[1.8.x] Kerbal Foundries -- Continued - Tracks, Wheels, and Gear

[Azic Minar]

On 2/12/2020 at 6:29 PM, vardicd said:

yeah I accounted for the kerbals position and weight, one center seat if only one kerbal, a pair of seats if 2 kerbals.

the fixed craft file does indeed drive much better, and doesn't pull to one side. it is oddly reversed, so when i try and go forward, it drives backwards, but I can flip the seats around and put a small rover control point on the back of the rover body to drive it 'correctly' if unmanned, so no worries. thanks for the help!

One set of tracks will always have reversed selected automatically when placed symmetrically. Just make sure they all get flipped and you won't have to change chair positions. Its a little different from other mods to remember to turn it on when placing wheels outside of symmetry mode, but for using the best wheels out there, its totally worth learning.

Edit for clarity: Booted up the game to check motor inversion. If the front of your craft faces the open door of the SPH, the ones on the right should be inverted and the ones on the left should be normal.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Azic Minar
Clarity

[JadeOfMaar]

@Shadowmage Hey there. I just installed this mod for KSP 1.8.1 and I'm enjoying the visible changes you've made but I quickly realized that the ALG (perhaps most other wheels, though not the legs) all have their max loads weakened, making them more fragile. I do hope this is a very accidental accident. I'm going to have to write a config now to bandage that.

Edited February 17, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[Rodger]

16 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Shadowmage Hey there. I just installed this mod for KSP 1.8.1 and I'm enjoying the visible changes you've made but I quickly realized that the ALG (perhaps most other wheels, though not the legs) all have their max loads weakened, making them more fragile. I do hope this is a very accidental accident. I'm going to have to write a config now to bandage that.

I had that problem on downscaled gear, if you were tweaking the sizes down that will make them a lot weaker.

[JadeOfMaar]

2 hours ago, Rodger said:

I had that problem on downscaled gear, if you were tweaking the sizes down that will make them a lot weaker.

I haven't resized them in any manner. Just mousing over the thumbnail in part selection I see the lower "Max Load" values. And this was after I noticed that wheel stress was suddenly higher on them on my small Mk2 plane.

The plane weighs 20 tons and the medium wheels broke off when I retracted them.......???

[vardicd]

57 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I haven't resized them in any manner. Just mousing over the thumbnail in part selection I see the lower "Max Load" values. And this was after I noticed that wheel stress was suddenly higher on them on my small Mk2 plane.

The plane weighs 20 tons and the medium wheels broke off when I retracted them.......???

I wasn't able to reproduce the fragility you're encountering, though perhaps i misunderstand your situation. I made a fast and dirty copy of your craft with a full tank of ore to make it heavier than yours and loaded a 40 ton plane with only 3 medium KF wheels and it was able to support the weight, launch and land, no problems. feel free to share your craft file, if you'd like, so i can see what exactly you've got going on, or perhaps more detailed steps to reproduce your falling apart behavior, and i'll gladly help test.

Spoiler

 

 

 

[JadeOfMaar]

@vardicd In KSP 1.7 (I still use that to test stuff), the wheel stress gauge on the medium wheels/main gear was only about 0.2 each but now, in 1.8, their stress is at least double that, proven in your screenshots. My CoM was also very near those main wheels while yours looks to be centered between them and the nose wheel, and (possibly the killer) I attached those wheels to the wings and not to the center fuselage...forgetting that wings' attach strength is really weak.

[vardicd]

48 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@vardicd In KSP 1.7 (I still use that to test stuff), the wheel stress gauge on the medium wheels/main gear was only about 0.2 each but now, in 1.8, their stress is at least double that, proven in your screenshots. My CoM was also very near those main wheels while yours looks to be centered between them and the nose wheel, and (possibly the killer) I attached those wheels to the wings and not to the center fuselage...forgetting that wings' attach strength is really weak.

Oh yeah, supporting weight on wings is always a dangerous idea. sometimes it works, sometimes you end up with unplanned disassembly. 

[Azic Minar]

20 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Shadowmage Hey there. I just installed this mod for KSP 1.8.1 and I'm enjoying the visible changes you've made but I quickly realized that the ALG (perhaps most other wheels, though not the legs) all have their max loads weakened, making them more fragile. I do hope this is a very accidental accident. I'm going to have to write a config now to bandage that.

