[Most 1.12.x] Near Future Technologies (August 26)

[Nertea]

Minor NFLV 1.2.1 update:

• Added new custom RealPlume configs courtesy of Zorg

[AmpCat]

On 8/7/2019 at 5:17 PM, Nertea said:

I did fix this, but just a gentle reminder that a GitHub issue is the best way to track things so I don't forget, and barring that, putting the post in the correct forum thread really helps things avoid getting missed. 

Sorry, I thought Cryo stuff was under Near Future Tech, my bad.

I'm also terrible with GitHub, so I need to learn how to do that one of these days.

[AmpCat]

Bah, wrong thread. Ignore this or delete it.

Edited August 10, 2019 by AmpCat

[lajoswinkler]

What causes the reactors of NFE not to have throttle capability? I can turn them on and off in KSP's right click menu, and that's it.

[Stroud]

Hey, just thought I'd say that it looks like the upper cap on the Annular Modular Truss XL part isn't working properly. The outer ring of the model doesn't appear when toggled on. Maybe it's only happening for me, but I thought you might want to check.

[GJdude]

I've run into a bug with the pandora command pod where the docking light is always on - even in the VAB - and doesn't change in any way when I toggle the option. The texture for it isn't lit up, either. It's a shame since it's my favourite pod and I can't use it because of this. I've tried reinstalling, but it still persists. Is anyone else getting this, or is it a side-effect of running the mod on 1.6? It was still a thing even when I was running the mod's 1.6 version, so I don't think it's that.

Edited August 14, 2019 by GJdude

[Nertea]

28 minutes ago, GJdude said:

I've run into a bug with the pandora command pod where the docking light is always on - even in the VAB - and doesn't change in any way when I toggle the option. The texture for it isn't lit up, either. It's a shame since it's my favourite pod and I can't use it because of this. I've tried reinstalling, but it still persists. Is anyone else getting this, or is it a side-effect of running the mod on 1.6? It was still a thing even when I was running the mod's 1.6 version, so I don't think it's that.

I'll have a look when I have some time, I don't recall seeing this last time I played with that pod. . Are you running any other mod that might affect lights in some way?

On 8/11/2019 at 10:35 PM, Stroud said:

Hey, just thought I'd say that it looks like the upper cap on the Annular Modular Truss XL part isn't working properly. The outer ring of the model doesn't appear when toggled on. Maybe it's only happening for me, but I thought you might want to check.

I'll look into it when I have some time. 

On 8/10/2019 at 5:52 PM, lajoswinkler said:

What causes the reactors of NFE not to have throttle capability? I can turn them on and off in KSP's right click menu, and that's it.

I don't think I've ever implemented anything like that. Do you have full control (signal-wise)? Another mod affecting things (KSPI, Kerbalism, etc)?

[GJdude]

30 minutes ago, Nertea said:

I'll have a look when I have some time, I don't recall seeing this last time I played with that pod. . Are you running any other mod that might affect lights in some way?

I've uninstalled just about everything but near future spacecraft and its dependencies (though I left SSPXr in by accident) and lo and behold:

It is very much still there. I recall some near future solar panels emitting unusual spotlights a couple months ago too, but I haven't touched any of them since to see if they're still doing it. I'll give them a looking-over at some point on my full install to see if that remains or not too.

[Nertea]

17 minutes ago, GJdude said:

I've uninstalled just about everything but near future spacecraft and its dependencies (though I left SSPXr in by accident) and lo and behold:

It is very much still there. I recall some near future solar panels emitting unusual spotlights a couple months ago too, but I haven't touched any of them since to see if they're still doing it. I'll give them a looking-over at some point on my full install to see if that remains or not too.

Ok I'll check it out. I recall the report about NFSolar, I asked for more info but none was ever volunteered. If you see anything please let me know. 

[GJdude]

23 minutes ago, Nertea said:

I recall the report about NFSolar, I asked for more info but none was ever volunteered. If you see anything please let me know. 

Had a check over all the panels, deployed and undeployed, and they seem completely fine, so it looks like it's just the pod being weird.

[lajoswinkler]

3 hours ago, Nertea said:

I don't think I've ever implemented anything like that. Do you have full control (signal-wise)? Another mod affecting things (KSPI, Kerbalism, etc)?

I've removed Kerbalism and it works perfectly, just like you intended.

Please don't tell me NFE doesn't work with Kerbalism. They're two essential mods. Kerbalism actually makes a constant relatively serious charge drain. It makes NFE very useful.

[Nertea]

1 hour ago, lajoswinkler said:

I've removed Kerbalism and it works perfectly, just like you intended.

Please don't tell me NFE doesn't work with Kerbalism. They're two essential mods. Kerbalism actually makes a constant relatively serious charge drain. It makes NFE very useful.

