Comm net.. erm???

[MoridinUK]

Ok so I need to set up a comm net around kerbin, and her moons, etc.  I'm early in the game, but most of my contract options are stupid and dull (test a solid fuel booster while in an escape kerbin etc etc )  I need science to unlock some heavier lifting equipment!

So after obriting a few times for science I'm looking to start my comm net.

I've been searching and can't find any straight answers.

I've read this: 

 But it doesn't answer my really basic questions... such as what do I want on my sats, do they need to down link to KSC or just have a down link to Kerbin?  What kind of antenna do what?  and all these stupid questions... I'm really confused.  Do my sats need two dishes (one outwards the other down to kerbins surface) or more?   

Any suggestions would be helpful, I read a guide that explained what could and could not be done with each antena, but I got a little confused (it suggested they all needed several dishes, to link to each other and to probes/ships out in the ether and that one had to conntect to KSC itself at all time...)

I have heard I should set up a huge dish array at KSC and well basically I'm utterly confused as to what to do! 

Any advice?  I was going to try for 3 /4 in keostaionary orbit, until I read the above!  

 

[FloppyRocket]

Sorry, this doesn't really answer your question, and may be you've already done this. But if you need science points early in a career, I recommend you collect everything you can from the many biomes around the space center. Each area of the center has points waiting to be collected (crew report, eva report, temperature, pressure, surface sample, etc.).

You can get all of the science from the launch pad and runway biomes using just a command pod with Jeb, you launch from the assembly building or the hangar, go on an EVA, and walk nearby.

Once you unlock enough science to get a set of wheels, then you can make a simple rocket powered pod rover, and drive yourself to each of the physical areas of the space center grounds. You can get science points from all of those biomes as well.

There are hundreds of science points available.

Sorry for this reply if you've already covered this method.

[bewing]

There are two kinds of antenna. Direct and relay. Relays can bounce signals from a source to a destination. Direct antennas can't. Antennas cannot be pointed. They are omnidirectional.

So on a comm satellite, you want relay antennas. On a rover, you can use a direct antenna because the rover will not be bouncing signals.

If you put more than one antenna of the same type on a ship, that is called "stacking". It increases the transmission power of the ship slightly.

Kerbin defaults to having many ground-based antennas all over the planet (you can see them as the destinations of the green commnet lines). You can turn them off in your settings so that only KSC has a tracking station.

So usually, all you need is to get a signal back to Kerbin. If a celestial body is occluding your signal, you may have no reception.

At the beginning of the game, the only relay antenna you have is the HG5. It is a toy you can amuse yourself with in orbit, but it is not a practical antenna to use in any real sense. To go anywhere and expect to have signal, you need to unlock the RA2 antenna first.

It is very important to know the antenna range equation and what it means: range = sqrt ( antenna_power1 * antenna_power2 )

-- it means that if you have two ships with weak antennas, the communication range between them will be very short!

 

[Spricigo]

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/CommNet   seems to have all the necessary info.

 

16 minutes ago, MoridinUK said:

(1) What do I want on my sats, do they need to down link to KSC or just have a down link to Kerbin? (2)  What kind of antenna do what?  and all these stupid questions... I'm really confused.  (3)Do my sats need two dishes (one outwards the other down to kerbins surface) or more?   

 

Any suggestions would be helpful, I read a guide that explained what could and could not be done with each antena, but I got a little confused (it suggested they all needed several dishes, to link to each other and to probes/ships out in the ether and that one had to conntect to KSC itself at all time...)

I have heard I should set up a huge dish array at KSC and well basically I'm utterly confused as to what to do! 

(4)Any advice?  I was going to try for 3 /4 in keostaionary orbit, until I read the above!  

 

1.you need only to link to kerbin (if you have extra ground station enabled, which is the default)

2.relay antenas

3.antennas don't need to be pointed outwards or inwards; however more antennas may result in a greater range.

