Relay connection doesn't work on Mun/Minmus

[Flo__1108]

Hello Guys, 

can anybody tell me why my Science-Lab-Base on Mun can't get a connection to my Mun-Relays? I have 3 Relays with an AP/PE of 3.5M km in inclinations of 90° so they form a kind of "sphere". 

But as you can see in the picture, the relays connect to each other, other relays in Orbit of Kerbin and Kerbin itself. Just not with my Lab on Mun. I am pretty sure the problem doesn't result from missing elektronic charge because even when the sun shines on my base and panels generate charge + full batteries I cant transmit my science. 

Because of that I am not able to transmit science from a lab on Minmus too.  I could fly an unmanned probe there, transmitting data even worked once! but suddenly there is no more connection. Now my scientist stacked up 600+ science at the lab. Transmitting that amount would eat through my batteries at half way so is there a way to transmit the science part by part? 

 

Maybe I just don't understand the logic behind relays though, KSP mechanics can be confusing sometimes... 

 

Here a screenshot of the situation 

https://www.pic-upload.de/view-33155557/DSC_0006.jpg.html

[Snark]

Moving to Gameplay Questions.

What kind of antenna do you have on the lab, and what kind on the relays?

Looks like the relays are talking to Kerbin just fine, but without knowing more about your lab, hard to say.

[Spricigo]

Seems to be lack of antenna power in the link between the Lab and relay. 

Assuming the Lab have a comonutron 16 (power 500k) and the relays have each a HG-5 (power 5G) this results in a max range between lab and relay of 1,58M. Much less than the actual distance between then. Incidentally if each relay have a HG-5 it's possible to have a range shortage between then in the current orbit (the max range is 5G, the max atual distance is 7G),  happen to be the case in the image of two relays communicating with each other while the 3rd only talk to more distant relays. 

Of course,  you didn't said which antennas are in use,  so we don't know if that's the case. But what we see it's suspiciously consistent with that scenario. 

[bewing]

Are your relay ships all the same? Because I only see one green line between two of them. So it looks like the third one is different from the others, and does not have a relay antenna on it. Or maybe the relay antenna on that third ship has not been extended.

And yes, you can transmit science in bursts, by opening the context menu of the antenna, and selecting "allow partial". It will take a long time to transmit your science though. Timewarping will help.

Beyond that, yes, it looks like you are out of range between your lab and the relay ships. You need to look at your antenna ranges.

 

[Streetwind]

6 hours ago, Flo__1108 said:

Maybe I just don't understand the logic behind relays though, KSP mechanics can be confusing sometimes... 

The part that confuses most new players is that antenna range depends on the combination of both the sending and the receiving antenna. If you want to cover a range of 5 million meters, it is not enough to mount an antenna with a 5M power rating on one ship. But no, the other side also needs to have enough power! It's somewhat easy to fall into this trap, because the Kerbin ground stations have such humongous antenna power, it looks like any antenna can talk to them almost regardless of where you are (at least at the game start). But talking craft-to-craft is harder. In fact, you'll often find that by the time you have enough power to link two spacecraft, you'll also have enough power to phone home directly.

actual range = SQRT(antenna1 * antenna2)

So, for a case where both sides have the same antenna, you take the square root of a square, and you simply get the antenna's own rating back:
actual range = SQRT(5,000,000 * 5,000,000) = 5,000,000

But if both sides are not equal, you always get a value that's in between the power ratings of the two sides:
actual range = SQRT(5,000,000 * 500,000) = 1,581,138.83

The second case is very likely what's happening to you.

[Flo__1108]

5 hours ago, Spricigo said:

Seems to be lack of antenna power in the link between the Lab and relay. 

Assuming the Lab have a comonutron 16 (power 500k) and the relays have each a HG-5 (power 5G) this results in a max range between lab and relay of 1,58M. 

Would have been a great idea to tell what antennas I use... 

On every relay there are 1 or 2 HG-5 antennas (the first antenna you can research in tech tree). While on my Mun / Minmus stations 5 HG-5 antennas should be enough to connect to my relays and transmit science (I guess I wanted to be safe when I build that Lab) 

 

What's BUG?ging me is that sometimes the connection between relays and stations seems to work and sometimes there is no green line between them. Plus how could I fly to Minmus with an uncontrolled probe? My tracking station is fully upgraded if that helps. 

