Birdco_Space

The time warp we have, vice the time warp we would expect

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23 hours ago, Birdco_Space said:

  I'm also waiting for a mod that shows my masses in slugs (or pounds mass), forces in pounds force, temps in degrees Fahrenheit and distances in miles.  I got my engineering degree in the U.S., and all these conversions from metric into the English units I understand makes my head hurt.  
 

I had no idea that the US still used steam technology.

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7 hours ago, regex said:

I'm doing my best to thoroughly confuse my child by mixing unit systems as much as possible. Once I find out what they're teaching at school I'll exclusively use the other at home.

I'll one up you.  I'm and American living with Greece (temporarily),  with children going to a local Greek school, but who will, in a few years, be in a school in the U.S.A.  We use imperial units at home, when everything else is in metric.

every day from my wife "what's 425 in Celsius", "how many grams in an ounce" and "how many milliliters in 2 cups" because all our recipes are in cups, oz. and degrees Fahrenheit, and our oven, scales and ingredients are in metric.  Being an engineer, I am fluent in all the measurement systems, but it is hard explaining metric in relative terms.   Imperial is definitely easier in that regard.

And even more, I'm a mariner by profession, so I think of distances in nautical miles (6076 ft, or 1 minute of latitude (1/21600 of the earths circumference, measured through the poles).  That unit is by far the most logical measurement of distance for me, and I can directly relate it to the coordinate system we use for charting.

47 minutes ago, Ippo said:

I had no idea that the US still used steam technology.

The most efficient way of capturing the energy from splitting the atom is by using water as the medium of heat exchange, and water in its gaseous form is extremely effective at turning turbines, converting the tremendous thermal energy of the fission of uranium into usable mechanical and electrical energy.

I'm both an electrical engineer, and a nuclear engineer.  the NERVA is my favorite engine in KSP, because I trained at one of the locations the engine was designed and tested (though long before I trained there)

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9 hours ago, eloquentJane said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but England uses the metric system.

Also, the official definitions of metric measurements are based on physical objects and are in the process of being defined as physical absolutes (e.g. the silicon sphere that's being made to define the mass of a kilogram as the mass of an exact number of silicon atoms), whilst the imperial measurements are officially defined as specific fractions of their metric counterparts.

The only places I hear metric are doctors, petrol stations and the supermarket deli... everywhere else from pubs to carpet fitters is still imperial :) 

But yeah, metric is better because it's linked to a constant. Even though some of them were linked later, so we get very weird numbers of atoms :D 

1 hour ago, Rhomphaia said:

Except for the roads and the beer.

And everyone over 30 :)  Nobody in my age group knows their weight in kgs :P 

 

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10 hours ago, stibbons said:

Once you've actually spent some time estimating imperial measurements, then you're good at them, and don't need to care how long a centimeter is any more.

Fixed that for you. By which I mean, this argument is totally reversible.

For those interested, here's an interesting article on base 12 - the maths system we still pretty consistently use in time and date measurements. Most imperial measures fit into it very neatly, because they divide by 2, 3, 4 or 6. A major drawback of metric is that it works best only for multiples of 2 and 5.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5977095/why-we-should-switch-to-a-base-12-counting-system

Edit:

Actually, that cuts to the absolute core of this discussion - KSP tries to metricise timewarp, which is exactly the problem highlighted by the OP. Metricising everything else has met with exactly the same bafflement down the ages.

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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1 hour ago, eddiew said:

Nobody in my age group knows their weight in kgs :P

No, but I do know my exact weight in decimalised lbs! :o:D:D:D

 

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4 hours ago, boccelounge said:

I can do this quickly-- almost automatically, given decades of using my brain in this way.  But If I had to calculate 1/3 of 70cm...  Sure, I can quickly divide 70 by 3, but I don't have a tape measure, miter gauge, or caliper with 0.000001cm precision (nor does any human have the eyesight to read such a scale).

But why would you?! You round to the allowed precision and use that.