How do you write a config to do that? I had noticed before that the wheels were a bit weak and broke. The biggest treads on a barely 10 ton rover

[JadeOfMaar]

1 hour ago, Azic Minar said:

How do you write a config to do that? I had noticed before that the wheels were a bit weak and broke. The biggest treads on a barely 10 ton rover

OPT Reconfig has a buff for them already but now I must adjust that buff. Here's what I had for just the airplane wheels:

@PART[KF-ALG-Large|KF-ALG-Medium]:NEEDS[KerbalFoundries]
{
	@description ^= :$: Load and heat limits raised by OPT Aerospace Division. // append, not replace
	@maxTemp = 2650
	@MODULE[KSPWheelBase]
	{
		@loadRating *= 3 // multiply existing value
		@maxLoadRating *= 3
	}
	@MODULE[KSPWheelMotor] // In case anyone wants to easily buff this
	{
		@maxMotorTorque *= 1
	}
}
@PART[KF-ALG-Small|KF-ALG-SmallSide]:NEEDS[KerbalFoundries]
{
	@description ^= :$: Load and heat limits raised by OPT Aerospace Division. // append, not replace
	@maxTemp = 2650
	@MODULE[KSPWheelBase]
	{
		@loadRating *= 3
		@maxLoadRating *= 3
	}
	@MODULE[KSPWheelMotor] // In case anyone wants to easily buff this
	{
		@maxMotorTorque *= 1
	}
}

 

[Shadowmage]

On 2/17/2020 at 5:04 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

OPT Reconfig has a buff for them already but now I must adjust that buff. Here's what I had for just the airplane wheels:

@PART[KF-ALG-Large|KF-ALG-Medium]:NEEDS[KerbalFoundries]
{
	@description ^= :$: Load and heat limits raised by OPT Aerospace Division. // append, not replace
	@maxTemp = 2650
	@MODULE[KSPWheelBase]
	{
		@loadRating *= 3 // multiply existing value
		@maxLoadRating *= 3
	}
	@MODULE[KSPWheelMotor] // In case anyone wants to easily buff this
	{
		@maxMotorTorque *= 1
	}
}
@PART[KF-ALG-Small|KF-ALG-SmallSide]:NEEDS[KerbalFoundries]
{
	@description ^= :$: Load and heat limits raised by OPT Aerospace Division. // append, not replace
	@maxTemp = 2650
	@MODULE[KSPWheelBase]
	{
		@loadRating *= 3
		@maxLoadRating *= 3
	}
	@MODULE[KSPWheelMotor] // In case anyone wants to easily buff this
	{
		@maxMotorTorque *= 1
	}
}

 

While I appreciate what you are trying to do with that patch, all it will ever accomplish is to relatively adjust the existing balance, rather than specify it.  Better would be to specify an exact value for each, so you know exactly what you are changing.  As a bonus, you won't have to adjust your patch if the balance in the base mod changes; your patch will specify exactly what you want for your personal balance.

 

In the long run, and far more useful to everyone, would be suggestions on how much each part should support at its default scale? 

I've tried asking for this feedback a few times in the past, but nobody seemed interested in providing a comprehensive set of values.  Lots of suggestions on one or two parts, but I cannot balance one or two parts in isolation.

 

On 2/16/2020 at 6:49 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

Hey there. I just installed this mod for KSP 1.8.1 and I'm enjoying the visible changes you've made but I quickly realized that the ALG (perhaps most other wheels, though not the legs) all have their max loads weakened, making them more fragile. I do hope this is a very accidental accident. I'm going to have to write a config now to bandage that.

TLDR:  I don't remember making any specific balance changes, especially to those parts, but if you are unhappy with the current balance, feel free to make suggestions.

In fact, I can do one better than relying on memory....  Github keeps a log of changes to these files, and the last change to any of the ALG configs was Feb 25th, 2017.  So no, there were no balance changes to these part configs, intentional or otherwise.  ( https://github.com/shadowmage45/KerbalFoundries2/commits/master/GameData/KerbalFoundries/Parts/ALG-Small.cfg )  Are you sure you hadn't previously patched these, and didn't migrate your patch to the new install?

[JadeOfMaar]

Hey @Shadowmage. I'm aware that my patch does "relative" business while it should be absolute. At the time I was confident no other mod would patch the load strength of the wheels so I kept my config short and used multipliers.

Oh dear. My patch, in OPT Reconfig, was present at the time in that 1.7 install, and it's still there. I forgot it was there due to dev work that didn't need the OPT parts themselves to be present. I'll make some time and gather new load values to suggest to you. I'm surprised then that in truly all the time KF was around, nobody approached you about this and offered some.

[JadeOfMaar]

I had some fun and re-titled this into a table leg. I mean, it's appropriate, given its looks and how you should use it. And in kerbal fashion it needs to be funny somewhere.

Looks like the first picture won't zoom if clicked but the second one will zoom.

The overlay colors and group names are not a mod. It's Photoshop and just to make a point.

Test configs download

Whoever's interested, come and try this out. This temporary download contains just the config files and a changelog. I would really like to have some feedback on it so I can PR it to @Shadowmage.

The antigravity engines don't seem to respect the load rating so I put an arbitrary higher value.

Edited February 20, 2020 by JadeOfMaar
The overlay colors and group names are not a mod.

