with the new textures but now i have made the switch i want to see the future of this mod down this path

Edited by xD-FireStriker
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9 hours ago, xD-FireStriker said:

which would you recommend OpenGL or DX11

Either works fine for me, I don't really notice much of a difference between the two.  As long as its not DX9...

I think DX11 might have slightly higher framerates, but it is hard to tell with KSP being CPU bound most of the time.

Now, I should also mention that stock KSP has issues regardless of OpenGL or DX11 -- the stock shaders have issues with part-icons; issues that SQUAD refuses to fix (they simply respond with 'we don't support those APIs, so not fixing it, sorry').

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9 hours ago, xD-FireStriker said:

which would you recommend OpenGL or DX11

That highly depend on hardware and OS that you are using. Some people have better experience with DX11 while OpenGL works better for others.
If you are using Windows then try with DX11 first. Only if that does not work properly on Windows or if you are using Linux or Mac, then you may want to use OpenGL.

It is very hard to tell general rule which one works better for each machine around globe.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Heads up regarding future update plans:

Kerbal Foundries has been in a bit of a development hold for the last few months, pending decisions on the direction of texturing and the updated models.  Well, decisions have been made, and the plans for the near/immediate future (at least the next couple of updates) are the following:

  • Future releases will use the PBR texturing by default.  Stock now includes PBR shaders and reflection probes, so it is not too far out-of place.
  • The new/changed part-names will be staying in place.  As this will impact existing saves when upgrading, I will write up a guide on how to best upgrade an in-progress game to the new version.
    • Most of the old parts should continue to load fine, and this will likely be the method for upgrading in-place;  install the new version, and then copy in any parts from the old version that are needed.
    • Part-names have been made consistent and logical, so no further changes should be needed.  Likewise with texture and config names.
  • I will be creating 'recoloring' texture set configurations for the Kerbal Foundries parts, and by default each part will have a standard PBR texture set as well as a recolorable texture set.
    • Recoloring will allow for the setup and use of visuals mostly equivalent to legacy shading (e.g. no chrome), but will still be using global-illumination for better visuals.
  • Balance -- I still intend on finishing the WIP balance pass over all parts, setting their initial balance to be something close to the most equivalent stock part.
    • As always, feedback on balance is appreciated.
  • I still intend on creating a 'legacy' texture-set pack, baked from the original models and textures onto the new ones, where appropriate and possible (not all models will allow for direct transference).  This will come at some point in the future after the rest of the update has been completed.
  • I still have a few new models that were WIP, and would like to finish them off and get them usable and released.  New landing legs, new ALG parts, and new landing skids (gotta have something for those helicopters to land on).

Currently working through a pretty large update to TexturesUnlimited, which is nearly complete.  I then have a few items to clean up in SSTU in regards to bugfixes and mod integration (RealFuels, Kerablism), and then should have sufficient time and resources to dedicate to a good cleanup pass of KF.

 

 

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Just now, Horus said:

I guess I'll have to wait till then as my laptop does not properly support TU.

I should probably note that TU now 'works fine' with DX9, so if you can run KSP, you should be able to run TU.  ('works fine' as in, it now uses the Stock reflection system; DX9 is still rife with issues compared to DX11/OpenGL-Core).  At this point there is nothing in TU that would require any sort of special hardware support beyond what is required for stock, as it is in fact using the stock systems.

I should also note that the 'legacy texture' support will still require TU for the texture switching; that requirement/dependency is not going away.

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Is there a known bug with a mirrored or left hand side track (specifically the large track with 7 roadwheels) not receiving any torque until super late, and only ramping up slowly and to less than half of the torque of the Right hand side/nonmirrored track?

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On 6/18/2019 at 4:08 PM, Shadowmage said:

Uninstall the mod.  No more dark icons!

(or roll back to a previous version).

(yes, I'm sick of people complaining about all of the hard-work I put into it; which is why I'm likely moving on from KSP in the very near future)

Man... sorry to hear. For what it's worth, I much appreciate your stuff! Most people really do not realize how much work some of these mods take! 

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On 8/3/2019 at 5:01 AM, /not/pol/ said:

Is there a known bug with a mirrored or left hand side track (specifically the large track with 7 roadwheels) not receiving any torque until super late, and only ramping up slowly and to less than half of the torque of the Right hand side/nonmirrored track?

I have not previously heard of any such issue, so you would be the first to report it.  Could you provide a sample .craft file that exhibits the problem (preferably one with only stock + Kerbal Foundries parts on it)?

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1 minute ago, Shadowmage said:

I have not previously heard of any such issue, so you would be the first to report it.  Could you provide a sample .craft file that exhibits the problem (preferably one with only stock + Kerbal Foundries parts on it)?

it seems to occur only after ejecting the command pod on a vehicle controlled with a command seat. The hull of the vehicle is made using Ubiozur Weldments and armor parts from BDAc so  i can post it, but it will require custom files.

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Just now, /not/pol/ said:

The hull of the vehicle is made using Ubiozur Weldments

The wheels didn't get welded into the hull by chance?  That would certainly mess with things.  The wheels -can- be used in 'welded' parts, but require much manual editing of the configs to get it all working, on a part-by-part basis.

2 minutes ago, /not/pol/ said:

so  i can post it, but it will require custom files.

I really need a stock + KF only craft that exhibits the problem, if for no other reason than to eliminate potential mod conflicts.  If the issue does not occur with 'standard' built craft, then the problem is likely due to unforseen / un-handled mod interactions.

Do those same parts have issues when you use them in other craft designs?

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Just now, Shadowmage said:

The wheels didn't get welded into the hull by chance?  That would certainly mess with things.  The wheels -can- be used in 'welded' parts, but require much manual editing of the configs to get it all working, on a part-by-part basis.

I really need a stock + KF only craft that exhibits the problem, if for no other reason than to eliminate potential mod conflicts.  If the issue does not occur with 'standard' built craft, then the problem is likely due to unforseen / un-handled mod interactions.

Do those same parts have issues when you use them in other craft designs?

Parts are not welded onto the hull, I added each track on each side and moved them to be centered with each other. I've not tested them in other crafts. but its a somewhat recurring issue i cant seem to pin down the cause of for this vehicle, even before i switched to a weldment hull. On 1.7.3 if its of any note.

Edited by /not/pol/
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Just now, /not/pol/ said:

I added each track on each side and moved them to be centered with each other.

Did you set the motor reverse settings appropriately for each side?

By default when using symmetry the motor for one side will be automatically inverted.  If placed separately (not using symmetry), they will both use the same motor direction (which is relative to the part), and one of the sets of wheels will be spinning backwards.  Generally though this should be much more visible when driving, as you would just spin in place.

Just trying to eliminate the simple/obvious before getting into more in-depth diagnostics.

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