[1.3+] Stockalike Station Parts Expansion [retired]

[Domfluff]

That's amazing.

[Pulsar]

That's mind-blowing awesome!

Oh well,  time to revamp the idea. 

[Gyrfalcon5]

This stuff is looking interesting. Will this be in the next update?

[Domfluff]

The Storm Cellar is going to be a challenge - since Nertea's radioactivity mod is currently still WIP (I believe), then neither Nertea nor Roverdude have any radiation mechanics right now (Roverdude has talked about it in a more abstract sense - basically a lifetime limit on spaceflight).

Three options spring to mind:

- 0 bonus months, some amount of multiplier (it makes long duration space missions more palatable - this a "comfort" thing, insofar as "not dying of radiation sickness" is a comfort thing").
- Just making it as an overly heavy, poor hab module, keeping future functionality in mind.
- Using the "Medical Bay" Colony Supplies mechanics to push back the hab/home timers for kerbals in that part.

Option three does mean that you may have actual reasons to send Kerbals into the part from time to time.

I do still think the centifuge parts should be heavy multipliers, since artificial gravity is so important for long duration missions, this is in spite of how Roverdude models it.

[Nertea]

The storm cellar also functions as a monoprop/EC storage location, so that's a reason to use it, at least. 

[Pulsar]

25 minutes ago, Domfluff said:

- 0 bonus months, some amount of multiplier (it makes long duration space missions more palatable - this a "comfort" thing, insofar as "not dying of radiation sickness" is a comfort thing").

-snip-

I prefer this option. Sort of. 

Hammocks inside may provide minor bonus month boost. But probably not significant to account. 

I'm thinking of a more solid way to calculate extra time and multiplier based on stuff inside the module, amount of beds, bed condition, occupant per room, etc... A lot of math. Still based from volume though. 

Gonna be a long night. 

[Pthigrivi]

You're going to absolutely hate me for saying this but *I kinda like Roverdude's crop texture as a convention * Its simple, pretty, the colors look great.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Pthigrivi

[physicsnerd]

10 hours ago, Nertea said:

The storm cellar also functions as a monoprop/EC storage location, so that's a reason to use it, at least. 

 

10 hours ago, Domfluff said:

The Storm Cellar is going to be a challenge - since Nertea's radioactivity mod is currently still WIP (I believe), then neither Nertea nor Roverdude have any radiation mechanics right now (Roverdude has talked about it in a more abstract sense - basically a lifetime limit on spaceflight).

Three options spring to mind:

- 0 bonus months, some amount of multiplier (it makes long duration space missions more palatable - this a "comfort" thing, insofar as "not dying of radiation sickness" is a comfort thing").
- Just making it as an overly heavy, poor hab module, keeping future functionality in mind.
- Using the "Medical Bay" Colony Supplies mechanics to push back the hab/home timers for kerbals in that part.

Option three does mean that you may have actual reasons to send Kerbals into the part from time to time.

I do still think the centifuge parts should be heavy multipliers, since artificial gravity is so important for long duration missions, this is in spite of how Roverdude models it.

Not sure how you guys feel about Kerbalism, but there's definitely a radiation mechanic there.

[Nergal8617]

1 hour ago, physicsnerd said:

Not sure how you guys feel about Kerbalism, but there's definitely a radiation mechanic there.

Yeah but it has no bearing on a USI-LS config since Kerbalism and USI do not work together; Kerbalism overrides the stock catch up mechanic that USI depends on.  That being said, I don't know if Kerbalism and Nertea's mods can be used at the same time so there might be a reason for a Kerbalism config for these parts.

[TheSaint]

Now, too late, I realize what we needed: A Deep Freeze part to match all of these.

[Nertea]

1 hour ago, TheSaint said:

Now, too late, I realize what we needed: A Deep Freeze part to match all of these.

Eh, other mod support is a thing I'd like to have, but the Deep Freeze parts are fairly solid. They won't match perfectly, but they'll be close. 

14 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

You're going to absolutely hate me for saying this but *I kinda like Roverdude's crop texture as a convention * Its simple, pretty, the colors look great.

I disagree, to me it looks like someone vomited in the cupola :P. 

[Pthigrivi]

9 minutes ago, Nertea said:

Eh, other mod support is a thing I'd like to have, but the Deep Freeze parts are fairly solid. They won't match perfectly, but they'll be close. 

I disagree, to me it looks like someone vomited in the cupola :P. 

Haha don't tell RD! 

[Tyko]

would you consider releasing a set of procedural parts textures so custom tanks would match your style?

[Pulsar]

OK. The first pass of Habs and Centrifuges rebalance is up on Github. I decided to go middle path for stats. Centrifuges, expandables, and habs with common spaces have both extra time and multipliers. But I cut down on extra times based on how many Kerbals actually got the bed to sleep.

Eg: Shanty can hold 6 Kerbals, but only got 4 beds. So extra times are cut to 2/3 of original volume based extra times.

The problem that I found so far with this balance is the pilgrim centrifuge. (3.75m three arms one) If I'm correct, It can hold only 6 beds for Kerbals while carrying 10 crews on board, which will result in lesser extra time than PDF-C. (2.5m core centrifuge) Despite the larger centrifuge has more volume than the smaller one. Due to the smaller one can hold 8 Kerbals and 8 beds for them, the original hab time won't get cut down as much.

