Endgame Content

[jjansen]

KSP is commonly understood to be a "Sandbox" game. This was true until the Science and Career modes were implemented; because of the tech tree, those modes make KSP "Open World", which can be understood as a "Sandbox" game with a goal. The goal in the case of KSP is simply to fill-out the tech tree.

 

Unfortunately, for players such as myself who enjoy goals, after the tech tree is complete, the game is effectively over. Radiant quests, such as the contracts, are a means to an end and are fundamentally the same from when Career mode begins.

 

Therefore I suggest that more focus be given to post-tech-tree Career and Science game content, to maintain the interest the game generates.

 

One idea I had was unlocking new models or skins for parts based on where those parts have been in the Kerbin system. A landing leg that made it to a certain biome on Duna, for example, might be "improved" by engineers to better suit dusty environments, resulting in an unlocked model for construction. The base function and form would be the same, but it'd look different and perhaps even have better traction on biomes considered "dusty".

 

Another idea would be to consider NASA's current major long-term objective, that being Martian explorers and eventually colonies. Bigger rewards for colonies (not just funds from contracts, but new equipment) after the tech tree is complete would help drive extended play.

 

Whatever the case, the bottom line is this: endgame content requires concrete goals and explicit rewards. KSP deserves a robust and expansive endgame.

[Tyko]

there's a mod for that...  

 

 

[KSK]

The problem with endgame content is that players motor through it and then demand more endgame content. I speak as a former WoW player. Not saying that's not a reason to do it but it would put Squad onto an endless content treadmill which they may not want to or be able to deliver.

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by KSK

[jjansen]

2 minutes ago, Tyko said:

there's a mod for that...  

It's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure it really qualifies as a goal/reward system, and it kinda feels like cheating.

 

 

[Tyko]

1 minute ago, jjansen said:

It's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure it really qualifies as a goal/reward system, and it kinda feels like cheating.

Up to you, but it does give you a way to improve parts using surplus science points...this was at least part of your ask above. As far as Goals...it there are still goals to complete, then you're not at the "end of the game" yet.

Another option that I use is just to lower my science rewards so that I'm not completing the tree so early...

[regex]

7 minutes ago, KSK said:

The problem with endgame content is that players motor through it and then demand more endgame content. I speak as a former WoW player. Not saying that's not a reason to do it but it would put Squad onto an endless content treadmill which they may not want to or be able to deliver.

This. I mean, you're basically just asking for an extended tech tree with more parts, eventually that's going to be just as old as the current stuff.

[jjansen]

3 minutes ago, KSK said:

The problem with endgame content is that players motor through it and then demand more endgame content. I speak as a former WoW player. Not saying that's not a reason to do it but it would put Squad onto an endless content treadmill which they may not want to or be able to deliver.

 

My interest in this game is sawtooth: Starts high after a new patch, tapers off to 0 when I end the tech tree. Endgame content would raise that minimum for me.

 

While it's unlikely that endgame content would attract a significant new contingent of players, it would keep those of us with intermittent attention playing more often, and I think that could be valuable to Squad.

[jjansen]

1 minute ago, Tyko said:

Up to you, but it does give you a way to improve parts using surplus science points...this was at least part of your ask above. As far as Goals...it there are still goals to complete, then you're not at the "end of the game" yet.

Another option that I use is just to lower my science rewards so that I'm not completing the tree so early...

Endgame content implies the part of the game that takes place after the grinding is done. Kind of a VIP section of play, if you will. The grind, in KSP, is the tech tree. Unlockables after that would encourage long-ranging exploration, which is what I want incentivized. (And I didn't really ask about surplus science. Not sure how you got that from what I wrote.)

 

2 minutes ago, regex said:

This. I mean, you're basically just asking for an extended tech tree with more parts, eventually that's going to be just as old as the current stuff.

I am asking for more parts, this is true. I am not, however, asking for an expanded tech tree. The tree should still exist because it's a good, basic way to introduce all the parts, but when it's finished, I think a new means of developing parts wouldn't only be more fun, but would also make good sense. Special contract rewards just seem like a logical next step; you do something in the field and realize better ways to do it as you do, like spacewalks during the Gemini mission.