4.Read he guide I linked and understand how range is calculated. You don't need relays if your craft have a antenna strong enough to be in range of kerbin's ground station and in line of sight.(e.g. if you have tracking station level 2 any antenna will be strong enough for Kerbin SoI). For most celestial bodies (mun, minmus, duna) a triangular formation will be good enough for relaying signal to the far side. For Mun and Minmus , if you are using HG-5 in your relays and communotron 16 in the vessels the range will be quite short and you probably want the relays as low as possible, for other planets you will probably using stronger antennas.

[MoridinUK]

ER right, so I need relays to pass info on, and I can't use a directional on my probe to reach the relay?  

You see i'm confused...

Relay dishes on my sats allow me to bounce a message onwards.. so one placed in high orbit around (20 Mm is what 20000km?) means any directional dish pointed at them could be passed on to Kerbin?  I only need dishes around kerbin, if my directional can't reach quite to kerbin or there is something in the way?

I'm startying to understand.  The Ra-2 is a long way into the tech tree!  I know I can just go to Mun manned, but it doesn't seem right!

How do I figure out antenna power?

Edit: Cross post! I hadn't seen Spricigo's post  right thanks!  I think I'm understanding...

Edited May 22, 2017 by MoridinUK

[Spricigo]

15 minutes ago, bewing said:

At the beginning of the game, the only relay antenna you have is the HG5. It is a toy you can amuse yourself with in orbit, but it is not a practical antenna to use in any real sense.

It works for far side of Mun/Minmus if you accept that you don’t need 105% coverage 120% of the time. No, it don't make a spectacular job at it. But if its all you have at hand it get the job done just fine.

[Spricigo]

2 minutes ago, MoridinUK said:

ER right, so I need relays to pass info on, and I can't use a directional on my probe to reach the relay? 

You can use your direct antennas to reach the relay. On the other hand none of the antennas in KSP are directional, they point in all directions without problem being able to communicate with any relay antenna in range (or directly at KSC if its in range).

 

For Mun/Minmus, if all I have are communutron 16 and HG-5, what I do get some satellite contract and spam a few relay with 1-2 HG-5, and use for the occasional lander probe (which will also have 1-2 HG-5), no need to place a 'proper network' in place, all I need itts signal when doing my maneuvers.

 

[HvP]

Hi, @MoridinUK.

There's a few basics about the comm net antenna system that it helps to understand. Your antenna network serves two main functions:

1. The antenna on your unmanned probes allows it to receive a remote control signal from the KSC. This is a signal going FROM Kerbin TO your probe.

2. The antenna on your manned or unmanned craft allows them to send science data back to the KSC. This is a signal going FROM your ship TO Kerbin.

ALL antennas can do BOTH 1 and 2 at all times (as long as those that need to be deployed are in their deployed state.)

Also, there are two types of antennas in the game: direct antennas and relay antennas. The direct antennas act as an end point only. They receive the remote control input from Kerbin that's directing an unpiloted probe they are attached to, and they also send science data out from the craft they are on back to Kerbin. It doesn't matter if this control input is coming from a relay, or Kerbin itself, nor does it matter if the science data it sends is being sent through a relay. All that matters is that there is an unbroken series of connections with Kerbin at one end*, and your direct antenna at the other. What direct antennas can NOT do is act as a middle point in the chain; which means that they can't pass along signals from any other craft (aside from its own) that are trying to talk to Kerbin. The relay antennas can do everything that the direct antennas can do PLUS they act like an extra link for any craft that can't "see" Kerbin if they might be on the far side of a moon or planet, or they are out of range due to their power. They pick up signals from other craft and pass them along to Kerbin, as well as pass along remote control input from Kerbin and pass it along to unpiloted probes. Remember, both direct and relay antennas are always doing both 1 and 2 from the above list at all times.

Do you have a ship with no pilot on board? Then you need an antenna, because it needs to receive remote control input from Kerbin. Do you have a ship with a pilot but want to transmit science? Then you need an antenna because the antenna beams the science data back to Kerbin. Do you have a ship with a pilot on board and want to bring all your science data back with you without transmitting it? Then you don't really need an antenna at all IF your pilot is inside a command pod or command chair. Pilots cannot control a craft from inside a passenger compartment.

