Mk2 tank textures rotating incorrectly

[archnem]

Hey all:

 

I seem to have a weird bug/glitch.  When I rotate a Mk2 fuel tank in the editor, the texture doesn't rotate correctly:  usually, no matter what I do the plain white side is always "down", although it's random, I've been able to make weird things happen.

 

When I imported a shuttle from the SPH to the VAB that used a few mk2 tanks, suddenly they were facing every which way - sometimes one side will face one way and the other the opposite, sometimes the tanks just seem to randomly flip whatever direction they feel like.  It's seriously hurting my eyeballs.

 

Also, this is just the texture for the tank - I attached a girder and rotated the tank and the tank itself rotates correctly, just the texture for the tank is drawn in the wrong orientation.

 

Any ideas what might be causing this or how I might go about fixing it?

[sebi.zzr]

2 hours ago, archnem said:

Any ideas what might be causing this or how I might go about fixing it?

http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/10098
I'm 100% sure there is another thread on the forum about this,but i can't find id or was deleted.The title was "Can't flip Mk2 fuel fuselage textures,..."

[sal_vager]

Unfortunately this is a feature, I don't like it either but that's how it is.

I'll ask to get it revoked (again).

[archnem]

So tanks randomly pointing in any direction is a feature? Huh?

I guess I could understand if the "up" side was always "up", although it's still dumb.  But if I design a plane/shuttle in the SPH and import it to the VAB to be launched vertically, the tank textures point every which way.  (Especially since I now have to rotate the shuttle 90 degrees to have the wings facing the right way).  I guess it's a minor annoyance, but man, it makes my eye twitch.

[Yakuzi]

Any word on a fix @JPLRepo? From a UX perspective this is very unintuitive/inconsistent behavior and unlike the original Mk2 attachment 'problem' KSP 1.1 (1.2?) set out to 'fix', there are no in-game work-arounds for the bug-like behaviour the 'fix' created*.

 

PS: I tried to link a thread I started about this very problem in 2016, but it seems it was deleted. So here's some pics that highlight the issue:

 

 

 

* even if you modify the attachment rules in one copy of KSP, the parts flip over when you load the craft in another copy.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Yakuzi

[Yakuzi]

Any news on this @SQUAD @Darth Badie? The fix is pretty straightforward, as only the attachment rules of the Mk2 parts need to be changed back to their original settings... There's also an entry on the bugtracker here, but it got marked as "not a bug". While I can understand it is not a "bug" per se, it is very unintuitive/inconsistent/buggy behavior and there's currently no in-game workaround.

My gratitude would be eternal if you could fix this!

[Darth Badie]

On 2/24/2018 at 9:53 PM, Yakuzi said:

Any news on this @SQUAD @Darth Badie? The fix is pretty straightforward, as only the attachment rules of the Mk2 parts need to be changed back to their original settings... There's also an entry on the bugtracker here, but it got marked as "not a bug". While I can understand it is not a "bug" per se, it is very unintuitive/inconsistent/buggy behavior and there's currently no in-game workaround.

My gratitude would be eternal if you could fix this!

Hi Yakuzi, our devs are aware of this, if I have news about it I´ll let you know  

[klesh]

Ah this old, sloppy problem.  I was hoping Baddie had posted to say it was getting attention after years.  Guess not.

[Yakuzi]

This bug still exists in KSP 1.6.0.2395(x64). Link to the bug report here. Solution to the issue:

Change the following lines in the Mk2 fuel tank .cfg files in the GameData/Squad/Parts/Mk2FuselageLong and Short:

• Remove line: mirrorRefAxis = 0, 0, -1
• Change node_attach line to: node_attach = 1.25, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1

Please fix this @SQUAD, thanks!

Edited January 2, 2019 by Yakuzi

[OHara]

13 hours ago, Yakuzi said:

Change the following lines in the Mk2 fuel tank .cfg [...]

That works for me, thanks for sharing it here,
but then when we surface attach the tanks in mirror symmetry to a central stack, they start off in a funny orientation, just like the crew-cabins do.

I can imagine someone saying "only the hard-core players will notice the textures on the tanks, but everyone making a 'cool-looking' SSTO will try mk2 tanks alongside a central stack and get confused".  I'm not saying I agree, but I can imagine it.

Edited January 3, 2019 by OHara

[Yakuzi]

4 hours ago, OHara said:

That works for me, thanks for sharing it here,
but then when we surface attach the tanks in mirror symmetry to a central stack, they start off in a funny orientation, just like the crew-cabins do.

I can imagine someone saying "only the hard-core players will notice the textures on the tanks, but everyone making a 'cool-looking' SSTO will try mk2 tanks alongside a central stack and get confused".  I'm not saying I agree, but I can imagine it.