[Shadowmage]

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The antigravity engines don't seem to respect the load rating so I put an arbitrary higher value.

IIRC, they don't utilize the load-rating, because they don't have a KSPWheelDamage part-module (which was intended to simulate physical breakage scenarios, from over-stressing of suspension components).

As these don't have traditional suspension mechanics, there is nothing to break.  Rather, they'll continue to draw ever-increasing amounts of power with larger loads and stresses, until eventually, you simply can't supply enough power fast enough (for some designs anyway); they'll then shut-down from power-loss, and the craft will hit the ground shortly after.

I've never quite known what to do with those parts.  They aren't wheels, treads, landing gear, or landing legs of the traditional mechanical variety.  Working purely in the land of unicorns and pixie dust... who knows what a 'realistic' failure state for them might be?  Can such a thing even be stated (e.g. the 'realistic' portion of it)?

Could possibly come up with a specialized damage module/functionality that is more in-line with their far-future sci-fi setting and operation; e.g. they put out ever-increasing amounts of heat, or have a specific limitation of power output for specific sizes of part, which if exceeded will 'overload' the 'emitters' or whatever.  IDK, hard to balance sci-fi stuff against stuff that is based in real physics.

[vardicd]

2 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

 

How do i get color coded parts in my editor?

@Shadowmage I noticed the small ALG landing gear has toggle options for steering, but don't actually seem capable of steering. Is this another case of me doing something wrong, or a glitch with the part.

[JadeOfMaar]

@vardicd That's just photoshop, for illustration of the parts being grouped by their titles. It would indeed be nice if there was a mod for that.

@Shadowmage I didn't think of all that, actually. I only considered having the anti-grav engines just... not show the load ratings. Personal experience tells me they should be limited to supporting as much weight as allowed by the Max Load parameter. I once built a carrier ship and its shuttle using this engine and so, on a few occasions I've had the unfortunate issues of: When I dock the shuttle upward into its carrier and the carrier's engines are off (and it's landed in high gee like on Kerbin), the shuttle's engines will tear themselves off in attempt to support the combined ship mass.

Perhaps the anti-grav engines can have a slider or numeric input for the max tonnage they should allow themselves to support, and shut themselves off if they exceed it? That's my most basic suggestion while I know several factors are in play that make it complicated to determine and apply this limit: the thruster power levels, the rescale module possibly scaling their power throughput, and dividing the mass load between every engine in the same wheel group. The wheel goup feature is extremely convenient by the way, and would make it easy to control when an engine is allowed to operate.

 

[vardicd]

Just now, JadeOfMaar said:

@vardicd That's just photoshop, for illustration of the parts being grouped by their titles. It would indeed be nice if there was a mod for that

Well, that's just disappointing. 

[Rodger]

2 hours ago, vardicd said:

 

@Shadowmage I noticed the small ALG landing gear has toggle options for steering, but don't actually seem capable of steering. Is this another case of me doing something wrong, or a glitch with the part.

It can definitely steer, maybe check steering response is non-zero, or have you remapped driving keys? I've remapped my driving keys to arrow keys and forgotten about it before, and wondered why they weren't working lol

[vardicd]

3 hours ago, Rodger said:

It can definitely steer, maybe check steering response is non-zero, or have you remapped driving keys? I've remapped my driving keys to arrow keys and forgotten about it before, and wondered why they weren't working lol

Remembers he remapped steering keys to drive Mun Rover. Feels like an idiot. 

[Shadowmage]

13 hours ago, vardicd said:

I noticed the small ALG landing gear has toggle options for steering, but don't actually seem capable of steering. Is this another case of me doing something wrong, or a glitch with the part.

Something else of note -- the ALG parts will only steer when their main strut is straight, as the models only accommodate steering when in that specific orientation.

[Stone Blue]

13 hours ago, vardicd said:

How do i get color coded parts in my editor?

Heh... @JadeOfMaar got me good with that (and the category titles), when I first saw that

[DStaal]

11 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Perhaps the anti-grav engines can have a slider or numeric input for the max tonnage they should allow themselves to support, and shut themselves off if they exceed it? That's my most basic suggestion while I know several factors are in play that make it complicated to determine and apply this limit: the thruster power levels, the rescale module possibly scaling their power throughput, and dividing the mass load between every engine in the same wheel group. The wheel goup feature is extremely convenient by the way, and would make it easy to control when an engine is allowed to operate.

Honestly, once we're talking about energy drives and such, I'd argue that the most likely limiter is heat dissipation: The drive circuits would heat up when in use, and the more power you run through them the hotter they'd get.  At some point you wouldn't be able to get the heat back out of them and they'd melt down.

[Shadowmage]

12 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

That's just photoshop, for illustration of the parts being grouped by their titles. It would indeed be nice if there was a mod for that.