 

I think biome-specific unlocks would be a boon because Squad really has no good reason to add multiple models and skins for each part, and an exploration wall could provide that.

[Kerbart]

33 minutes ago, jjansen said:

Therefore I suggest that more focus be given to post-tech-tree Career and Science game content, to maintain the interest the game generates.

Anything that goes beyond Mun/Minmus is pretty much endgame content in my book. If you consider "something else than contracts," then what would that be? Extending the tech tree would simply put it before endgame, by definition.

[jjansen]

3 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Anything that goes beyond Mun/Minmus is pretty much endgame content in my book. If you consider "something else than contracts," then what would that be? Extending the tech tree would simply put it before endgame, by definition.

I didn't suggest expanding the tech tree (but find it interesting that you're the second person to assume I did), though in order for this to work you need goals and rewards and thus more parts.

I want goals after completing the tech tree, like special contracts that, through field testing, reward improved parts, like habitat modules, and biome-specific unlocks that improve certain aspects of equipment and change their appearance.

Edited January 20, 2017 by jjansen

[Kerbart]

2 minutes ago, jjansen said:

I didn't suggest expanding the tech tree (but find it interesting that you're the second person to assume I did), though in order for this to work you need goals and rewards and thus more parts.

I want goals after completing the tech tree, like special contracts that, through field testing, reward improved parts, like habitat modules, and biome-specific unlocks that improve certain aspects of equipment and change their appearance.

Aaah, my bad. Upgrading parts is an interesting option. You could tie it to a part return mission. Retrieve an Octoprobe "from unknown origins" from Laythe and after research the design improvements are applied to your inventory.

As KSK and Regex pointed out though, that will be seen as "the regular game" after a while.  One could see the very definition of "endgame" as "when the game reaches sandbox mode" making the problem hard to solve

[KSK]

1 hour ago, jjansen said:

While it's unlikely that endgame content would attract a significant new contingent of players, it would keep those of us with intermittent attention playing more often, and I think that could be valuable to Squad.

If KSP was a free-to-play or a subscription game you'd be right. Squad would want to keep you playing and keep you paying. Fortunately (in my opinion) KSP is an old school, buy once, play forever game, or it has been up till now. Therefore, the only real advantage I can see to attracting those 'sawtooth' type players to play more is the hope that they'd contribute more to the community - which has always been a big part of KSP. Or possibly that you'd be more inclined to buy any expansion packs that Squad release.

Both of which are important considerations but they're also pretty hard to quantify. I'd argue that from a purely financial perspective, Squad doesn't care all that much about how often you play and is unlikely to use that as a data point when deciding whether to do endgame content. 

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I'd expect any other company to take a similar attitude. I'm not singling out or vilifying Squad.

[jjansen]

2 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Aaah, my bad. Upgrading parts is an interesting option. You could tie it to a part return mission. Retrieve an Octoprobe "from unknown origins" from Laythe and after research the design improvements are applied to your inventory.

As KSK and Regex pointed out though, that will be seen as "the regular game" after a while.  One could see the very definition of "endgame" as "when the game reaches sandbox mode" making the problem hard to solve

Thanks! The part collection missions could be fun, but I think it might go too into "No Kerbal's Sky" territory, where everywhere you go is already explored. (I tend to ignore the long-range rescue and recovery contracts because that's the only evidence I have of rival space programs.)

The two ideas are just what I came up with in the past 3 or so hours. Can't be that hard to develop more.

I think we're not seeing endgame content maybe just because Squad doesn't realize that they've made an open world game with a goal. We should encourage them to expand on this game type.

Even the most expansive MMOs get tired at the top tier, true, and it's hard to justify legendary item drops in a game like KSP.

Legendary crew drops might be interesting.

Just now, KSK said:

If KSP was a free-to-play or a subscription game you'd be right. Squad would want to keep you playing and keep you paying. Fortunately (in my opinion) KSP is an old school, buy once, play forever game, or it has been up till now. Therefore, the only real advantage I can see to attracting those 'sawtooth' type players to play more is the hope that they'd contribute more to the community - which has always been a big part of KSP. Or possibly that you'd be more inclined to buy any expansion packs that Squad release.