The "funny orientation" thing was the reason Squad introduced the fix IIRC. Here's my main issue though; you can easily work around this by pressing "w" and "d" once... whereas you cant work around the flipping textures flipping, even when you save a craft with the correct textures they will get flipped again when you load them in a different stock KSP game. So the pros and cons of each situation:

Current Mk2 fuel parts:

Radial attaching parts:     Easy
Rotation behavior:             Unexpected, counter intuitive, inconsistent, buggy
Asymmetric craft:              Yes
In-game workaround:        No
Bug persistent*:                 Yes
 

Original Mk2 fuel parts:

Radial attaching parts:      Medium
Rotation behavior:              As expected (like any other part in the game)
Asymmetric craft:              No
In-game workaround:        Yes
Bug persistent*:                 n/a

*Persistent: if you fix the .cfg files and share a craft with correct Mk2 textures, anyone who loads it in a stock KSP version will have the textures flipped again.

I fully understand the reasoning for making life easier for newbies trying to make cool looking Mk2 craft. However, this shouldn't overrule expected part behavior and unfortunately the current "fix" does exactly that. @SQUAD clearly knows this, otherwise they would have implemented these attachment rules to all parts, including the Mk2 crew cabin @OHara mentioned above.

Ideally, we would have Mk2 parts that attach easily and behave correctly. Until this solution is available, however, please fix the Mk2 parts so they behave like every other part in the game, as the current "fix" is a very sloppy, buggy attempt to accommodate the new player while resulting in unexpected, inconsistent behavior and asymmetric craft for everyone else...

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Yakuzi

[OHara]

I've been trying your suggestion with a module manager patch to change the five relevant parts:
@PART[mk2Fuselage*] {
    !mirrorRefAxis = delete
    %node_attach = 1.25,0.0,0.0, 0.0,0.0,1.0, 1
}
I used a different initial orientation so that we need just one 'q' keystroke to bring the tanks in the usual orientation.  

We should not recommend this hack with orientations, though, as a solution. 
It makes the physics asymmetric by putting the surface-attach joint in the wrong place on one of the tanks. The same problem is present in the stock game with the Mk2 Crew Cabins.  

The orientation numbers in node_attach do something strange; they are not rotation angles like the wiki says; if I treat them as vector components then KSP usually orients the child so that its parent part is along that vector, but there are exceptions.  

For some cases of those orientation numbers, and in mirror symmetry, the mirror image of the part just placed is rotated 180° about its center, putting its joint to the parent part on the wrong side.   This makes the craft flex in an asymmetric way, with the port cabin flexing about its inboard joint and the starboard cabin flexing strangely about its outboard joint.  Experimentally, the rotation tool is drawn at the point where the physics engine seems to place the joint, so those mark the joints in the image at right.  If you make a plane with wings mounted to surface-attached Mk2 crew cabins it won't fly straight.

Almost all surface-attachable parts in KSP have a plane of symmetry through their attachment points.  Excluding trivial asymmetry like text labels on batteries, the exceptions are Mk2 crew cabins and the fixed landing gear.  The crew cabin has hatch on top, and surface-attachment point on the right.  In order to place two with mirror symmetry we would need a left- and a right-handed version. 

mirrorRefAxis seems to be an attempt to mirror the textures of fixed landing gear and Mk2 tanks, so that they look like they have left- and right-hand versions.  The problem is that mirrorRefAxis unnecessarily mirrors in-line attached parts, and mirrors parts based on their orientation in the VAB, rather than by their role in a mirrored pair.

The desired solution would be to limit the effect of mirrorRefAxis to only surface-attached placed in mirror symmetry, and to only one of the two mirror-symmetry-placed parts.

[Yakuzi]

Still bugged in KSP 1.9.0.2781 (x64). Any news on a fix?

@OHara Bit of a late reply, but do you see similar asymmetric physics with the stock Mk3 parts? The 'hack' you tried above was suggested by @Porkjet when we first discussed this issue back in 2016 (the thread was magically lost), and is used for Mk3 fuel tank symmetry if I'm not mistaken. They should display the same buggy behaviour, right? Or are their attachment nodes right at the center of the part?

Edited February 25, 2020 by Yakuzi

[OHara]

On 2/25/2020 at 11:49 AM, Yakuzi said:

do you see similar asymmetric physics with the stock Mk3 parts?

No.  Why do you ask, do you?

I was including the Mk3 fuel tanks in "Almost all surface-attachable parts in KSP have a plane of symmetry through their attachment points.  Excluding trivial asymmetry like text labels..."   Those tanks attach with a joint along their side touching the parent part, and look the same in either radial or mirror symmetry.

The Mk3 parts that do not have enough symmetry either refuse to be surface-attached (the crew cabin) or attach on their ventral side about which they do have the right symmetry (the sloping Mk3/Mk2 adapter).    Everything works nicely in Mk3 parts.

I think the only practical solution in KSP1 would be to make Mk2 parts work like the Mk3 parts:  Disable the buggy feature involving 'mirrorRefAxis' and have the non-symmetric Mk2 parts either refuse to be surface-attached or surface attach at their ventral side.

[Yakuzi]

Very informative @OHara, thanks!

[Mr_Memetic]

Such a useful post, crazy they still wont fix it