FreeThinker

[1.7.3/1.6.1/1.5.1/1.4.5/1.3.1] KSP Interstellar Extended 1.23.1 Continued Development Thread

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I've got a simple question about the mod,does it come with relay-attenae that have a range long enough for two solar-systems to be connected?

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14 minutes ago, RobinVerhulstZ said:

I've got a simple question about the mod,does it come with relay-attenae that have a range long enough for two solar-systems to be connected?

Not sure, but the 100m dish has a transmitter power of 1.0e+14, not sure if that enough to reach the next star system

Edited by FreeThinker

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5 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Not sure, but the 100m dish has a transmitter power of 1.0e+14, not sure if that enough to reach the next star system

Would be difficult to make the transmitters stackable similar to the stock antennae?

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Version 1.11.2 for Kerbal Space Program 1.2.1

Released on 2016-11-20

  • Added Ablative Laser Nozzle which uses PolyvinylChloride as propellant (texture by SilverSilver)
  • Added Radiator Upgrade placeholder at Nanoleathing technode
  • Balance: Free Electron Laser can now generate laser beams in all available transmit wavelengths
  • Balance Extended Laser Diode possible beam generator wavelength but it can now only be configured in the VAB
  • Balance Microwave beamed power now receives aperture bonus instead of non Microwave

 

 

Edited by FreeThinker

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2 hours ago, Nansuchao said:

Would be difficult to make the transmitters stackable similar to the stock antennae?

Shouldn't be difficult at all, it just takes setting some values in the antenna part module. Code's already in the stock game (for stock relay antennas).

I think that any KSPI antenna that can relay power should be a communications relay antenna as well.
Additionally, any KSPI antenna that can only transmit should be a transmit-only antenna.
However, the microwave thermal power receivers should not be communications antennas, as they're basically a "dumb" block of material (that happens to be good at absorbing beamed power).

The reason for this is that RF and optical communication is just power modulated in a way that conveys information to an appropriately configured receiver. "Modulation" is just "making a specific change to a signal" so the most basic modulator is an On-Off switch. This allows you to communicate via Morse Code. AM, FM, and more sophisticated modulation schemes merely increase the rate at which you can transmit data (aka Bandwidth).

 

 

Speaking of beamed power stuff, I think there should be a readout for received beam spot size on any antenna that is receiving or relaying power.

This would help players match which wavelengths and antennas they use versus what range they're trying to transmit to.

IMO antennas should always be the biggest you can get away with.
However, you can save a lot of mass if you know you're not going to be using the transmitter beyond a certain range (eg. sending power from LKO to Minmus).
Additionally, to minimize losses you want to use the wavelength with the lowest overall losses (usually means long wavelengths unless going thru atmosphere or water).

Considering both of these factors may mean that there are two solutions, one which minimizes system mass and one which minimizes system power losses.

If you're relaying power around Minmus, microwave relays are a good idea. If you're relaying power around Jool and it's moons, you're probably going to want to use a visible light wavelength if you're sending power out to Bop and Pol, and you're going to want to choose a wavelength that has low atmospheric and/or water attenuation if you are sending power to the surface of Laythe, Eve, or Kerbin. Duna's atmosphere should be thin enough that it doesn't make a big enough difference to worry about.

If you need to send power interplanetary, I'd say choose a short UV wavelength and just be prepared to eat the low power-to-beam efficiencies. This means you'll just need to put a lot more power into the transmitter end of the system, and for that I'd suggest launching multiple large Stellerators or Quantum Singularity Reactors. These reactors don't have to be all on the same ship, but they each need a beam generator and antenna, and they all need to be set to the same wavelength.

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2 minutes ago, SciMan said:

Shouldn't be difficult at all, it just takes setting some values in the antenna part module. Code's already in the stock game (for stock relay antennas).

Well perhaps you could provide me with an example

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35 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Well perhaps you could provide me with an example

Ok, here's the part module for the data transmitter of the stock RA-100 Relay antenna (used for an example):

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleDataTransmitter
        antennaType = RELAY
        packetInterval = 0.35
        packetSize = 4
        packetResourceCost = 24.0
        requiredResource = ElectricCharge
        antennaPower = 100000000000
        antennaCombinable = True
    }
	
Edited by SciMan

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39 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

@SciMan is it antannaCombinible?

 

Correct, "antennaCombinable = True" is the setting that lets antennas on the same craft stack their ranges.

Setting antennaCombinable to False is only used for the internal antenna inside all stock command pods and probe cores.
IMO this is done because those antennas are "receive only" (as they can't transmit science, governed by another setting described below).