For carpentry, 1mm is the typical standard, so as 70/3 is 23.333333..., rounding to nearest millimeter, 23.3cm, easy-peasy. And *adding* is easy too. How much is 5-3/7" +  5-2/9" + 2/5" ? When you have the same unit as decimal fraction, it's trivial. If you have two units which differ by the decimal point position, conversion is trivial too. And measuring existing objects is pretty objective. Is your hole 1/5" or is it 5/24"? Guess which fraction was intended?

Nevertheless, in rocket science the only remaining part involving carpentry is ignitors for Soyuz rocket, and these are metric too :)

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Moved to development discussion, and as Squad is a Mexican company it stands to reason that they are most familiar with the metric system :)

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13 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

But why would you?

Because if your table design calls for two pieces of wood that are 70cm long, one of which must be cut into three equal pieces, then having two pieces that are 23.3 and one that is 23.4 is not acceptable.

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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1 minute ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Because if your table design calls for two pieces of wood that are 70cm long, one of which must be cut into three equal pieces, then having two that are 23.3 and one that is 23.4 is not acceptable.

I can assure you technical tolerances will swallow the difference. If the thing was to be 7cm long, you'd likely need to get down to tenths of millimeter, but 1mm of error in 70cm piece of wood will easily appear from air moisture, bolt tension, glue thickness, cut roughness, cut imprecision, lacquer thickness, and other such factors. It's not only acceptable, it's unavoidable.

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Just now, Sharpy said:

I can assure you technical tolerances will swallow the difference. If the thing was to be 7cm long, you'd likely need to get down to tenths of millimeter, but 1mm of error in 70cm piece of wood will easily appear from air moisture, bolt tension, glue thickness, cut roughness, cut imprecision, lacquer thickness, and other such factors. It's not only acceptable, it's unavoidable.

Tell it to an engineer.

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Just now, The_Rocketeer said:

Tell it to an engineer.

I AM AN ENGINEER.

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1 minute ago, Sharpy said:

I AM AN ENGINEER.

Haha, ok chief. :D

Edit:

For the record by engineer I mean 'maker of engines', not 'driver of locomotives'. :sticktongue:

Edited by The_Rocketeer

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3 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Haha, ok chief. :D

Edit:

For the record by engineer I mean 'maker of engines', not 'driver of locomotives'. :sticktongue:

Need my diploma scan?

Technically, not exactly my domain, as I'm engineer of automatics and control, but I had enough classes of material engineering, technical drawing, and such, to know my way around these subjects.

You define tolerances for given project (or pull them out from standards, if applicable). If for this project 1mm tolerance is insufficient, you lower it. You'll have two pieces of wood of 233.3mm, and one of 233.4mm. You'll install an air dryer in your workshop to keep moisture level. You'll measure the paint thickness and apply corrections to the project. Instead of just cutting the wood, you'll plane and polish the cut edges. You'll estimate allowed curvature and plane the wood piece to be much more straight, correct the thickness, and Instead of measuring the length along one side once and then using set square, you'll measure along every edge.

Tolerances are an inherent part of every correctly prepared project. Error within tolerances is something you just accept. Ability to measure without exceeding that error is a necessity. Using simple fractions in place of decimal approximations is not a substitute for that. So you got your pieces of wood to be all 1'5-1/3" but to what tolerance? Are they all 423.33mm or are two of them 423mm and one 424mm? Did you account for your saw blade thickness?

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Getting back to the original topic, there are at least two mods which control the time warp speed: Better Time Warp, and Time Control.

Both do what you want.

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38 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

Need my diploma scan?

It's ok Sharpy, I guess standards just vary. :sticktongue:

(In case it wasn't clear, I'm trolling you, in a friendly no-offense-intended sort of way. :wink:)

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Just now, The_Rocketeer said:

It's ok Sharpy, I guess standards just vary. :sticktongue:

(In case it wasn't clear, I'm trolling you, in a friendly no-offense-intended sort of way. :wink:)

Hey, thanks. You gave me the opportunity to use the line "I AM AN ENGINEER." I wanted to do this for ages!