Both of which are important considerations but they're also pretty hard to quantify. I'd argue that from a purely financial perspective, Squad doesn't care all that much about how often you play and is unlikely to use that as a data point when deciding whether to do endgame content. 

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I'd expect any other company to take a similar attitude. I'm not singling out or vilifying Squad.

Word-of-mouth is certainly how everyone I know got into playing KSP. Maintaining interest in the deep game would expand that, but you're right in that we really have no idea how much it would.

 

Still, Squad keeps generating KSP content, and endgame content constitutes a form of content.

[regex]

Endgame content in KSP, in terms of a "open world" or "sandbox" game, consists of whatever goals you want to impose on it yourself. This is the same as other games in those sorts of genres, Minecraft and Skyrim come to mind for me. At some point you run out of regular "content" and must make it yourself (self-set goals, mods, etc...), or move on to another game with entirely different content. That's how these things work.

Squad could certainly release DLC for additional content, considering how eminently moddable KSP is, but the modding community has already filled many of the gaps that a DLC would attempt to enter, so whether those are profitable remains to be seen.

[jjansen]

1 minute ago, regex said:

Endgame content in KSP, in terms of a "open world" or "sandbox" game, consists of whatever goals you want to impose on it yourself. This is the same as other games in those sorts of genres, Minecraft and Skyrim come to mind for me. At some point you run out of regular "content" and must make it yourself (self-set goals, mods, etc...), or move on to another game with entirely different content. That's how these things work.

Squad could certainly release DLC for additional content, considering how eminently moddable KSP is, but the modding community has already filled many of the gaps that a DLC would attempt to enter, so whether those are profitable remains to be seen.

Goals require rewards, that's how endgame content works. Do things, then get things. That's what I want, that's what I suggested, that's what I'm looking for.

 

Setting your own goals does not result in rewards and are in fact less rewarding than contracts.

[regex]

Just now, jjansen said:

Setting your own goals does not result in rewards

And that mindset is exactly why you should be looking for mods or other games to fill that void. If you are not rewarded by completing goals that you have set yourself then you should probably be looking for a new game to play. And that's okay, sandbox games aren't for everyone, nor should we expect them to cater to everyone.

[jjansen]

Just now, regex said:

And that mindset is exactly why you should be looking for mods or other games to fill that void. If you are not rewarded by completing goals that you have set yourself then you should probably be looking for a new game to play. And that's okay, sandbox games aren't for everyone, nor should we expect them to cater to everyone.

As I said in my OP, this is not a sandbox game, not anymore. Genie's out of the bottle.

[regex]

8 minutes ago, jjansen said:

As I said in my OP, this is not a sandbox game, not anymore. Genie's out of the bottle.

KSP remains a sandbox game and career mode's implementation is proof of that. There are many ways to go about playing a career game, and it is even entirely possible to play without touching the artificial goals (contracts). in fact, you can safely stay in Kerbin SOI, only visiting the Mun and Minmus, and complete the tech tree. With high enough rewards you could even stay on Kerbin itself and "finish" the game (AFAIK, not sure if the sliders are that limited). The fact that the game doesn't end when you complete the tech tree and is effectively open is a big indicator that career mode was intended to be an extension of a sandbox experience.

Edited January 20, 2017 by regex

[Noname117]

Honestly maybe the science in the game should mean more. Kerbal could partially solve its issue if it provided more stuff further out to explore and if there was more to discover in regards to the science. A good goal to the game would be to understand the solar system and its formation, and that goal would last far beyond the tech tree (especially if they added an outer solar system).

Yes, eventually this content would dry up, but it would take longer to do so and probably give the player more reason to go to other planets (I haven't really done so because there's really nothing to see or do there).

Or maybe a tougher more realistic contract system and tech tree would extend the game out a bit

[Slam_Jones]

14 minutes ago, jjansen said:

As I said in my OP, this is not a sandbox game, not anymore. Genie's out of the bottle.