 

The 2nd interesting setting is "antennaType". This can be set to "INTERNAL", "DIRECT", or "RELAY".

INTERNAL means that the antenna can receive command signals from KSC or another vessel, but it will be unable to transmit science or act as a relay.
This setting is used for the internal antenna inside stock command pods and probe cores, again because they're "receive only".

DIRECT means that the antenna can receive command signals from KSC or another vessel, and it can transmit science data, but it is unable to act as a relay.
The Communotron 16, 16-S, DTS-M1, HG-55, and 88-88 all use this setting.

RELAY means that the antenna can receive command signals from KSC or another vessel, can transmit science data, and can act as a relay.
The HG-5, RA-2, RA-15, and RA-100 all use this setting.

 

The last setting of interest to KSPI is "antennaPower". This sets the range of the antenna, in meters.

 

The rest are the basic antenna settings:

packetInterval sets the time between data packets, in seconds (smaller number = sends packets more often).

packetSize sets how many Mits of science data are sent in each data packet (bigger number = sends more data per packet).

packetResourceCost sets how many units of "requiredResource" are consumed to transmit each data packet (bigger number = uses more power).

requiredResource sets which resource is consumed by the antenna while transmitting. I strongly suggest keeping this set to ElectricCharge.

 

I had mostly the same thing already typed out above, but when I hit post it didn't go thru for some reason.
Hopefully this is a much more complete explanation than the one I posted previously.

Edited by SciMan

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NwUv1Cg.jpg

Apparently Deuter - Lithium6 is best mode for energy production.

Proton - Lithium7 is better if you want aneutronic fusion - but it has lower energy production - 266 GW for 10m Stellatron.

Not only it is nearly baseline energy production, it is 100% charged particles too!

Its set in far infrared mode currently. Is that how you make orbital powerplants?

And what is use for tiny aperture transmitters?

 

Edited by raxo2222

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@SciMan Could you figure out a good config setting for a powerful dish transmitter , one that is capable to transmitting home from any star system in galactic neighborhood. Specifically what packagsize, interval page and how much power would it need?

37 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

And what is use for tiny aperture transmitters?

Well  they  relativity, small, light and have build in diode array (which must be configured in the VAB). They are mend for mission vessels. they are very useful for transferring power to landers, bases or rovers on the surface while the mothership stays in orbit. The powerfull dishes are mend for dedicated onger range beamed power, preferably around kerbin first

Edited by FreeThinker

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45 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

NwUv1Cg.jpg

Its set in far infrared mode currently. Is that how you make orbital powerplants?

The best wavelength depends on the distance to target and receiver wavelength capability and aperture. Also if you need to send through the atmosphere it depend on atmospheric absorption and water vapor absorption (which depends on climate)

Edited by FreeThinker

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Why my fusion powered airplane keep fainting?

I'm producing 10 MW of electricity (0.7m molten salt reactor on thorium mode),  while fusion reactor (1.25m MTF on DT mode) needs 4 MW to run.

http://imgur.com/a/29h42

Here's craft: https://ufile.io/07016

Edit: It appears like molten salt is trying to power thermal turbojet wasting its thermal energy...

Edit:

Okay I threw away cargobay with molten salt reactor and attached thermal generator to fusion reactor.

Air from precoolers has to pass trough it, but since only 3% of total produced energy is needed to sustain fusion, it shouldn't be problem.

Also craft is now only 100 kg heavier - now it weights exactly 7 tons.

It has enough Lithium and Deuterium to fly for 2 years. Tritium is produced on the fly from lithium.

17 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

The best wavelength depends on the distance to target and receiver capability. Also if you need to send through the atmosphere it depend on atmospheric absorption and water vapor absorption (which depends on climate)

Here I meant if its properly built as long term stationary powerplant (for example on Moon targeting geostationary relay satellites)

Edited by raxo2222

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2 hours ago, SciMan said:

-snip-

I'm sorry, you misunderstood. My question was if it was possible to put more transmitter on the same ship to reach greater distances with the power beamed, in a system analogue to the stock antenna one.

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12 minutes ago, Nansuchao said:

I'm sorry, you misunderstood. My question was if it was possible to put more transmitter on the same ship to reach greater distances with the power beamed, in a system analogue to the stock antenna one.

Ah, to answer you question, yes,the aperture does stack.

Edited by FreeThinker

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1 minute ago, FreeThinker said:

Ah, to answer you question, yes,the aperture does stacks.

Thanks, great!

I'm slowly reaching a point in my save when I can begin to think about the beam power system and for safety reason of the interplanetary manned mission, usually I launch dozens of beam transmitter all around the solar system to have some energy everywhere.

