NASA SLS/Orion/Payloads

[DAL59]

1 minute ago, Canopus said:

I think you underestimate the abilitys of modern remote sensing equipment.

No matter how good the chemical analysis, you need actual microbes for proof.    

3 minutes ago, Canopus said:

Also landing on Europas surface won‘t get you any closer to any hypothetical life

The ice is frozen ocean water, that moves over time.  It could have microbes just a few centimeters down.

4 minutes ago, Canopus said:

unless you get through the ice which is totally out of scope for many decades.

Whatever happened to Valkyrie?  

[Canopus]

1 minute ago, DAL59 said:

Whatever happened to Valkyrie?  

You mean the humanoid Robot? Because now i have this picture in my head of that thing digging a hole on Europa using a shovel 

[DAL59]

3 minutes ago, Canopus said:

You mean the humanoid Robot? Because now i have this picture in my head of that thing digging a hole on Europa using a shovel 

Not that, the meltbot.  

They've tested it in Alaska.

[Canopus]

2 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

Not that, the meltbot.  

Well Meltprobes are the obvious answer but it will probably be quite complicated to get a lander big enough to carry one and the kilometers of Cable it needs to the surface of Europa. And a mission like this is most likely decades away. Such a mission can only profit from observations made by the Clipper though.

[DAL59]

Interesting graphic

Except this part:

Quote

Cost and development time reduction

Hahahaha

[_Augustus_]

40 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

2023-2018 = 5.  

2023-2020 = 3.

[DAL59]

So it was already delayed 2 years?  

[Canopus]

1 minute ago, DAL59 said:

So it was already delayed 2 years?  

Originally from 2018 to 2020.

[tater]

Orion is leftover from Constellation. It’s been funded basically since 2005 at this point.

 

[_Augustus_]

5 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

So it was already delayed 2 years?  

3, actually. EM-1 was originally planned to lift off right around now.

[PB666]

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

No matter how good the chemical analysis, you need actual microbes for proof.    

The ice is frozen ocean water, that moves over time.  It could have microbes just a few centimeters down.

Whatever happened to Valkyrie?  

Where do you get this stuff? A few centimeters down from what, a mile thick layer of ice?

[Green Baron]

We've been through this too often. To sum up:

To find microbes on Europa you'd have to dig deep. Neither man or machine could do this even on earth if the ice is solid. The "ocean" is a hypothetical construct that fits well the observations, but has been questioned again lately when cracks in the surface were attributed to possible tidal effects only (paper is linked in the forum, i kindly ask to search). Local water pockets (e.g. in the south pole region) can be a thing.

Europa could most probably not have microbes just a few centimeters under the surface because it is too cold. Chemical reactions need temperature, best used above 0°C and below 100°C. And it is bathed in ionizing radiation that could kill an organism in a matter of days (check this pls. !)

If life at all, then near hypothetical thermal vents at the bottom of a hypothetical ocean/water pocket driven by hypothetically strong enough tidal forces to keep the interior favourable. Hypothetically out of reach for anything that we could build, even on earth. Just see what was done for boring 3270.2m down the Antarctic ice shield (Epica).

 

I agree that actual microbes for proof would be needed to actually prove something. Acquiring those would be short of impossible, even for a SLS BFR ETC PP thing ... rocket ... whatever :-)

Edited December 6, 2017 by Green Baron

[_Augustus_]

5 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

We've been through this too often. To sum up:

To find microbes on Europa you'd have to dig deep.

But you can fly through plumes?????

[Green Baron]

12 minutes ago, _Augustus_ said:

But you can fly through plumes?????

I can't :-)

That alone would not rectify a billion funds mission. It is unlikely to find a microbe in a plume ... i'd rather play the lottery ;-)

Edit: we'll have to wait for Europa Clipper and/or or Juice to address some of the questions.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Green Baron

[DAL59]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

not have microbes just a few centimeters under the surface

Not living ones, but long dead frozen ones.  

[StrandedonEarth]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

It is unlikely to find a microbe in a plume ... 

Much easier to look on the surface around the plume, and/or collect what is raining down around it. Getting a lander in on (a very kerbal typo) the surface in a plume zone would be a scientific bonanza. 