Right now I increase the bed capacity to 9 Kerbals. So it will have more extra time.

Another side is multipliers. I decided to base this one on mass to be consistent. Some module that doesn't have common space won't have multiplier bonus.

Centrifuges also got multiplier which depends on g-forces and mass of centrifuges, which will be averaged on the mass-based multiplier to prevent too excessive multiplier.

Spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R5QlSMEGIPzXR7dZev0v7P0M07dBNe-AMspuUbLODNg/edit?usp=sharing

[Nertea]

28 minutes ago, Pulsar said:

The problem that I found so far with this balance is the pilgrim centrifuge. (3.75m three arms one) If I'm correct, It can hold only 6 beds for Kerbals while carrying 10 crews on board, which will result in lesser extra time than PDF-C. (2.5m core centrifuge) Despite the larger centrifuge has more volume than the smaller one. Due to the smaller one can hold 8 Kerbals and 8 beds for them, the original hab time won't get cut down as much.

 

Again, throwing my lack of knowledge in there, but is that a bad thing? One centrifuge has more volume but less beds, so it's... more comfortable for less time, and one has less volume but more beds, so it's less comfortable but better for longer durations?

35 minutes ago, Tyko said:

would you consider releasing a set of procedural parts textures so custom tanks would match your style?

Nah probably not. 

[Pulsar]

@Nertea It's probably not. Maybe the way I tried to balance things.

In the end, I might just want to revert the habs to old volume based, no cut down extra time, no hab multiplier one.

[Domfluff]

- Rigid hab stats all look great to me.

- Inflatables seem a little bit higher than they should be, but not by much.

You could make the case for a fudge factor of sorts with the rounded corners (domes and round shapes enclose a lot of space, but some of that space is wasted, since you can't build all the way to the corners.
I'm assuming the plan is to use the USI Animation module to inflate these? (Material kits to kit out the inside, in line with the MKS inflatables). I'm not sure what formula RD uses for this, since the values seem pretty arbitrary on the surface.

- Centrifuge multipliers seem fine to me at first glance.

[physicsnerd]

19 hours ago, Nergal8617 said:

Yeah but it has no bearing on a USI-LS config since Kerbalism and USI do not work together; Kerbalism overrides the stock catch up mechanic that USI depends on.  That being said, I don't know if Kerbalism and Nertea's mods can be used at the same time so there might be a reason for a Kerbalism config for these parts.

Right, I just meant as an alternative for radiation mechanics.

I've used Nertea's other mods (propulsion, electrical) with Kerbalism, so a patch would be nice- maybe add radiation output to those reactors? IDK; there's a "Shielding" mechanic with Kerbalism as well that would fit the radiation shelter.

[Pulsar]

I update the USI patch, a bit more refinement. It's on GitHub now.

- Slightly decrease Multiplier on inflatables.

- Increase Multiplier on centrifuges to be based solely on mass. Extensible (somewhat rigid) one get more multiplier bonus.

- Decrease extra time on Pilgrim centrifuge to compensate low bedroom but high common space.

The Pilgrim should give more habitation time than PFD-C centrifuge now.

The Mercury centrifuge stats are really powerful, 360 extra months and 3.9 multipliers. For now, it will be compensated by sheer size and high EC use (about 50 per sec).

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Pulsar

[Domfluff]

With the new values, tried a fairly minimal 4 Kerbal Duna hab arranagement:

Which also fits very nicely into a 3.75m expanded fairing (Fairing from SimpleAdjustableFairings - basically the KW Rocketry ones)

So, yeah, happy with those values. The centrifuges are pretty heavy, so it's possible to have a less massive solution than the above, but not necessarily with the same form factor.

Is the plan to have these expanded with a payment of Materialkits, as per RD's inflatables? Something like that seems sensible, since you'll need to kit out the inside with something (chairs, beds, laptops, ping pong tables, etc) - and it would be nice to use the same solution.

[Pulsar]

@Domfluff  I'm glad you like it! I will do some real mission test if I have time. Need more data...

[Nertea]

28 minutes ago, Domfluff said:

Is the plan to have these expanded with a payment of Materialkits, as per RD's inflatables? Something like that seems sensible, since you'll need to kit out the inside with something (chairs, beds, laptops, ping pong tables, etc) - and it would be nice to use the same solution.

add:

DeployResource = MaterialKits
DeployResourceAmount = one million dollars

to the patches. Works for ModuleDeployableCentrifuge and ModuleDeployableHabitat

[Pulsar]

18 minutes ago, Nertea said:

add:

DeployResource = MaterialKits
DeployResourceAmount = one million dollars

to the patches. Works for ModuleDeployableCentrifuge and ModuleDeployableHabitat

 

Did the mass of predeployed habs will be lighter though? The way USI balance this is undeployed hab will be lighter than deployed one, then you put material kits for some amount of mass to deploy it. Making it as heavy as original mass.

Eg: A deployed hab weight 9 metric ton when deployed. When undeployed it's 1 metric tons. So you put 8 tons of material kits to deploy it.

[Domfluff]

Quick worked example of a KRV, which is more than capable of the Kerbin-Duna-Kerbin crew transfer, with supplies and hab time.

[Nertea]

Well, that's up to you. I don't play with USI, so I assumed you need the material kits externally. If you do it that way it would be simple enough to reduce the mass of the part by the appropriate amount.