Eve plane design

[Biggen]

Will a plane that works on Kerbin work on Eve? Im pretty terrible at plane design so I usually avoid them but I wanted to explore Eve a bit more than I normally do the other planets. My rover is too slow at 10m/s so id look to come up with another solution.

Are there any recommended Eve planes on the exchange? I can manage getting it there and down. Its just the design of a working plane that eludes me.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Biggen

[Ty Tan Tu]

EVE does not have the oxygen need for jets, but a rocket powered plane will work.

[Biggen]

1 minute ago, Ty Tan Tu said:

EVE does not have the oxygen need for jets, but a rocket powered plane will work.

Ugh, I had forgotten about this... Well crap.

The only way to do it efficiently would be ion engines then. Wouldnt imagine you woukd get a ton of flight time with rocket engines.

[Ultimate Steve]

26 minutes ago, Biggen said:

Ugh, I had forgotten about this... Well crap.

The only way to do it efficiently would be ion engines then. Wouldnt imagine you woukd get a ton of flight time with rocket engines.

Except ion engines stink on Eve.

If you're up to a challenge, the most efficient way to fly on Eve is to make a reaction wheel powered propeller plane. But those are notoriously difficult to make and fly.

[Reusables]

Ion engines won't work since it has high gravity of 1.7g. Also the thick atmosphere makes every engine aside from aerospike, vector and mammoth unable to use. It's hard to flight that way...

You can use propeller planes if you are okay with its complexity and extreme price.

[Biggen]

Well I guess ill abandon my exploration and just do a lander/return. Bummer...

Edited February 19, 2017 by Biggen

[bewing]

There are also mods with prop engines. And I'm hoping that Squad will implement a prop engine at some point -- props are the obvious right answer both for exploring Eve, and for lifting your first stage when you want to leave.

[Foxster]

There are a couple of spots on Eve within easy driving of 5 biomes. So, if science is your thing then I'd recommend trying for this. 

[foamyesque]

A plane with onboard ISRU will let you fly around on Eve to your heart's content, but it'll need to be rocket-powered. I suggest the Mammoth, since efficient, aerodynamically clean ISRUing requires the use of Mk3 cargo bays anyway.

 

Outside of that caveat, a plane that flies cleanly on Kerbin will probably do so on Eve. Eve's ridiculously dense atmosphere more than compensates for the higher gravity as far as being able to take off or land goes, and after that it's just a matter of finding a useful altitude.

Edited February 19, 2017 by foamyesque

[Biggen]

Thanks guys!

I've been playing around all weekend trying to get a functional lander/return rocket for Eve working with no dice so far.  It's a damn hard feat!  I may put my Eve plans on hold until I continue to learn and get more experience with KSP.  I know have more than 200 hours on this game which seems ridiculous to say about one game.

[Foxster]

50 minutes ago, Biggen said:

Thanks guys!

I've been playing around all weekend trying to get a functional lander/return rocket for Eve working with no dice so far.  It's a damn hard feat!  I may put my Eve plans on hold until I continue to learn and get more experience with KSP.  I know have more than 200 hours on this game which seems ridiculous to say about one game.

Can you post a pic of what you have so far, or better still a craft file? I bet we could come up with a working craft between us. 

[Biggen]

10 minutes ago, Foxster said:

Can you post a pic of what you have so far, or better still a craft file? I bet we could come up with a working craft between us. 

I'm not at my home computer currently, but I was trying to play with some designs I saw in the Eve Lightest Lander Challenge: 

I was attempting to get tseitsei89's lander into orbit and I could never do it even when modifying with larger tanks and lifting off from 1000m.  

Edited February 20, 2017 by Biggen

[Foxster]

Ah, a few of those designs (mine included) are somewhat "specialist". They need some fancy flying to make orbit and have practically zero tolerance for error. 

A good starting point is something like this:

It is pretty much as you see. 

There are three asparagus stages of pairs of drop tanks of increasing fuel capacity and aerospikes. 

Then a stage of a 360 LF+O tank and an aerospike.

Finally a 180 LF+O stage with a Terrier. 