The most confusing thing for new players trying to understand the new antenna system is that you have to consider the strength of BOTH antennas that will be communicating together. Think of it like shining a light across a distance. You can use a flashlight up close and still see it with your own eyes, but the further away it gets you might need binoculars, or a small telescope or a huge observatory if it's really far. But if the light is as bright as the sun then you can see it with your own eyes at many millions of kilometers away. Radio waves work exactly the same way. A big dish can "hear" a faint signal from far away, or a small antenna can "hear" a powerful signal from far away, but a faint signal is too dim to be heard by a small antenna at far enough distances.

Now the antennas back on Kerbin are almost always going to be the largest, most powerful link in the chain and they get bigger as you upgrade the tracking station. So, if you right click an antenna in the part menu of the VAB it will tell you how far away each antenna can be to communicate with the tracking station at different levels (tier 1, 2, 3) in millions (Mm) and billions (Gm) of meters. But what if you aren't talking directly to Kerbin and you need another antenna to pass the signal around the planet? This is where relays come in.

The HG-5 is the first relay antenna you have access to, and it is pretty weak, but it has some good uses. For example, they are far too weak to communicate with EACH OTHER if they are orbiting on opposite sides of Kerbin out past Minmus. BUT the large dishes at KSC are large enough and powerful enough to communicate with each of them individually. So? Have a small rover on the far side of Minmus with just a Communitron on it? Put a few satellites with HG-5 relays on them in low orbit of Minmus itself. They will be able to communicate with the small antenna on the rover when it is in their line of sight, and they can feed that signal to one of the other satellites in the same low orbit because the distance isn't very great. If one of those relay satellites is in view of Kerbin then the big sensitive dishes back on Kerbin's surface will then be able to communicate with the relatively weak antenna of the HG-5. The relay will also boost the signal it receives to match its own power level, no matter how small the source is.

In the above example, the light shining metaphor might help. The small antenna on the surface of Minmus is like a small flashlight shining onto a rather small reflector in orbit around Minmus that magnifies that light a little. The huge telescopic observatories back on Kerbin are large enough to resolve such a faint light at that distance, but if you were hanging out in keostationary orbit with nothing but a pair of binoculars you would have no hope of ever seeing it.

The main upshot is this: Small antennas need to stay close to each other if you need one of them to act like a relay. The further away you get then the bigger at least one of the antennas has to be. If you get even further away then you have to make BOTH of the antennas big.

* P.S. to add: There is a special case with remote probes being controlled by pilots on other ships instead of the KSC, but there are a lot of requirements that have to be met. This is called "Remote Pilot Assist" and you'll see that phrase in the specs for certain advanced probe cores. I won't get into that just yet so as not to confuse the issue.

Edited May 23, 2017 by HvP

[Spricigo]

22 minutes ago, HvP said:

Also, there are two types of antennas in the game: direct antennas and relay antennas. The direct antennas can only connect straight to Kerbin (but still receive remote control input, and will also send science data back to Kerbin.)

Correction: direct antennas can either talk straight to Kerbin or by means of relays. 

What direct antennas can't it's acting as the mid point of the chain. 

Given your rover examples you already,  but the wording in the part I quoted seems a bit ambiguous. 

 

[HvP]

50 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

Correction: direct antennas can either talk straight to Kerbin or by means of relays. 

What direct antennas can't it's acting as the mid point of the chain. 

Given your rover examples you already,  but the wording in the part I quoted seems a bit ambiguous. 

 

Yep, that's a goof on my part. I'll correct it. Thank you.

Edited May 23, 2017 by HvP

[MoridinUK]

Thanks both for the help.

I think it is the signal strength part that is confusing me! So the range of the Kerbin dish is important.  If my HG-5 is within Kerbin dishes' range, Kerbin can hear it? or does Kerbin's dish need to be within the HG-5 Range?

