totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[CatastrophicFailure]

4 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

That's a nice feature. 

When I lived in Phoenix I drove a 1975 Chevy Blazer with 2-65 AC.  One hot day, the water inside my canteen got hot enough to burn me.  Since then I've been cautious about the solar oven thing - but I guess technology has solved the problem. 

There’s a special IR/UV coating on the roof glass, it actually works surprisingly well to reject heat, even in summer sun. We notice far more heat coming in through the untinted side windows. That said, the wife has has a solid shade over the glass roof pretty much since she got her 3. The view is nice, but we just hate the sun. 

56 minutes ago, Beccab said:

They're covering the COPVs for some reason, any guesses?

Preparation for proper metal covers, maybe? Tho @Elthy makes a good point about black pressure vessels in the Texas sun. 

[mikegarrison]

4 minutes ago, Elthy said:

That movement seems awefull, even if you dont mind the hight that would make some people seasick. That job is certainly not for the faint of heart.

That movement is VERY risky. You don't want service equipment slamming into your flight hardware.

[Beccab]

https://surveygizmoresponseuploads.s3.amazonaws.com/fileuploads/623127/5489366/111-381503be1c5764e533d2e1e923e21477_HeldmannJenniferL.pdf

Accelerating Martian and Lunar Science through SpaceX Starship Missions - Jennifer L. Heldmann, NASA Ames Research Center.

 

This document was found between the "white papers" that prepare the next Planetary Decadal Survey

The list of authors is diverse : Academics, Industry, NASA, JPL and of course SpaceX.

 

Extracts:

- Capabilities

"Many early Starships are expected to remain on the planetary surface where they can be used for a variety of applications."

- Human Flights

"Both tanks have a stainless-steel primary structure, and may be repurposed later as pressurized living space on the surface of the Moon or Mars."

"These first crewed Starships will likely each have about 10-20 total people onboard [...]. "

"Current SpaceX mission planning includes [...] equipment for increased power production, water extraction, LOX/methane production, pre-prepared landing pads, radiation shielding, dust control equipment, exterior shelters for humans and equipment, etc. We suggest that the manifest could also include science payloads designed and built using NASA funding. "

"Humans will likely live on the Starship for the first few years until additional habitats are constructed [...]."

- Programmatics

"SpaceX envisions an accelerated schedule for flights, but NASA traditional schedule for selecting and flying planetary payloads is not necessarily consistent with this timeline \[...\]. In order to take advantage of these opportunities, a new funding program within NASA is needed to provide the opportunity for members of the community (within and outside of NASA) to fly robotic payloads on these flights. A program based on NASA PRISM, run in conjunction with CLPS, or an SMD SALMON (Stand Alone Missions of Opportunity) call, could be a viable pathway to create a robust portfolio of payloads that could be ready for flight in a short timeframe to achieve SMD, HEOMD, and/or STMD objectives. In order to be successful given the flight schedule for SpaceX missions, this funding program must be nimble enough to select proposals for funding and make grants within just a few months after proposal submission."

[tater]

41 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

That movement is VERY risky. You don't want service equipment slamming into your flight hardware.

It will happen much less once they have the rest of the tower hardware up I imagine (more secure gangways available?). Future vehicles will likely have that done in the high bay, anyway.

If the lift breaks a tile, they swap it. If it dents SN20? They've had bigger dents and they go away when pressurized.

This one is to only ever be used once, after all.

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by tater

[mikegarrison]

34 minutes ago, tater said:

It will happen much less once they have the rest of the tower hardware up I imagine (more secure gangways available?). Future vehicles will likely have that done in the high bay, anyway.

If the lift breaks a tile, they swap it. If it dents SN20? They've had bigger dents and they go away when pressurized.

This one is to only ever be used once, after all.

 

That's kind of not the point.

I mean, I understand this is dev test hardware. However, I was more pointing out that in general, service equipment smashing into flight hardware is a real risk. Anyone who works around planes is taught this. And these wobbly cherry-pickers SpaceX are using in the open air with unpredictable winds are just bad practice.

I don't know if they have a better alternative for now. Quite possibly not. But they need to be developing one. (And quite possibly they are, in their new construction bays.)

[tater]

3 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

That's kind of not the point.

I mean, I understand this is dev test hardware. However, I was more pointing out that in general, service equipment smashing into flight hardware is a real risk. Anyone who works around planes is taught this. And these wobbly cherry-pickers SpaceX are using in the open air with unpredictable winds are just bad practice.

I don't know if they have a better alternative for now. Quite possibly not. But they need to be developing one. (And quite possibly they are, in their new construction bays.)

I think the last bit is critical. Right now, they don't have an option, SN20 and B4 both need the high bay (hence the new one under construction now), and they want to keep moving forward with their test milestones.

I agree that those crazy-tall cherry pickers are sketchy (I'm far more concerned about the safety aspects than the vehicle, frankly—though I know nothing about those cranes, so maybe it's not a big deal), but this is a 1-off for now I think.

