SQUAD

KSP Weekly: Fixing projects and making contact

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1 hour ago, Tidus Klein said:

I don't think KSP will ever get a sequel, it's not that type of game. 

Most games that get sequels get them to tie together lore or expand upon the universe of the game and its story.

ksp dosent really have "lore" or a story to expand on its a IMO a simulation builder.. a physics fun land that's only truly driven by are imagination and creativity. 

 

Squad has not decided to employ a software as a service model for its product. So outside of that model for software development and sales, new major product numbers have a long history of being developed and sold as seperate products to the preceding versions. It is not at all strange to think that if Squad intended to make significant changes/advances to KSP that they would do so as a new product to earn money for all their hard work.

After all, as you point out, there's very little meaningful lore or directed storytelling within KSP, so why should we consider it a narrative getting a sequel when it would more closely resemble a new major version release of a popular software title?

 

If you propose that KSP will just be constantly updated, well, unless Squad has a plan for the slow trickle of long-tail sales or numerous paid DLC to provide the revenue I just don't see how that makes one darn bit of good business sense. Even if that were the case, I would suspect the current code base would eventually severely limit what additions they could make.

Edited by Mako

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4 hours ago, Mako said:

I understand that Squad feels that since some people can't handle a roadmap no one should have one, but I feel like this is like removing the swings from the playground because a few children were injured when they used it improperly.

I'd dispute that and argue that these "playground swing accidents" happened as a result of squad not providing a proper roadmap leading to people reading between the lines speculating and those speculations growing legs with squad doing nothing to curb peoples expectations until it was too late. Its all one big failure to communicate.

People taking a line out of a recent weekly address to mean making history will have planet scaling is a prime example of the reading between the lines that happens when squad doesn't use a roadmap that people can refer to.

Edited by passinglurker

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1 hour ago, passinglurker said:

I'd dispute that and argue that these "playground swing accidents" happened as a result of squad not providing a proper roadmap leading to people speculating and those speculations growing legs with squad doing nothing to curb peoples expectations until it was too late. Its all one big failure to communicate.

I agree that there is a failure to communicate that only Squad can remedy, so therefore they hold the blame.

I disagree that Squad is solely responsible for unrealistic expectations drempt up by community members. Squad only has the blame for the disappointment anyone might experience when their wish doesn't come true if Squad officially announces it will definitely fulfill that wish and then refuses to deliver. Even in that situation I would argue that the user, while not causing the hope and subsequent disappointment directly, would be learning valuable life lessons: things don't always go as planned and life isn't always fair.

Lastly, my argument with the swing set analogy is that Squad is reacting to the potential behavior of some community members regarding the reason for lack of public roadmap. Your argument seems to be that Squad is to blame for inciting negative behaviors. They are related, to be sure, but are not the same arguement. However I think we can both agree that Squad's prevention of negative behaviors from some members of the community by keeping any hint of a direction or fragment of public roadmap comes at the cost of some of the community's understanding, interest, and goodwill.

 

Edited by Mako

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1 hour ago, passinglurker said:


People taking a line out of a recent weekly address to mean making history will have planet scaling is a prime example of the reading between the lines that happens when squad doesn't use a roadmap that people can refer to.

I do agree that without a roadmap for context these types of reveals with little to no details are unhelpful to just about everyone until clarified. Until clarified these types of unexpected reveals without context make it feel like Squad is lacking direction and vision for KSP. I know that it has been said by Squad staff that there is an internal roadmap, but I don't believe that is the best way to to work on an community-involved, open-development model game. If Squad wants to produce KSP in a closed-development style that's their choice, but everything they do says that's not the case... except for the lack of public roadmap.

I've always wanted to see Squad commit fully to an open-development style, or at the very least talk about the intent for KSP. Without that, it's very hard to forget that they're new to making games and very easy to believe they have no idea what they're doing and they're making it up as they go while crossing fingers and hoping for the best and refusing to discuss the matter with the people who care the most: this community that they have always seemed so proud of.

And don't get me wrong, I stick around to see what Squad brings to the table in the hopes I'll be pleasantly surprised, because I really do like KSP. I just feel there is a not insignificant amount of unrealized potential but I don't see much from Squad to show that they see the potential and intend to realize it before they call KSP finished.

I, like most people, don't usually enjoy being wrong, but this time I'd welcome it.