I'm trying to figure out what I need to stay in contact with Mun and Minmus. For some science probes and for a comm net around kerbin so I can transmit science and do all those evas for flying over the biomes or crew reports or which ever it is...  (or do they have to be in atmosphere)

I just don't want to go to do something and find I've wasted my time!  

Also, as I can't build planes I need to do some sat contracts or I'll get so bored... lol 

7 hours ago, HvP said:

Hi, @MoridinUK.

There's a few basics about the comm net antenna system that it helps to understand. Your antenna network serves two main functions:

1. The antenna on your unmanned probes allows it to receive a remote control signal from the KSC. This is a signal going FROM Kerbin TO your probe.

2. The antenna on your manned or unmanned craft allows them to send science data back to the KSC. This is a signal going FROM your ship TO Kerbin.

ALL antennas can do BOTH 1 and 2 at all times (as long as those that need to be deployed are in their deployed state.)

Also, there are two types of antennas in the game: direct antennas and relay antennas. The direct antennas act as an end point only. They receive the remote control input from Kerbin that's directing an unpiloted probe they are attached to, and they also send science data out from the craft they are on back to Kerbin. It doesn't matter if this control input is coming from a relay, or Kerbin itself, nor does it matter if the science data it sends is being sent through a relay. All that matters is that there is an unbroken series of connections with Kerbin at one end*, and your direct antenna at the other. What direct antennas can NOT do is act as a middle point in the chain; which means that they can't pass along signals from any other craft (aside from its own) that are trying to talk to Kerbin. The relay antennas can do everything that the direct antennas can do PLUS they act like an extra link for any craft that can't "see" Kerbin if they might be on the far side of a moon or planet, or they are out of range due to their power. They pick up signals from other craft and pass them along to Kerbin, as well as pass along remote control input from Kerbin and pass it along to unpiloted probes. Remember, both direct and relay antennas are always doing both 1 and 2 from the above list at all times.

Do you have a ship with no pilot on board? Then you need an antenna, because it needs to receive remote control input from Kerbin. Do you have a ship with a pilot but want to transmit science? Then you need an antenna because the antenna beams the science data back to Kerbin. Do you have a ship with a pilot on board and want to bring all your science data back with you without transmitting it? Then you don't really need an antenna at all IF your pilot is inside a command pod or command chair. Pilots cannot control a craft from inside a passenger compartment.

The most confusing thing for new players trying to understand the new antenna system is that you have to consider the strength of BOTH antennas that will be communicating together. Think of it like shining a light across a distance. You can use a flashlight up close and still see it with your own eyes, but the further away it gets you might need binoculars, or a small telescope or a huge observatory if it's really far. But if the light is as bright as the sun then you can see it with your own eyes at many millions of kilometers away. Radio waves work exactly the same way. A big dish can "hear" a faint signal from far away, or a small antenna can "hear" a powerful signal from far away, but a faint signal is too dim to be heard by a small antenna at far enough distances.

Now the antennas back on Kerbin are almost always going to be the largest, most powerful link in the chain and they get bigger as you upgrade the tracking station. So, if you right click an antenna in the part menu of the VAB it will tell you how far away each antenna can be to communicate with the tracking station at different levels (tier 1, 2, 3) in millions (Mm) and billions (Gm) of meters. But what if you aren't talking directly to Kerbin and you need another antenna to pass the signal around the planet? This is where relays come in.

The HG-5 is the first relay antenna you have access to, and it is pretty weak, but it has some good uses. For example, they are far too weak to communicate with EACH OTHER if they are orbiting on opposite sides of Kerbin out past Minmus. BUT the large dishes at KSC are large enough and powerful enough to communicate with each of them individually. So? Have a small rover on the far side of Minmus with just a Communitron on it? Put a few satellites with HG-5 relays on them in low orbit of Minmus itself. They will be able to communicate with the small antenna on the rover when it is in their line of sight, and they can feed that signal to one of the other satellites in the same low orbit because the distance isn't very great. If one of those relay satellites is in view of Kerbin then the big sensitive dishes back on Kerbin's surface will then be able to communicate with the relatively weak antenna of the HG-5. The relay will also boost the signal it receives to match its own power level, no matter how small the source is.