All the aerospikes fire on launch. 

Only things perhaps not obvious is an RTG clipped inside the last stage and three Elevon 4s around the bottom of the penultimate stage. 

Craft file if you want it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8pbffjg699b6sho/Eve test 1.craft?dl=0

You should be able to get this to a 105km orbit with about 500 dV to spare, but just as long as you get there then you are doing well. Just needs dumpable chutes, air brakes, landing struts and heat shield to make a complete orbit-surface-orbit craft. 

You could practice with this craft as it can make orbit OK. Once you have a good lift profile figured out then you can apply that to a better craft of your own. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Foxster

[Biggen]

20 minutes ago, Foxster said:

Ah, a few of those designs (mine included) are somewhat "specialist". They need some fancy flying to make orbit and have practically zero tolerance for error. 

A good starting point is something like this:

It is pretty much as you see. 

There are three asparagus stages of pairs of drop tanks of increasing fuel capacity and aerospikes. 

Then a stage of a 360 LF+O tank and an aerospike.

Finally a 180 LF+O stage with a Terrier. 

All the aerospikes fire on launch. 

Only things perhaps not obvious is an RTG clipped inside the last stage and three Elevon 4s around the bottom of the penultimate stage. 

Craft file if you want it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8pbffjg699b6sho/Eve test 1.craft?dl=0

You should be able to get this to a 105km orbit with about 500 dV to spare, but just as long as you get there then you are doing well. Just needs dumpable chutes, air brakes, landing struts and heat shield to make a complete orbit-surface-orbit craft. 

You could practice with this craft as it can make orbit OK. Once you have a good lift profile figured out then you can apply that to a better craft of your own. 

Great Foxster!  When I get home I'll download that craft file and give it a try and let you know how it goes.

[AeroGav]

22 hours ago, bewing said:

There are also mods with prop engines. And I'm hoping that Squad will implement a prop engine at some point -- props are the obvious right answer both for exploring Eve, and for lifting your first stage when you want to leave.

A nuclear turbojet would also do the job.   Please Squad, please.    The most lightweight mod with one of those was called Atomic age, if I recall correctly.   Or you could install Interstellar, but that is an 800lb gorilla of a mod.

 

 

[foamyesque]

My solution to that issue, @Biggen, was to use my plane as my lander (a job in which it excels since you have all the time in the world to pick a landing site), and the first two stages of my lifter. After all, if you're going around ISRUing in a plane with a Mk3 bay, you already have a big machine, and if you want it to have any range it'll have tonnes of fuel and a Mammoth, and so I configured it to have a bunch of that fuel in droppable tanks, and mounted the wings to that. The ISRU was also jettisonable for the return to orbit launch, to avoid hauling it's dead weight any further than necessary, but through a separate mechanism because it was in the center stack and not the drop tanks. Drop tanks and wings get me to thin air, the Mammoth on the core stack punches it to 70km or so, and then the circularization stage does the rest.

Also, since you've got integral ISRU and a giant pile of fuel, you can also use aforesaid plane to do everything from Kerbin orbit outwards; couple of boosters to supply additional fuel and thrust to put it into orbit, but, from there, fly off to Minmus, tank up, and then depart to Eve. You'll need to carry a tank of gas or another transport vehicle of some kind to get your Kerbals back from Eve orbit, but there's a variety of possible approaches there.

[bigcalm]

Yeah, a nuclear powered prop plane would be most ideal for Eve, but those don't exist.

The following flew ok on Eve - I mean, don't expect to get large range but it glides nicely, steers nicely and is easy to land - and you can visit at least a couple of biomes (and get an accurate landing).  It doesn't fly particularly well on Kerbin - not nearly enough wing.

 

 

[CanOmer]

Is there a mod which adds electric propeller engine other than KAX (which is for 1.2.2)?

[Geonovast]

4 hours ago, CanOmer said:

Is there a mod which adds electric propeller engine other than KAX (which is for 1.2.2)?

I believe Firespitter has some.

[Geonovast]

Nuclear powered electric prop plane!