You can argue semantics all you want, but in the end, KSP is the type of game where one must often set their own goals, and the rewards of said goals are the satisfaction of completing it.  IMO, Career and Science modes are just ways to introduce parts of the sandbox in digestible chunks, rather than all at once.

Does KSP need endgame content?  IMO, no.  There are plenty of mods to provide greater challenge if that is what you seek.  Additional planets, solar systems, parts, technologies, are all within your grasp via the modding community.  Tech Tree too easy to fill out?  Yep. you bet there are mods for that.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Slam_Jones

[Noname117]

The issue is I feel KSP is limiting itself by being a sandbox game. Giving the game more of a point would increase its longevity.

As it stands I'm quite bored of KSP because it doesn't give me any of the problems of a real space program, and there isn't a game which does while allowing rocket customization.

[Slam_Jones]

1 minute ago, Noname117 said:

The issue is I feel KSP is limiting itself by being a sandbox game. Giving the game more of a point would increase its longevity.

As it stands I'm quite bored of KSP because it doesn't give me any of the problems of a real space program, and there isn't a game which does while allowing rocket customization.

To each their own.  As Regex said, true Sandbox games aren't for everyone.  One must be able to set their own goals to continue at 'em.

I've played 1,100+ hours at this point, mainly due to, you guessed it, mods.  Mods which give me goals.  Mods which give me ideas.  Mods which extend the lifetime of the game dramatically.

I can nearly guarantee that the 'problems of a real space program,' as you describe them, are available somewhere in a mod.

[Noname117]

Yeah. Right now I'm trying to use Space Engine to make a new, more accurate outer planets type mod (If only I knew how to do it). There are several mods which would partially fix my issues (Probably a contract pack or two, and that mod which makes rocket building take time).

[Wjolcz]

Altough I agree that the goal of the career should never be the last node of the tech tree, this is very true:

3 hours ago, KSK said:

The problem with endgame content is that players motor through it and then demand more endgame content. I speak as a former WoW player. Not saying that's not a reason to do it but it would put Squad onto an endless content treadmill which they may not want to or be able to deliver.

IMO KSP should be about exploration, never the tech tree. Not saying having skins for parts and colony bonuses wouldn't be nice but the game needs something more than that to be engaging and keep the player playing.

It's really hard to think about something that would keep you engaged in a sandbox game like KSP. In Minecraft it was the building and finding that procedurally generated underground fortress. For me though it was always more about sightseeing. I would keep going and going to find a nicer place than before and if I didn't I would create one.

KSP is not procedurally generated though (maybe @tater is actually right and it should be), so the possibilites are finite. For me it should be the contracts. But maybe KSP could have some part building equipment (like Extraplanetary Launchpads) after a certain point of career is passed? 3D printing is not impossible in real life and in fact it actually seems like the future.

Or maybe the development of the game should end and a new project should be considered? I don't think they can squeeze much more out of it, to be honest.

[Noname117]

1 hour ago, Veeltch said:

Altough I agree that the goal of the career should never be the last node of the tech tree, this is very true:

IMO KSP should be about exploration, never the tech tree. Not saying having skins for parts and colony bonuses wouldn't be nice but the game needs something more than that to be engaging and keep the player playing.

It's really hard to think about something that would keep you engaged in a sandbox game like KSP. In Minecraft it was the building and finding that procedurally generated underground fortress. For me though it was always more about sightseeing. I would keep going and going to find a nicer place than before and if I didn't I would create one.

KSP is not procedurally generated though (maybe @tater is actually right and it should be), so the possibilites are finite. For me it should be the contracts. But maybe KSP could have some part building equipment (like Extraplanetary Launchpads) after a certain point of career is passed? 3D printing is not impossible in real life and in fact it actually seems like the future.

Or maybe the development of the game should end and a new project should be considered? I don't think they can squeeze much more out of it, to be honest.

Though adding an outer half of the solar system would add a good deal of content which is much harder to reach then the current content in the game. You could double the content to explore and maybe get 3-4 times the gameplay out of it.