In the above example, the light shining metaphor might help. The small antenna on the surface of Minmus is like a small flashlight shining onto a rather small reflector in orbit around Minmus that magnifies that light a little. The huge telescopic observatories back on Kerbin are large enough to resolve such a faint light at that distance, but if you were hanging out in keostationary orbit with nothing but a pair of binoculars you would have no hope of ever seeing it.

The main upshot is this: Small antennas need to stay close to each other if you need one of them to act like a relay. The further away you get then the bigger at least one of the antennas has to be. If you get even further away then you have to make BOTH of the antennas big.

* P.S. to add: There is a special case with remote probes being controlled by pilots on other ships instead of the KSC, but there are a lot of requirements that have to be met. This is called "Remote Pilot Assist" and you'll see that phrase in the specs for certain advanced probe cores. I won't get into that just yet so as not to confuse the issue.

11

This is a really useful explanation if I've understood it right!

[HvP]

2 hours ago, MoridinUK said:

Thanks both for the help.

I think it is the signal strength part that is confusing me! So the range of the Kerbin dish is important.  If my HG-5 is within Kerbin dishes' range, Kerbin can hear it? or does Kerbin's dish need to be within the HG-5 Range?

I'm trying to figure out what I need to stay in contact with Mun and Minmus. For some science probes and for a comm net around kerbin so I can transmit science and do all those evas for flying over the biomes or crew reports or which ever it is...  (or do they have to be in atmosphere)

I just don't want to go to do something and find I've wasted my time!  

Also, as I can't build planes I need to do some sat contracts or I'll get so bored... lol 

This is a really useful explanation if I've understood it right!

It's the combination of the range of both antennas together that matters. Your HG-5 will be able to be communicate back and forth with Kerbin from just about anywhere around Kerbin or its moons, as long as the signal isn't blocked by the moon being in the way. Whether or not the HG-5 can communicate with another ship in order to relay a signal is a lot more complicated.

Don't feel bad, it's confusing for a lot of people because of what's called the "inverse square law." If you've heard of that term before you may remember it as one of the bedrock principles in physics. It's the reason that the intensity of broadcast energy propagating through space diminishes with distance. Light, sound, gravity, radio waves -- they all lose intensity as the signal spreads out from the source, expanding over an exponentially wider area the further and further out it goes. The intensity of the radiation is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.

Here's a link that you may find helpful CommNet Wiki. For now, only concern yourself with the numbers posted to the left of the antenna names in the topmost chart. 5k, 500k, 5M, 2G, 15G, and 100G. The "k" means thousands, "M" isn't meter (which would be lowercase) the uppercase "M" means millions, and the uppercase "G" means Giga, or billions. Those aren't distances exactly. What they indicate is the power of the relevant antenna. So, the command pods with no antenna have a power of 5,000; the communotron16 has a power of 500,000; the HG-5 has a power of 5,000,000; the DTS-M1 and the RA-2 both have a power of 2,000,000,000 and so on.

How can you use those numbers? Well, the maximum range of any two antennas depends on the inverse square law. For the case of any two antennas talking to each other you multiply together the power each antenna and then take the square root of that. The resulting answer is the maximum distance over which the two antennas can connect in meters. You'll want a calculator.

Did you notice that along the top of that chart it shows you the power rating of the KSP tracking station at different tier levels? At level 1 the Kerbin tracking station has a power of 2G or 2,000,000,000. If you want to find out at what distance the communotron16 can talk to the tier 1 tracking station then you take the power of the communotron16 (500,000) multiplied by the power of the tracking station (2,000,000,000) = 10^15 and take the square root which equals roughly  31,622,776 meters or 31.6 thousand kilometers.