 

[Flo__1108]

Ah, got it now.

There were 2 problems. My Lab on Minmus was flown there by a pilot which I later rescued with an unmanned Probe (Flew there with 1 Scientist and pilot in command pod --> Switched the pilot to unmanned vessel and 2nd scientist to lab on my 2nd tour to Minmus)

It seems you have no connection to Kerbin when there are no probes / pilots controlling the station. So every time I want to transmit science a scientist has to go up to the command pod and boom I have connection.

My Mun station had the Problem that scientific research takes a lot of energy which ate through my batteries at the dark side of the Mun. So my station comes out to the sun again but the research immediately burns the generated power.

--> leaves no energy for my antennas for a connection. But the funny thing is I couldn't stop the research because there was no connection. But as soon as I EVA'd with my Scientists it worked

[Spricigo]

7 hours ago, Flo__1108 said:

Would have been a great idea to tell what antennas I use... 

Since you didn't informed us about this relevant detail, the option was to make assumptions.

In my experience 'not enough antennas in the end point'  is by far the most common cause of problem with CommNet. So a good first thing to check. And the most simple combination a good example of what might be wrong.  

Notice that even this not being your case there still is useful info if you decide to use.  E. G.  A communotron 16 can connect with a HG-5 at 1,58Mm away,  which may be useful since the communotron 16 uses less eletric charge to transmit data. 

[The Moose In Your House]

That's strange, I have a Mun base and it connects to the space center without any relays. Even when the base had no probes/crew inside.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by The Moose In Your House

[bewing]

9 hours ago, Flo__1108 said:

My Mun station had the Problem that scientific research takes a lot of energy which ate through my batteries at the dark side of the Mun. So my station comes out to the sun again but the research immediately burns the generated power.

It is best to click the button that says "Stop Reasearch" until your transmission is complete. Research drains 5 EC per second, that you need for your transmission.

 

[Flo__1108]

4 hours ago, The Moose In Your House said:

That's strange, I have a Mun base and it connects to the space center without any relays. Even when the base had no probes/crew inside

Hmm, maybe you are using another more developed antenna, in the description of higher tier antennas there is something like "advanced pathfinding algorithms". 

 

4 hours ago, bewing said:

It is best to click the button that says "Stop Reasearch" until your transmission is complete. Research drains 5 EC per second, that you need for your transmission.

 

It worked fine when I clicked "Require complete"??  on my only extended antenna and stopped doing science. Like one percent-wise. 

 

KSP always amazes me. The physics and gameplay are developed so deeply and functional but the" workflows" sometimes seem a bit off. Like doing science > general control. And when doing science drains all your electricity you cannot stop it except going EVA. But I guess I just have to learn much more

[The Moose In Your House]

1 hour ago, Flo__1108 said:

Hmm, maybe you are using another more developed antenna, in the description of higher tier antennas there is something like "advanced pathfinding algorithms". 

 

But It doesn't have an antenna, but it might be the science module.

Edited May 13, 2017 by The Moose In Your House

[Spricigo]

24 minutes ago, The Moose In Your House said:

But It doesn't have an antenna, but it might be the science module.

With tracking station lvl2 or lvl3 the onboard antenna in the cupola module is strong enough to direct connection. 

However AFAIK  the built-in antenna of command pod don't allow science transmission. Are you sure you don't have a (modded)  antenna somewhere in the vessel? And that CommNet is enabled in the settings? 

[The Moose In Your House]

12 hours ago, Spricigo said:

With tracking station lvl2 or lvl3 the onboard antenna in the cupola module is strong enough to direct connection. 

However AFAIK  the built-in antenna of command pod don't allow science transmission. Are you sure you don't have a (modded)  antenna somewhere in the vessel? And that CommNet is enabled in the settings? 

 

12 hours ago, Spricigo said:

With tracking station lvl2 or lvl3 the onboard antenna in the cupola module is strong enough to direct connection. 

However AFAIK  the built-in antenna of command pod don't allow science transmission. Are you sure you don't have a (modded)  antenna somewhere in the vessel? And that CommNet is enabled in the settings? 

Nope, the craft is completely stock.

[bewing]

In any case, Spricigo is right. Without a probe core or crew, a vessel is classed as "debris" and cannot do anything. Certainly not transmit science. It may be able to detect a signal, but it cannot do anything with it.