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On 11/17/2016 at 11:44 AM, FreeThinker said:

At least with thermal launch nozzle, ramjet nozzle and thermal turbojet, max Isp it limited to 3000s (which is actually realy high)  To get higher Isp from thermal power you need to use the plasma nozzle, which will even work in the atmosphere when connected with the antimatter reactor. The Ramjet is mend for high speed atmospheric operation, in the upper atmosphere  It Isp will actually be higher than in the lower atmosphere where the turbojet will perform better.

The main justification comes from the Atomic rocket Antimattrer engine list

Observations:
1. Yes, the plasma nozzle + antimatter reactor "works" in atmosphere, but provides so little thrust as to not be useful.  Not a problem, I've got a good design now that incorporates the regular thermal engines for atmosphere + a plasma nozzle for vacuum which gives me the 45k dV after circularizing at LKO that I was looking for.
2. The phenomenon I described earlier where the thermal ramjet and the thermal turbojet are almost exactly the same; this is only true if you tweakscale each to 3.75m.  at 2.5m they behave more like what you designed them to behave like and what makes sense.  At 3.75m the thermal ramjet produces a ton of stationary thrust and is enough to take off and burn at 7G all the way to orbit, without any helpers.  And that's on a 300-500 ton craft.  At 2.5m you get the "ramjet needs some airspeed to be useful" effect that you're intending.  This was all somewhat true in the pre-1.2.x version as well, but the "3.75m-is-overpowered" effect seems to be more pronounced now.
3. The first-unlocked nuclear ramjet operates MUCH more like how you'd expect a ramjet to operate; You need some detachable SRBs to accelerate fast enough for this thing to be useful... or some regular jets.. but that's how it's supposed to work.   I guess I was just expecting more of the "ramjet effect" with a 3.75m thermal ramjet, than I'm getting... at least compared to the other parts :)
 

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26 minutes ago, Nansuchao said:

Thanks, great!

I'm slowly reaching a point in my save when I can begin to think about the beam power system and for safety reason of the interplanetary manned mission, usually I launch dozens of beam transmitter all around the solar system to have some energy everywhere.

To put it little more into more context, every vessel gets an effective transmitter aperture which is calculated the following way

vesselTransmitters.Aperture = transmitters.Average(m => m.aperture) * Math.Sqrt(transmitters.Count)

this effectively means you need 4 transmitters of the same size to double the effective transmitter aperture

Edited by FreeThinker

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3 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

@SciMan Could you figure out a good config setting for a powerful dish transmitter , one that is capable to transmitting home from any star system in galactic neighborhood. Specifically what packagsize, interval page and how much power would it need?

The values for "packetSize" and "packetInterval" only control how fast science data is transmitted to KSC, not how far. In other words, it's the "upload speed" of the antenna, not the range.

I think the stock Communotron 88-88 is a good part to take the values for these two variables from. It's a high-bandwidth antenna, so it's capable of high speed data transmission.

For power consumption, I'd say it should consume 100x of the Communotron 88-88, because the distances are absolutely massive.

However, this puts the Ec/s rating of the proposed stats at 20k per second, so I guess we should switch it to 2 MegaJoules per packet instead of 20 ElectricCharge per packet.

In summary, here's the important bits of an antenna that would IMO be interstellar capable, in the form of a PartModule that is only missing the Range value (I saw on the Galactic Neighborhood thread that you asked about how to figure out ranges there):

	    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleDataTransmitter
        antennaType = RELAY
        packetInterval = 0.10
        packetSize = 2
        packetResourceCost = 2.0
        requiredResource = MegaJoules
        antennaPower = ???????????
        antennaCombinable = True
    }
	

EDIT: IMO, the best path would have 3 "hops".

  1. Small probe in a distant star system => Interstellar Relay Satellite orbiting the same star as the probe (with an interstellar relay dish on it)
  2. Interstellar Relay Satellite around distant star => Interstellar Relay Satellite around Kerbol (star that Kerbin is orbiting)
  3. Interstellar Relay Satellite around Kerbol => KSC

In other words, the relay capabilities of these dishes would be their main benefit (as far as communications is concerned, anyways).

I think this is "best" because relaying between high-range antennas gives the highest "signal" value for any transmission, at least if I understand the way KSP antennas work as well as I think I do.

Edited by SciMan

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Bug report

  • AVC reports that KSPI 1.11.2 was built for KSP 1.2.2.
  • High Efficiency Nuclear Propulsion research node has two entries for the thermal ramjet nozzle.

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Hi, as usual I don´t even know if this is the right place for these, but here we go.