It might work - I don't support it. Here's why: Kerbalism replaces every single functional component I have made with its own version that hooks into its own systems, which function differently, have different balances and who knows what else. If you install NFE and Kerbalism, you are getting Kerbalism's reactor mechanics. I don't know what those are and don't maintain the code so I can't support them from my end. 

quick edit - yes, confirmed that Kerbalism replaces NFE reactor modules with a generic KerbalismProcess...

Edited August 14, 2019 by Nertea

[Nertea]

4 hours ago, GJdude said:

I've uninstalled just about everything but near future spacecraft and its dependencies (though I left SSPXr in by accident) and lo and behold:

It is very much still there. I recall some near future solar panels emitting unusual spotlights a couple months ago too, but I haven't touched any of them since to see if they're still doing it. I'll give them a looking-over at some point on my full install to see if that remains or not too.

I've confirmed the problem but I have not discovered a solution yet. There seems to be an unpleasant interaction between the window lights and the pod lights - the ModuleLight implementation really sucks. 

[subyng]

2 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

I've removed Kerbalism and it works perfectly, just like you intended.

Please don't tell me NFE doesn't work with Kerbalism. They're two essential mods. Kerbalism actually makes a constant relatively serious charge drain. It makes NFE very useful.

Are nuclear engines throttable in real life?

[lajoswinkler]

29 minutes ago, subyng said:

Are nuclear engines throttable in real life?

There are many kinds of such engines but I don't understand the connection here. We're talking about reactors from NFE.

[Jognt]

6 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

I've removed Kerbalism and it works perfectly, just like you intended.

Please don't tell me NFE doesn't work with Kerbalism. They're two essential mods. Kerbalism actually makes a constant relatively serious charge drain. It makes NFE very useful.

It’s not that NFE doesn’t work with Kerbalism. It’s that Kerbalism changes NFE which means Nertea can’t do anything about it. 

Since kerbalism changes NFE parts (they replace its modules with their own) it’s more a case of not liking what Kerbalism did to NFE parts. Which is best brought up on their side. 

Again, the behavior you see isn’t a compatibility problem, it’s what the kerbalism guys intended to change NFE’s behavior to. 

[lajoswinkler]

10 hours ago, Jognt said:

It’s not that NFE doesn’t work with Kerbalism. It’s that Kerbalism changes NFE which means Nertea can’t do anything about it. 

Since kerbalism changes NFE parts (they replace its modules with their own) it’s more a case of not liking what Kerbalism did to NFE parts. Which is best brought up on their side. 

Again, the behavior you see isn’t a compatibility problem, it’s what the kerbalism guys intended to change NFE’s behavior to. 

Yes, I understand that now.

I've even tried to remove Kerbalism's Near future configuration file but it doesn't work. Kerbalism has a tight grip on everything, it seems.

For now, I'll remove Kerbalism because I want to enjoy NFE.

[Jognt]

1 hour ago, lajoswinkler said:

Yes, I understand that now.

I've even tried to remove Kerbalism's Near future configuration file but it doesn't work. Kerbalism has a tight grip on everything, it seems.

For now, I'll remove Kerbalism because I want to enjoy NFE.

If you want to check what files/patches hit what parts, you can always open up your output log or MM log. It lists every patch and what part it targets like this:

[LOG 12:23:22.053] Applying update CommNetAntennasInfo/Plugins/CommNetAntennasInfo/@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleDataTransmitter]:HAS[!#antennaType[DIRECT]]]:FIRST to SquadExpansion/MakingHistory/Parts/Pods/KV3Pod.cfg/PART[kv3Pod]

That's a random line from my output log showing that the file CommNetAntennasInfo/Plugins/CommNetAntennasInfo.cfg contains a patch that affects the KV3Pod.cfg from the Making History expansion. As you can see it even lists what filter triggered the targeting.

That should help you in tweaking your local Kerbalism install.
Though it doesn't hurt to bring it up in the Kerbalism thread. Who knows, maybe you found a quirk/bug that they'd like to fix

[mikegarrison]

6 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

For now, I'll remove Kerbalism because I want to enjoy NFE.

That's what I did. Again.

Every time I have tried Kerbalism, I have run into problems like this. Kerbalism just wants to control EVERYTHING.

(I think maybe because they are trying to solve the problem of figuring out resource usage and generation when the ship is unloaded. It's a problem that goes back to the basic design of KSP, which assumes that nothing is ever happening to anything that is not actively being focused on except that it moves through space.)

Edited August 15, 2019 by mikegarrison

[lordcirth]

Just now, mikegarrison said:

That's what I did. Again.

Every time I have tried Kerbalism, I have run into problems like this. Kerbalism just wants to control EVERYTHING.