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The nice thing about standards is that there are soooo many to choose from

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There are two kinds of countries in the world. Those that use metric, and those that have put men on the moon...;-)

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4 hours ago, Birdco_Space said:

The most efficient way of capturing the energy from splitting the atom is by using water as the medium of heat exchange, and water in its gaseous form is extremely effective at turning turbines, converting the tremendous thermal energy of the fission of uranium into usable mechanical and electrical energy.

Touché :)

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31 minutes ago, birdog357 said:

There are two kinds of countries in the world. Those that use metric, and those that have put men on the moon...;-)

And Burma

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5 hours ago, eddiew said:

The only places I hear metric are doctors, petrol stations and the supermarket deli... everywhere else from pubs to carpet fitters is still imperial :)

Well I've grown up using metric. The English schooling system has used it at least for as long as I've been in education, and the English scientific community mostly uses it as far as I can tell. Pubs probably still use pints because "pint glass" sounds better than "568 milliliter glass", and I suspect that other industries that still use imperial measurements probably do so mainly because they're run by people who are old enough that they're more familiar with it.

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14 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said:

You benefit from living in an era and culture where precise calibration of weights, lengths and volumes is readily available in the form of tape-measures, digital scales and measuring jugs. In former times, and probably in future times, these things are not so available. Remove them and the metric system immediately collapses, but master the traditional alternative - English/imperial measures - and you have a universal system of proven worth that will last you a lifetime.

Trusting in the metric system doubtless has engineering advantages and blah blah, but they are heavily dependent on the survival of modern culture. Meanwhile, traditional human-based systems may go out of fashion, but they do not go out of date.

I fail to see how the removal of 'precision measurement systems' versus 'traditional human systems' provides any value. The reason we don't use cubits anymore is because their definition was arbitrary and changed with the measurer.  Metric units are grounded in real-world constants.  A kilo is a liter (cubic decimeter) of water at 4C, and meter and second are based on the speed of light in a vacuum. Those values don't change, won't change, ever.  I know that the length my thumb joint is about an inch, but I also know that the width of my pinky is about a centimeter.  Neither are correct, but where is the benefit from using inches?  Without precision measurement tools in any units, you're still unable to apply them. 

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On 2/9/2017 at 11:54 AM, birdog357 said:

There are two kinds of countries in the world. Those that use metric, and those that have put men on the moon...;-)

There also used to be one that put men in orbit and outside their spacecraft first as well, including the first woman. Not to mention that it put probes first around the Earth, on the Moon, around the Sun, on Venus, around Mars, and did the first spacecraft docking.

I've heard its name was Soviet Union, and that it used metric

Edited by Aperture Science

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53 minutes ago, natsirt721 said:

I fail to see how the removal of 'precision measurement systems' versus 'traditional human systems' provides any value. The reason we don't use cubits anymore is because their definition was arbitrary and changed with the measurer.  Metric units are grounded in real-world constants.  A kilo is a liter (cubic decimeter) of water at 4C, and meter and second are based on the speed of light in a vacuum. Those values don't change, won't change, ever.  I know that the length my thumb joint is about an inch, but I also know that the width of my pinky is about a centimeter.  Neither are correct, but where is the benefit from using inches?  Without precision measurement tools in any units, you're still unable to apply them. 

First off, where did you get your assertion I put in bold from? I don't buy it at all.

Second, you're missing the point completely. There may be ways to determine the measurements you refer to as significant cosmic integers, but that is just as arbitrary as any other basis. As I said, the purpose of any unit is to be able to express the scale of something to another person without having to show them. The advantage of a cubit (fingertip to elbow joint) is everyone has one and for a grown adult they're all about the same size, within a certain tolerance. The purpose isn't to know exactly the dimensions of a thing, but to understand its magnitude and relative scale - whether the distance from x to y is larger, smaller or about the same size as y to z. Sure, it's not precise, but it is very relateable. Meanwhile, the mass of a hydrogen atom, or the speed of light, are not relateable to your average person. They may have all kinds of applications to high mathematical science, but not to the average human being, because they have no obvious presence in their everyday sensory experience. Perhaps to an interstellar traveller with no common language hydrogen-mass or lightspeed are more relatable and useful than cubits and stones, but we are hardly at that stage yet.

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