The Raptors are getting updated to v 2.0 soon, so the sooner they get this stack out of Boca Chica, the better I think—and it's leaving via the launchpad.

[tater]

 

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

How'd you like to be the guy who has to write the manual for what connects to what, using that image or even just from personal experience?

 

Although, to be fair, that looks like the electric panel in my basement did when I bought the house. 

 

 

It's better now 

[Cuky]

22 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

It's very hard to avoid extremely tricky political questions with this one, but I'm wondering if on Sept 1 it just became harder for SpaceX to recruit or retain women employees (or even men who are partnered with women).

Of course, SpaceX does have non-Texas locations. I would guess that actually most of their employment is outside of Texas.

 

(Note: I'm thinking we can keep within the forum rules by just discussing the possible effects on SpaceX, rather than the controversial new Texas law itself.)

 

I'm sorry if I come out as ignorant, but I can't wrap my head around how that new law in Texas has anything to do with retaining or recruiting employees, either women or men partnered with women. I know I may be missing an obvious thing (known to happen to me) so I'd like for you to please clarify that so that I can understand what discussion here was about.

[zolotiyeruki]

1 minute ago, Cuky said:

 

I'm sorry if I come out as ignorant, but I can't wrap my head around how that new law in Texas has anything to do with retaining or recruiting employees, either women or men partnered with women. I know I may be missing an obvious thing (known to happen to me) so I'd like for you to please clarify that so that I can understand what discussion here was about.

The idea is that there are (or may be) people who are unwilling to live in Texas as a result of the recent law that was passed, and so they will not pursue (or continue) employment with SpaceX in Texas.  So SpaceX could be missing out on some talent.

[Cuky]

15 minutes ago, zolotiyeruki said:

The idea is that there are (or may be) people who are unwilling to live in Texas as a result of the recent law that was passed, and so they will not pursue (or continue) employment with SpaceX in Texas.  So SpaceX could be missing out on some talent.

Thanks, I definitely missed on connecting that in my head.

[Lewie]

16 minutes ago, Cuky said:

 

I'm sorry if I come out as ignorant, but I can't wrap my head around how that new law in Texas has anything to do with retaining or recruiting employees, either women or men partnered with women. I know I may be missing an obvious thing (known to happen to me) so I'd like for you to please clarify that so that I can understand what discussion here was about.

@Cuky has a point

man, it’s easy to forget how big those tiles are. Wonder how much a single one costs. (Are there any details on that?) 

1 hour ago, Beccab said:

https://surveygizmoresponseuploads.s3.amazonaws.com/fileuploads/623127/5489366/111-381503be1c5764e533d2e1e923e21477_HeldmannJenniferL.pdf

Accelerating Martian and Lunar Science through SpaceX Starship Missions - Jennifer L. Heldmann, NASA Ames Research Center.

 

This document was found between the "white papers" that prepare the next Planetary Decadal Survey

The list of authors is diverse : Academics, Industry, NASA, JPL and of course SpaceX.

 

Extracts:

- Capabilities

"Many early Starships are expected to remain on the planetary surface where they can be used for a variety of applications."

- Human Flights

"Both tanks have a stainless-steel primary structure, and may be repurposed later as pressurized living space on the surface of the Moon or Mars."

"These first crewed Starships will likely each have about 10-20 total people onboard [...]. "

"Current SpaceX mission planning includes [...] equipment for increased power production, water extraction, LOX/methane production, pre-prepared landing pads, radiation shielding, dust control equipment, exterior shelters for humans and equipment, etc. We suggest that the manifest could also include science payloads designed and built using NASA funding. "

"Humans will likely live on the Starship for the first few years until additional habitats are constructed [...]."

- Programmatics

"SpaceX envisions an accelerated schedule for flights, but NASA traditional schedule for selecting and flying planetary payloads is not necessarily consistent with this timeline \[...\]. In order to take advantage of these opportunities, a new funding program within NASA is needed to provide the opportunity for members of the community (within and outside of NASA) to fly robotic payloads on these flights. A program based on NASA PRISM, run in conjunction with CLPS, or an SMD SALMON (Stand Alone Missions of Opportunity) call, could be a viable pathway to create a robust portfolio of payloads that could be ready for flight in a short timeframe to achieve SMD, HEOMD, and/or STMD objectives. In order to be successful given the flight schedule for SpaceX missions, this funding program must be nimble enough to select proposals for funding and make grants within just a few months after proposal submission."

INow THAT was a good read! Maybe add some radiation shielding to a Starship that you know won’t be coming back, make it a more permanent crew living quarter. 

I find the initial crews if 10-20 people more realistic. I believe 100% that Spacex can get Starship to work as intended+colonize Mars. I do find it hard to believe that 100 people will be willing to cram into a single SS. I always thought that 20-30 people was a more realistic crew capacity. Heck, maybe Spacex will be able to cram 100 people in one. Doesn’t sound too fun, to be honest. Not that the goal of these missions are to be fun, of course. 