Edited by Mako

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2 hours ago, passinglurker said:

I'd dispute that and argue that these "playground swing accidents" happened as a result of squad not providing a proper roadmap leading to people reading between the lines speculating and those speculations growing legs with squad doing nothing to curb peoples expectations until it was too late. Its all one big failure to communicate.

People taking a line out of a recent weekly address to mean making history will have planet scaling is a prime example of the reading between the lines that happens when squad doesn't use a roadmap that people can refer to.

So now Squad is responsible for the kind of wild, baseless speculation which inundates everything on the internet? 

Okay then. 

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2 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

So now Squad is responsible for the kind of wild, baseless speculation which inundates everything on the internet?

For what it's worth, I originally brought up the idea of scaling with the more or less explicit caveat that it was speculation.

This week people returned to it because of the line about "PQS manipulation." Anyone who hears that phrase and immediately understands what it implies must be a lot smarter than me - to my ears it sounds like it could mean just about anything.

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34 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

So now Squad is responsible for the kind of wild, baseless speculation which inundates everything on the internet? 

Okay then. 

The speculation that actually tends to grow legs is rarely "wild" and "baseless" serious cases are the result of a long term culmination of clues and evidence. Anyway my point was people can't blame the lack of a roadmap on the behavior people have exhibited trying to fill the information void in an environment that lacks a roadmap.

It's squads choice to adopt a stance of teasing its user base with piecemeal information. I'm sure they've talked it over and decided they were willing to put up with the speculations, uncertainties, and disappointments this would inevitably cause in exchange for the flexibility in direction this provides, but saying they close up because of salty users doesn't make sense because the teasing model makes salt too.

Edited by passinglurker

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4 hours ago, Tidus Klein said:

I don't think KSP will ever get a sequel, it's not that type of game. 

If Hollywood has taught us only one thing, it is that a sequel can be made about anything.

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I wonder if the cheat menu would be available to consoles in the next update. It'll be nice if i had it.

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For the second year they "slowly but surely" crawl to correcting the infamous consoles release ... Ugh.

Edited by Kerbuvim

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4 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

So now Squad is responsible for the kind of wild, baseless speculation which inundates everything on the internet? 

Not responsible, but probably involved specifically regarding KSP futures - but yes, not everything on the internet. Well spotted V. :wink: (sarcasm - but true)

(BTW Inflating and widening an opposing proposition through a hyperbolic straw man rarely helps)

It is probably fair to assume that when squad chooses to say nothing concrete, then players will likely assume anything, even if it is (and especially) baseless.

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1 hour ago, Wallygator said:

It is probably fair to assume that when squad chooses to say nothing concrete, then players will likely assume anything, even if it is (and especially) baseless.

But when they say "a window to visualize and manipulate PQS celestial bodies", some players assume "planet scaling", so I can see why some people argue they can't win no matter what.

If I may propose a KSP Weekly reader's rule of thumb: SQUAD announcements usually highlight the most exciting things directly, not vaguely and indirectly. If they were going to scale the planets, they'd probably say "We're scaling the planets!" in big bold letters at the top.

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Speculation is immune to logic and common sense, and needs no encouragement. It's like a weed that grows even where there is no soil. 

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1 hour ago, HebaruSan said:

they can't win no matter what.

Kraken, I [dislike] this saying.  

Edited for harsh language.  Hate is such a strong word.

Edited by klgraham1013

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Yeah for thin decouplers! Can 1.3 make all the decoupler options kinda like that? Seriously, the 2.5m decoupler is terrible just because of how bloated it feels.

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34 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Speculation is immune to logic and common sense, and needs no encouragement. It's like a weed that grows even where there is no soil. 

The pesticide of speculation is the truth. The greater the flow of information the more the growth of rumors can be mitigated and controlled. Through well communicated intentions and plans speculations can be nipped in the bud early and misunderstandings clarified. Then as people grow accustomed to receiving answers they will be less inclined to speculate in the first place.

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It's always fun to open up the Weekly thread and find that people are arguing about the exact same thing for the 4th week running. 

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2 hours ago, passinglurker said:

The pesticide of speculation is the truth. The greater the flow of information the more the growth of rumors can be mitigated and controlled. Through well communicated intentions and plans speculations can be nipped in the bud early and misunderstandings clarified. Then as people grow accustomed to receiving answers they will be less inclined to speculate in the first place.