If you want to find the maximum range between the antenna on a probe and a relay satellite then replace the values with the power ratings shown for those antennas in the info panel when you right click the part in the VAB. For example, the HG-5 has a power level of 5M. We know that means 5,000,000. That's three orders of magnitude weaker than the tier one tracking station. So their connection range should be a lot less. Let's try having a communotron16 sending a signal to an HG-5 relay satellite that then forwards that signal on to Kerbin with a tier 2 tracking station.

500,000 * 5,000,000 = 2,500,000,000,000 and the square root of that is roughly 1,581,139 meters or 1,581 kilometers. That's how close those two antennas will need to be to communicate. That gets you a signal from the surface of the Mun or Minmus to just about any satellite orbiting within their sphere of influence, but it won't reach a satellite much further away than that. Now will that HG-5 be able to relay the signal to the tier 2 (50G) tracking station?

5,000,000 * 50,000,000,000 = 2.5x10^17 and the square root is = 500,000,000 meters or 500,000 kilometers. You'd have to go interplanetary to lose the signal. So all together, the probe on the surface of Minmus with a communotron16 can send a signal to a relay satellite up to 1,581 kilometers away that has an HG-5 antenna on it. We know that the HG-5 in orbit of Minmus is well within the range of the Kerbin tracking station (500,000km) so we have a continuous link to and from Kerbin through our relay to the probe on the surface of Minmus with only one "hop" or relay needed.

Now none of this takes into account the STRENGTH of the signal but that only matters if you are concerned about getting a boost to your transmitted science points. I wouldn't worry about that for now since you will still get full control as long as you are within your maximum range. Just be aware that the lines on your map will fade and turn red when you start to get to the limit of your range.

I hope that's not all too much of an info dump for you. You know what I do? I put the biggest relay dish I can carry on my satellites and cross my fingers, haha.

P.S. you may have noticed something cheeky about the power ratings of those antennas. If you have two relay antennas of the SAME type that you need to talk to each other, how would you find out their range? If you multiply together the power of each antenna and then take the square root you just end up with the same number again. In other words, the power rating shown for each antenna is equal to the range of a connection between two of those same antennas. This only matters of course for relay antennas, since direct antennas can't talk to each other anyway.

Edited May 23, 2017 by HvP

[MoridinUK]

HG-5 is both direct and relay, so I could get more distance from my mun/minus sats if I put a HG-5 on the probe/pod rather than a comm 16 right?

Ok so distance they can talk, check and yes I remember the inverse square law once upon a time, a long LONG time ago I did a year of a four-year Masters of Physics course at the Uni of Leicester... I'm suspicious about it but there you go, (don't you think some of these physics laws tie up with our 'broken' integral mathematics rather neatly?)

[HvP]

2 hours ago, MoridinUK said:

HG-5 is both direct and relay, so I could get more distance from my mun/minus sats if I put a HG-5 on the probe/pod rather than a comm 16 right?

Ok so distance they can talk, check and yes I remember the inverse square law once upon a time, a long LONG time ago I did a year of a four-year Masters of Physics course at the Uni of Leicester... I'm suspicious about it but there you go, (don't you think some of these physics laws tie up with our 'broken' integral mathematics rather neatly?)

Yes, all relay antennas can do the job of a direct antenna as well. Two HG-5 antennas talking to each other will have a combined range of 5 million meters. A communotron16 trying to talk to an HG-5 will only have a range of only 1.5 million meters. Minmus and the Mun each have a sphere of influence that is around 2.5 million meters. And Kerbin has a sphere of influence that extends out to 84 million meters.

So, a communitron16 + HG-5 pair will be able to communicate within all low orbits of the Mun or Minmus. You have to consider that the distance at which they need to connect won't be limited to just straight up. The satellite may be several degrees to the east or west adding significantly to the distance the signal has to travel. A HG-5 talking to another HG-5 in orbit of the Mun or Minmus is a much more reliable combination. But it's really only a stopgap until you can research bigger relay antennas at higher tech levels. Remember that with a range of 5Mm an HG-5 in orbit of the Mun won't even have enough power to talk to another HG-5 in low orbit around Kerbin. You're relying on your Kerbin ground stations to resolve the signal instead.