[RCgothic]

The pressurised volume of Starship is on the order of 900m3 (32,000cuft).

Sure, it'll be cramped by earthly standards, but mariners have endured worse.

[StrandedonEarth]

24 minutes ago, RCgothic said:

The pressurised volume of Starship is on the order of 900m3 (32,000cuft).

Sure, it'll be cramped by earthly standards, but mariners have endured worse.

Interesting. A quick google tells me that 32kft³ is about the pressurized volume of the ISS: 32,333 ft³   
Finding the pressurized volume of a boomer is eluding me…

[mikegarrison]

1 hour ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Interesting. A quick google tells me that 32kft³ is about the pressurized volume of the ISS: 32,333 ft³   
Finding the pressurized volume of a boomer is eluding me…

Ohio class sub is 170m long and 13m wide, so that's about 17,000 m^3. Minus some for whatever isn't pressurized.

Way, way more than 900.

Maybe a third of it is reactor and engines? Maybe another third is missiles? Even at only 1/3 of that, it would be about 6000 m^3, or about 6.5x the volume claimed for Starship.

Crew is 155, so divide by 6.5 and you get 24 people.

Edited September 10, 2021 by mikegarrison

[zolotiyeruki]

What if, after landing on Mars, the now-empty tanks get reused as additional living/working space, a la a wet lab?

[NFUN]

12 minutes ago, zolotiyeruki said:

What if, after landing on Mars, the now-empty tanks get reused as additional living/working space, a la a wet lab?

 

5 hours ago, Beccab said:

https://surveygizmoresponseuploads.s3.amazonaws.com/fileuploads/623127/5489366/111-381503be1c5764e533d2e1e923e21477_HeldmannJenniferL.pdf

Accelerating Martian and Lunar Science through SpaceX Starship Missions - Jennifer L. Heldmann, NASA Ames Research Center.

 

This document was found between the "white papers" that prepare the next Planetary Decadal Survey

The list of authors is diverse : Academics, Industry, NASA, JPL and of course SpaceX.

 

Extracts:

- Capabilities

"Many early Starships are expected to remain on the planetary surface where they can be used for a variety of applications."

- Human Flights

"Both tanks have a stainless-steel primary structure, and may be repurposed later as pressurized living space on the surface of the Moon or Mars."

"These first crewed Starships will likely each have about 10-20 total people onboard [...]. "

"Current SpaceX mission planning includes [...] equipment for increased power production, water extraction, LOX/methane production, pre-prepared landing pads, radiation shielding, dust control equipment, exterior shelters for humans and equipment, etc. We suggest that the manifest could also include science payloads designed and built using NASA funding. "

"Humans will likely live on the Starship for the first few years until additional habitats are constructed [...]."

- Programmatics

"SpaceX envisions an accelerated schedule for flights, but NASA traditional schedule for selecting and flying planetary payloads is not necessarily consistent with this timeline \[...\]. In order to take advantage of these opportunities, a new funding program within NASA is needed to provide the opportunity for members of the community (within and outside of NASA) to fly robotic payloads on these flights. A program based on NASA PRISM, run in conjunction with CLPS, or an SMD SALMON (Stand Alone Missions of Opportunity) call, could be a viable pathway to create a robust portfolio of payloads that could be ready for flight in a short timeframe to achieve SMD, HEOMD, and/or STMD objectives. In order to be successful given the flight schedule for SpaceX missions, this funding program must be nimble enough to select proposals for funding and make grants within just a few months after proposal submission."

 

[CatastrophicFailure]

1 hour ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Finding the pressurized volume of a boomer is eluding me…

A missile sub is a bit generous, they're palatial by submarine standards. An old WWII diesel sub might be a better analogue, tho I can't find any stats on the habitable volume of such. 

It's maybe worth noting, that by the time Starship has any need to carry 100 people at a time, infrastructure on Mars will be well established, so they'd be arriving to prepared, suitably-sized habitats. They'd only be canned for a few months of transport. 

I also recall seeing something during an early Starship presentation, where they mentioned doing a high-energy transit to get the travel time down to just two or three months. That would make 9-ish cubic meters per person a bit more tolerable, especially with 21st century accommodations vs a noisy, smelly submarine. 

As someone said upthread,  mariners have endured far worse. 

[tater]

My guesstimate is that a fleet boat (ww2) is about 1200 m³ (pressure hull volume).  I used to spend rather  a lot of time making mods for SH4, lol.

[Beccab]

The alternative, of course, is to carry 100 people only up to a mars cycler and then take them to the surface once you are flying by with the same 100 people starship 

[RCgothic]

In microgravity volume can be used far more efficiently than in gravity.

Obviously this has implications for spinning a pair of Starships up with a tether to produce artificial gravity.

[Beccab]

 

[Beccab]

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Booster static fire... hopefully next week

Woot! 

[Beccab]

I'd put my money on either a 3 raptor or 9 raptor static fire, it seems too early for a 29 raptor one. But we'll see!