You are not reading the same internet I'm reading. People who want to speculate will, no matter how much information is or is not available. 

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Just now, Vanamonde said:

You are not reading the same internet I'm reading. People who want to speculate will, no matter how much information is or is not available. 

There will always be some degree of speculative "background noise" due to all communities haveing thier share of bright eyed newcomers that think they're the first ones to come up with some obvious unimplemented idea like multiplayer, or terraforming, but those who stay and become active in a community learn to do better sooner or later. The fact of the matter is that more information discourages speculation to a degree and the withholding and teasing of information encourages it.

Personally I can't think of a happier time here than during the development of 1.2 before the developer exodus it was probably some of the most active and candid communication this community ever got from the devs, and emulating that would go a long way towards stopping speculations from turning into expectations.

1 hour ago, KerbalSaver said:

It's always fun to open up the Weekly thread and find that people are arguing about the exact same thing for the 4th week running. 

I'm confused I thought the last 3 weeks were arguments about art previews not the fundamentals of speculations, what causes them, how to to curb them, and whether they should be curbed?

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1 hour ago, Vanamonde said:

You are not reading the same internet I'm reading. People who want to speculate will, no matter how much information is or is not available. 

That's certainly my experience on gaming forums. The more information players get the more they demand and the louder they demand it. And no matter what the developers say, it never seems to stop players reading what they want into those statements - and then pitching a hissy fit when the finished game fails to match up to their overblown expectations. In a rational world, @passinglurker's comments would be correct - but gaming forums are rarely rational.

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Blured gray text boxes and a separator? That is the best you can show? Seriously? :(

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In FTR "squad sux"

Love the decouplers, looking forward to the mission planner, would love my life to be so carefree that I could describe video game assets with such vitriol.

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I'd like to see every small game-dev firm adopt methodologies like those of Wube. In case you didn't know, they're the ones who make Factorio.

Some things I've noted (not all of which are necessarily pertinent to this discussion):
-Don't publish it to major platforms (like Steam) until you have a Game. Not just a "game", but a Game that is fun to play and works relatively well.
-Make use of branches when you serve your customers. That is, when you have a version that is stable enough, push it to the experimental branch. Once the bugtracker empties, push to the stable branch.
-Stable Enough means no crashing, no corruption, and no game-breaking bugs of other kinds.
-Optimize throughout your development. The game needs to run well enough to be enjoyable in every version available to the public.
-Inform your customers of development. Periodic, content-rich updates are important to the customers, so they will not be surprised by a delay. A vague roadmap (gasp) is also somewhat useful. Wube has one of these, and I have not noticed any problems arising from misinterpretation thereof.
-Explain yourselves when there are delays. The delay will cause angst, but the explanation makes people much more inclined to understand. Explanations should be concurrent with the announcement of the delay.
-Have a strong developer presence in your community. Customers tend to like it better when they can talk to the ones who supplied the software.
-Run development in such a way that you can make estimates as to release dates.
-If you aren't going to meet a date, know this and plan accordingly.

Together, these policies serve Wube well. In the old days (before 0.25), SQUAD operated similarly, but they've gotten more quiet as time has gone on. Communication slipped, hard deadlines appeared, and the general quality of Forum interaction appears to have diminished. The sudden jump from alpha to beta to released was jarring to me (and presumably others). The decision to port to consoles was met with much concern, and most (if not all) would agree that this concern was warranted. The extraordinary dearth of information with regards to said ports might be legal-related, but it is still bad for customer satisfaction and should be addressed.

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On 21/05/2017 at 10:58 AM, Tidus Klein said:

I don't think KSP will ever get a sequel, it's not that type of game. 

Most games that get sequels get them to tie together lore or expand upon the universe of the game and its story.

 

 

If they do a sequel it'll be most likely I think to start on fresh base of code and/or new engine

Kinda easier to start anew than to fix broken code from 5 years ago

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11 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

You are not reading the same internet I'm reading. People who want to speculate will, no matter how much information is or is not available. 

So since some people will speculate anyway, ignoring everyone and withholding information so everyone can speculate together is a better solution than attempting to prevent speculation with information and attempting to correct misunderstandings and finally just ignoring individuals who refuse to accept the truth?

If that's the way to go, why do we even have this weekly KSP Weekly?

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