As far as the legitimacy of the inverse square law, I always thought it seemed rather straightforward. As a sphere of energy expands the surface area of that sphere increases with the square of the radius, thereby diluting the energy across the wider area. A sphere with a radius 2 times longer than before has a surface area that is 2^2 or 4 times greater. A sphere with a radius 3 times longer has a surface area that is 3^2 or 9 times greater, a radius of 4 is 4^2 or 16 times the surface area, etc... Yes, integrals do seem like an awful kludge though. Infinitesimal values are not particularly comprehensible in a satisfying way. Nevertheless, much like we don't need Zeno to tell us that you can indeed cross an infinitely divided space in finite time, we can define a finite area that is infinitely divisible.

Edited May 23, 2017 by HvP

[archnem]

I don't understand everyone badmouthing the HG-5.  I make a few com sats with a few of these on them, they work perfectly for what they're supposed to be - an early game antenna for comms to Mun/Minmus.  They're very light, and they work great for what they're designed to do.

[Spricigo]

5 minutes ago, archnem said:

I don't understand everyone badmouthing the HG-5.  I make a few com sats with a few of these on them, they work perfectly for what they're supposed to be - an early game antenna for comms to Mun/Minmus.  They're very light, and they work great for what they're designed to do.

Well, the purpose of the HG-5 its even more extensive than this. If you have a 2 of stronger relays in orbit of a planet/celestial bodies, the HG-5 fill most gaps left.

The 'problem' its that if a stronger relay is available bringing those instead is trivially more difficult. And people being lazy*...

 

*me included

[MoridinUK]

2 hours ago, HvP said:

As far as the legitimacy of the inverse square law, I always thought it seemed rather straightforward. As a sphere of energy expands the surface area of that sphere increases with the square of the radius, thereby diluting the energy across the wider area. A sphere with a radius 2 times longer than before has a surface area that is 2^2 or 4 times greater. A sphere with a radius 3 times longer has a surface area that is 3^2 or 9 times greater, a radius of 4 is 4^2 or 16 times the surface area, etc... Yes, integrals do seem like an awful kludge though. Infinitesimal values are not particularly comprehensible in a satisfying way. Nevertheless, much like we don't need Zeno to tell us that you can indeed cross an infinitely divided space in finite time, we can define a finite area that is infinitely divisible.

I meant only the symmetry of it all, makes it feel too simple...   I'm aware that as a square is involved in the surface area of sphere that a square makes sense in describing the way energy dissipates as that area increases... It's just the perfect symmetry of it... I'm not sure what I'm trying to describe... 

Thanks for the advice, I think a little more science around Kerbin, I wish I did not have a badlands "splashed down" requirement... I landed from orbit within 10k of it first try but I'm never gonna hit one of them tiny lakes from orbit!...

 

[bewing]

Not unless you start putting aerodyanmic surfaces on your RVs. Once you do, you will be able to land within a hundred meters of any target you like.

[Spricigo]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

Not unless you start putting aerodyanmic surfaces on your RVs. Once you do, you will be able to land within a hundred meters of any target you like.

Better yet, a good glider willl allow to land exactly at the target. Granted it takes a considerable amount of practice, to fly and to design.

[MoridinUK]

I can't even get a powered plane to work!!! No glider!  Wouldn't wings get ripped off or burnt off in re-entry if I shoved them on the edge of my mk1 and service bay?

 

[bewing]

Nope. The G forces are relatively low, and the wing parts are generally built with very high heat tolerances.

 

[MoridinUK]

Hmm... I've got a lot better at hitting the right spot now I've learnt how to use a target in the trajectories mod!  But version 1.2.2 just hit my steam so I will have to wait/potter about until the mods will work!  sigh..

 

[bewing]

Should be soon, I think. Not nearly as many changes to the API as in 1.2, for example.