I have been having problems with all RCS from interstellar since 1.2. then after I installed Spacey, I also had problems with their RCSs. I started looking into the problem and figured out that if I removed RCSsounds, the crashes stopped. so, it was not Interstellar per se, but a bundled mod that was crashing my game. I dont know if other people have this problem, but that was my easy fix.

 

some small thing I have realized while messing around with KSPI 1.11.1

the antimatter collector multiplier, does not multiply. I mean, I suppose that larger collectors should collect more, and I assume the multiplier should reflect that. well, it doesn't. a 1.25m and a 7.5 meter collect the same amount of AM.

 

one thing that is not bug related but I have come to realize by using it, and it makes perfect sense. there is some distance decay when using Microwave at least. (i did not know that, it´s not documented, but I should have thought of it)

I made my beautiful antimatter microwave reactor in an optimal jool orbit to collect AM and basically be an eternal power source. then I figured out I get almost nothing beamed up to kerbin. I mean, I generate 45GW, beam some 36GW, and only get around 100MW in kerbin. 

what would be a solution for that? maybe using UV instead?

 

cheers.

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@SciMan what about the following configuration. For overview I also included the stock dishes for comparison:

Name Type Interval PacketSize Resource Cost antennaPower Combinable
Communotron 16 DIRECT 0.6 2 12 EC 5.0e+5 True
HG-5 High Gain Antenna RELAY 0.35 2 18 EC 5.0e+6 True
RA-2 Relay Antenna RELAY 0.35 1 24 EC 2.0e+9 True
RA-15 Relay Antenna RELAY 0.35 2 24 EC 1.5e+10 True
RA-100 Relay Antenna RELAY 0.35 4 24 EC 1.0e+11 True
Communotron DTSM1 DIRECT 0.35 2 12 EC 2.0e+9 True
Communotron HG-55 DIRECT 0.15 3 20 EC 1.5e+10 True
Communotron 88-88 DIRECT 0.1   20 EC 1.0e+11 True
             
Microwave Phased Array Transceiver RELAY 0.1 1 20 EC 1.0e+11 True
Deployable Microwave Phased Array Relay Recieverer RELAY 0.1 1 100 EC 5.0e+11 True
Radial  Thermal Dish Receiver DIRECT 0.1 1 100 EC 1.0e+12 True
Folding Thermal Dish Receiver Gold DIRECT 0.1 1 100 EC 1.0e+12 True
Multi Bandwidth Rectenna Dish Transceiver (10m) RELAY 0.1 1 0.5 MJ 1.0e+13 True
Multi Bandwidth Rectenna Dish Transceiver (20m) RELAY 0.1 1 2.0 MJ 5.0e+13 True
Oersized Microwave Infrared Thermal Receiverer DIRECT 0.1 1 4.0 MJ 1.0e+14 False
Edited by FreeThinker

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18 hours ago, singlet said:

Bug report

  • AVC reports that KSPI 1.11.2 was built for KSP 1.2.2.
  • High Efficiency Nuclear Propulsion research node has two entries for the thermal ramjet nozzle.

There is a problem with the version file, but it's not the same one that you describe.

The problem is that the version file was not updated for the latest release, so AVC still thinks KSPI is 1.11.1 even if you installed KSPI 1.11.2.

The "bug" itself is solely with the version file, not with KSPI itself.
If the version file is not updated for every version change, you get "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

With KSP somewhat recently updating to 1.2.1, I've been dealing with a lot of this kind of problem.

Here's the problem in the KSPI Version file (at GameData/WarpPlugin/Plugins/KSP-Interstellar-Extended.version):

    "VERSION":
    {
        "MAJOR":1,
        "MINOR":11,
        "PATCH":1,  // << This number should not be "1" if it's KSPI 1.11.2!
        "BUILD":0
    },
    "KSP_VERSION":
    {
        "MAJOR":1,
        "MINOR":2,
        "PATCH":1
    }

Here's the same section, with my correction:

    "VERSION":
    {
        "MAJOR":1,
        "MINOR":11,
        "PATCH":2,
        "BUILD":0
    },
    "KSP_VERSION":
    {
        "MAJOR":1,
        "MINOR":2,
        "PATCH":1
    }

Changing that single number should make AVC quit going nuts about nothing.

Regarding the "two entries for the thermal ramjet nozzle", I expect that's because the Ablative Laser Nozzle is still incorrectly titled "Thermal Ramjet Nozzle" despite being an entirely different part.

I think the solution is to just change the part's "title =" block to "Ablative Laser Nozzle", that should fix things.