(I think maybe because they are trying to solve the problem of figuring out resource usage and generation when the ship is unloaded. It's a problem that goes back to the basic design of KSP, which assumes that nothing is ever happening to anything that is not actively being focused on except that it moves through space.)

Yes, Kerbalism does universal background simulation, which inherently ends up stepping on a lot of toes.

[mikegarrison]

Just now, lordcirth said:

Yes, Kerbalism does universal background simulation, which inherently ends up stepping on a lot of toes.

Yeah, but "stepping on toes" is one thing. Completely overriding other mods that the player intentionally loaded because he/she wants to use is another thing. It means that, in a lot of ways, Kerbalism ends up being a stand-alone mod. Either you play KSP with all your other mods, or you play Kerbalism.

[lordcirth]

4 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

Yeah, but "stepping on toes" is one thing. Completely overriding other mods that the player intentionally loaded because he/she wants to use is another thing. It means that, in a lot of ways, Kerbalism ends up being a stand-alone mod. Either you play KSP with all your other mods, or you play Kerbalism.

No, you open a github issue, you fix it or someone else does, and then you play. I play Kerbalism with over 60 mods.

https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/issues/461

Edited August 15, 2019 by lordcirth

[Nertea]

I would love it if Kerbalism and other mods would work together to create lower effort solutions to solve this problem. As it stands other mod authors can't really work with Kerbalism devs as they don't come to us with suggestions for better interaction - we just discover what they did later and then have to field the support requests. 

Initial Kerbalism philosophy was that the mod would build its own balance and challenges in its own space - other mods would upset this balance so the original dev would only integrate other mods (and in this case, integrate means write their own implementations of what those mods did) when they knew how they would slot into his gameplay paradigm. If this has changed and development is more collaborative and open to interacting with other mod systems, we have the opportunity to work better together. 

1 hour ago, lordcirth said:

No, you open a github issue, you fix it or someone else does, and then you play. I play Kerbalism with over 60 mods.

https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/issues/461

Thanks for pointing me to this issue, I've added some comments, maybe we can in the long term work something out. 

 

[mikegarrison]

2 hours ago, lordcirth said:

No, you open a github issue, you fix it or someone else does, and then you play. I play Kerbalism with over 60 mods.

https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/issues/461

I'll just point out here that in your own link, somebody there just told Chris, "It's somewhat of a design decision at the core of the mod, to have our own unified way of doing things. But it's indeed not ideal when it comes to supporting mods that have their own custom things going on. All this being said, in my experience, it's less problematic in the long run to override completely other mods modules with our own. No matter if Kerbalism has custom code for supporting other mods code or the other way around, it will break a lot more often when either mod updates."

So yeah, I think my characterization of Kerbalism as making a conscious design choice to not accept other mods is essentially correct. Obviously simple part mods are no problem, but for mods that add other gameplay elements (like NFE, Heat Control, etc.), Kerbalism's basic answer is "That's nice, but we'll do it ourselves, thanks."

 

(ps. I'm not trying to stir up trouble between Nertea and Kerbalism. It's just that I'm kind of disappointed.)

Edited August 15, 2019 by mikegarrison

[Nertea]

29 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

I'll just point out here that in your own link, somebody there just told Chris, "It's somewhat of a design decision at the core of the mod, to have our own unified way of doing things. But it's indeed not ideal when it comes to supporting mods that have their own custom things going on. All this being said, in my experience, it's less problematic in the long run to override completely other mods modules with our own. No matter if Kerbalism has custom code for supporting other mods code or the other way around, it will break a lot more often when either mod updates."

So yeah, I think my characterization of Kerbalism as making a conscious design choice to not accept other mods is essentially correct. Obviously simple part mods are no problem, but for mods that add other gameplay elements (like NFE, Heat Control, etc.), Kerbalism's basic answer is "That's nice, but we'll do it ourselves, thanks."

 

(ps. I'm not trying to stir up trouble between Nertea and Kerbalism. It's just that I'm kind of disappointed.)

Yeah what was said lines up well with how ShotgunNinja originally dev'ed the mod and my conversations with them when it started out, so it hasn't changed. I think it's totally fine - I make a particular set of mods with a set of systems, they are designed to interact in a certain way, and other developers have different systems that they want to work differently.

Where I personally get frustrated is with things like SSPX, which provides a centrifuge module with basic functions. Kerbalism replaces this with its own module to hook up its LS, power, etc, but fails to replicate say, for example, the bits of the module that ensure that the IVA spins correctly. Little QoL things I write get lost, and inevitably I get bug reports that my parts are not working right because to the end user, a SSPX centrifuge is an SSPX centrifuge and an NFE reactor is an NFE reactor regardless of whether Kerbalism is installed. Where Kerbalism could do a better job would be in informing the user that these parts are, effectively, Kerbalism's and not mine anymore. This is exactly what @lajoswinkler just ran into. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Nertea