Hmm... there could be    I've been poking at the back-end code for the editor parts-list, and fairly certain someone could come up with a mod to color-code the background color of the tiles.  Perhaps if I get bored....

 

12 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I didn't think of all that, actually. I only considered having the anti-grav engines just... not show the load ratings. Personal experience tells me they should be limited to supporting as much weight as allowed by the Max Load parameter.

Certainly some viable feedback there.  If it doesn't use max-load rating, it shouldn't show it.  Have opened an issue ticket, and will attempt to have that change made for the next release - https://github.com/shadowmage45/KSPWheel/issues/72

12 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Perhaps the anti-grav engines can have a slider or numeric input for the max tonnage they should allow themselves to support, and shut themselves off if they exceed it?

Possibly.  The range of the slider would certainly have to be limited by the current part-size (as super-tiny engines shouldn't have the same max possible as larger engines), but I'm really thinking a 'heat' based mechanic would work well for damage on these.

Something like:

• Max thrust/load/output output determined by part-size (and based on config value)
• Any thrust output generates heat, with heat load increasing with output (use part core-heat mechanics)
• Part-temp decreases efficiency of the emitters.  At max temp they output close to nothing.
• If a sustained high temp is seen for a duration, parts may break due to 'melting' of internal components
  • It should be possible to induce this failure state in 'normal operation' of a poorly designed craft
  • E.G. 'too hot' might be only 70% of 'theoretical max heat' (where thrust output is zero)
  • If it is in the 'too hot' range for too long, it breaks
• Best operation is when the parts are kept in the nominal range; above or below reduces efficiency
• Can use stock radiators to manage temps / uses stock heat mechanics

This should provide some interesting mechanics, where the design factors include trying to keep the loading even across the devices/ensuring proper scaling for the load, ensuring that they are loaded within their nominal range, and ensuring that there is sufficient cooling for the heat output for the load.  The heat mechanics should allow for temporary over-loading without damage, sustained marginally overloading (with sufficient cooling), and could add a bit of depth to the design consideration for use of these parts.

Now, this is all speculative / material for discussion at this point.  Before I would consider beginning any implementation, would need to have all of the details laid out and a clear idea on how it will work, what complexities will be involved, and most importantly I would need the free time to actually work on it.  Probably not in the immediate future, but I will keep it in mind for sometime in the coming weeks/months.

1 minute ago, DStaal said:

Honestly, once we're talking about energy drives and such, I'd argue that the most likely limiter is heat dissipation: The drive circuits would heat up when in use, and the more power you run through them the hotter they'd get.  At some point you wouldn't be able to get the heat back out of them and they'd melt down.

Hehe, was just writing exactly that.  Heat seems like the perfect mechanic for these parts.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Shadowmage

[Stone Blue]

8 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Hehe, was just writing exactly that.  Heat seems like the perfect mechanic for these parts.

I know it would be moar work for you, but mebbe have KF have its *own* litttle super-radiator part for heat disspiation? vOv
they *are* sci-fi parts and already have techno-magic, so it wouldnt seem unrealistic to have a small part able to dissipate/manage heat waste? vOv

8 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

Hmm... there could be    I've been poking at the back-end code for the editor parts-list, and fairly certain someone could come up with a mod to color-code the background color of the tiles.  Perhaps if I get bored....

I know *I* for one would appreciate this... especially if it was user configurable for different mods/catagories (which I am sure you would plan on?)

Edited February 20, 2020 by Stone Blue

[adsii1970]

11 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

I know it would be moar work for you, but mebbe have KF have its *own* litttle super-radiator part for heat disspiation? vOv
they *are* sci-fi parts and already have techno-magic, so it wouldnt seem unrealistic to have a small part able to dissipate/manage heat waste? vOv

Or maybe have the small part have the ability to convert the heat into electrical charge. This way, not all the heat is simply vented but has a practical purpose.

[JadeOfMaar]

13 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

I know it would be moar work for you, but mebbe have KF have its *own* litttle super-radiator part for heat disspiation? vOv

A couple of KSP players are fans of the concept of stage-able radiators as seen in Elite: Dangerous. And Thor Tech (one of my oldest mods, and one I'm no longer very proud of) provides two exceptional means for managing extreme heat... Not including stage-able radiators.

2 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Or maybe have the small part have the ability to convert the heat into electrical charge. This way, not all the heat is simply vented but has a practical purpose.

Thanks for the motivation to return to Thor Tech. I can do this easily...And I want to.

I'm well-versed in Core Heat now, enough to produce documentation for how to precisely tune it for a given converter and I can even use Core Heat just to spool the converter and cease to produce internal heat (never need a radiator) when it reaches its core temperature goal. This is amusing and somewhat appropriate for any power source that relies on revving up internal spinning parts such as turbine APUs.