[PB666]

7 hours ago, Green Baron said:

I can't :-)

That alone would not rectify a billion funds mission. It is unlikely to find a microbe in a plume ... i'd rather play the lottery ;-)

Edit: we'll have to wait for Europa Clipper and/or or Juice to address some of the questions.

I say we send dal, why waste a good robotic space craft, a appropriate time DAL's head goes out the sampling hatch he puts out is official BSoA bug catcher net, catches what he can . . .we carefully store the net and send it back to Earth in the return ship. Did I forget something on this mission, . . . .oh well.

[DDE]

9 hours ago, Green Baron said:

That alone would not rectify a billion funds mission. It is unlikely to find a microbe in a plume ... i'd rather play the lottery ;-)

*whistles innocently while watching Western press get into a tizzy over Russians allegedly finding foreign biologial contamination on the ISS exterior... again*

[Green Baron]

9 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Much easier to look on the surface around the plume, and/or collect what is raining down around it. Getting a lander in on (a very kerbal typo) the surface in a plume zone would be a scientific bonanza. 

Hehe, Kerbal typo :-) But an intra-surface landing (cryo-braking :)) might happen looking at the surface features from far away ...

I don't object, any landing on a distant moon might be a bonanza. But that will not happen soon. There are probably just vapour vents caused by geologic movement and the friction of the crystalline ice sheets (study 2016). Very interesting from planetary science pov but the life watchers might be disappointed. Juice will soon(tm) be on its way, one year before SLS is rumoured to lift off for the first time  :-) Hail the probe :-)

1 hour ago, DDE said:

*whistles innocently while watching Western press get into a tizzy over Russians allegedly finding foreign biologial contamination on the ISS exterior... again*

Yes, and :-) ? Compared to Europa's surface the ISS exterior is a paradise, warm/hot, shielded, and in ongoing contact with earths rich lifeforms with a history of at least 3.7 billion years. This says, if that was your implication, very little about the presence of such things on Europa. Or have you put something there and that was the whistling ?

Edited December 7, 2017 by Green Baron

[DDE]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

Compared to Europa's surface the ISS exterior is a paradise, warm/hot, shielded, and in ongoing contact with earths rich lifeforms with a history of at least 3.7 billion years.

That would be an example of microbes making it to orbital altitudes. If you use a plume diver, you’d end up with fresh corpses to work with.

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

Or have you put something there and that was the whistling ?

...Don’t tell anyone.

Spoiler

 

I told Vasily not to do that stupid thing with the garbage ejector during the Jupiter flyby.

But he always was a very good shot.

[Green Baron]

11 minutes ago, DDE said:

That would be an example of microbes making it to orbital altitudes.

Yep, but these microbes have a history, they are a few years/months old and the environment is very different. You cannot deduct microbes over Europa from it.

11 minutes ago, DDE said:

If you use a plume diver, you’d end up with fresh corpses to work with.

Probably not me thinks. I think the whole microbes-on-Europa thing is just a hype fed by a lack of hard data. From what i read the plumes might well have just geologic/surface causes and the underground ocean on Europa is questionable. An exact measurement of the deformation by tidal forces would help ... if Europa Clipper launches it could do such a thing.

Juice is planned to such a thing on Ganymede.

[DAL59]

@Green Baron A eltbot is a very small probe with a heating element in front that melts a path through the ice.

[Green Baron]

An eltbot does not exist.

"Philbert Probe", why not, maybe in 100 years, with a portable fusion reactor :-) Right now we do not even know what to look for and where. Want to risk a lucky shot worth 2 billions ? In 10 years when SLS is a thing ?

Edited December 7, 2017 by Green Baron

[DDE]

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

@Green Baron A eltbot is a very small probe with a heating element in front that melts a path through the ice.

A meltbot requires either a high-energy-density RTG of the kind not currently produced, or a fission reactor (also of the kind not currently produced). Plus the sheer amount of cable need  means a pretty high minimum mass and size.

[PB666]

1 hour ago, DDE said:

A meltbot requires either a high-energy-density RTG of the kind not currently produced, or a fission reactor (also of the kind not currently produced). Plus the sheer amount of cable need  means a pretty high minimum mass and size.

There is only one RTG left I think?