@FreeThinker

Regarding the antenna stuff, all the stats look fine as far as range, energy draw, and transmission speed, but the other settings need some work, and some antennas shouldn't have any data communications module at all:

Firstly:

All KSPI antennas with a data transmitter part module should have "antennaCombinable =" set to TRUE.

As noted previously, this setting is only "FALSE" inside the part configs of command pods and probe cores. This is because the antenna that is built in to command pod and probe core parts (it's part of their config) CAN NOT TRANSMIT.
It can only receive a control signal from KSC (or a manned craft with the appropriate parts).
Just so we're clear, I'm talking about the antenna that you are using if you don't ever put any antennas on your craft.

The laws of physics state that if an antenna can be combined with others for power transmission, it can be combined with others for communication as well. An antenna only acts based on Power and Frequency, not "Information content".

Basically:

  • A "power AND data" antenna will factor in to both power AND data transmission calculations.
  • A "data only" antenna won't factor in to power transmission calculations (can't transmit/relay data).
  • A "power only" antenna won't factor in to data transmission calculations (can't transmit/relay power).

 

 

Secondly (with 3 sub-parts):

The choices for which parts are "RELAY" antennas and which parts are "DIRECT" antennas are a bit messed up in places.

Since the table in your post was rather limited in scope, I'll just rebuild the entire thing from scratch (but only for this one stat):

 

Only antennas that can transmit AND receive power should be set to "RELAY".
By this criteria, these parts should be "Relay" antennas:

  • "Multi Bandwidth Rectenna Dish Transceiver (Large)" (part name "FELA")
  • "Multi Bandwidth Rectenna Dish Transceiver (Large)" (part name "BT2502")
  • "Deployable Microwave Phased Array Relay Recieverer" (part name "KspiPhasedArray1") // really should be "transceiver"
  • "Microwave Phased Array Transceiver" (part name "KspiMicrowaveArray")

Parts which can only transmit should be set to DIRECT.
By this criteria, these parts should be "Transmit Only" antennas:

  • "Shielded Diode Laser Beam Transmitter" (part name "BT2501")
  • "DT-L-IR-1 Laser Beam Transmitter" (part name "Laser_IR")
  • "Diode Infrared Beamed Power Laser" (part name "LaserTransmitter")
  • "Microwave Transducer DT-MW-TD-32x" (part name "MicroWaveTransducer2")

Parts which can only receive should not have a moduleDataTransmitter at all.
By this criteria, these antenna parts should not have any data transmitter part module:

 

Spoiler
  • "Radial Thermal Dish Receiver" (part name " ")
  • "Folding Thermal Dish Receiver Gold" (part name "FoldingThermalDish")
  • "Oversized Microwave Infrared Thermal Receiver" (part name " ")
  • "Circular Rectenna Receiver" (part name "CircularRectennaReceiver")
  • "Circular Solar Photovoltaic Cells" (part name "CircularSolarPhotovoltaicReceiver")
  • "Circular Thermophotovoltaic Receivers" (part name "CircularThermophotovoltaicReceiver")
  • "Duel Mode Thermal/Rectenna Receiver (Inline)" (part name "KspiInlinePhasedArray") // should be "Dual mode..."
  • "Microwave Infrared Rectenna (Receiver)" (part name "DeployableMicrowaveInfraredRectenna")
  • "Shielded Multi Bandwidth Rectenna" (part name "MicrowaveRectenna2")
  • "Microwave Thermal Receiver" (part name "microwaveThermalEnergyReceiverM")
  • "MTPRmk2" (part name "MicrowaveThermalRecieverMk2")
  • "Oversized Aluminium Thermal Dish Receiver (Inline)" (part name "OversizedAluminiumThermalReceiverDish")
  • "Oversized Aluminium Thermal Dish Receiver (Head)" (part name "OversizedAluminiumThermalReceiverDishEnd")
  • "Oversized Gold Thermal Dish Receiver (Inline)" (part name "KspieSIGINT")
  • "Oversized Gold Thermal Dish Receiverer (Head)" (part name "KspieSIGINT.End")
  • "Pivoted Infrared Mirror" (part name "PivotedInfraredMirror")
  • "Pivoted Light Mirror" (part name "PivotedLightMirror")
  • "Folded Radial Rectenna Receiver" (part name "MicroWaveR_Radial")
  • "Radial Gold Thermal Dish Reciever" (part name "ThermalReceiverDish") // should be "... Receiver"
  • "Radial Aluminium Thermal Dish Receiver" (part name "RadialAluminiumThermalDish")
  • "Duel Mode Thermal Sphere Receiver" (part name "microwaveSphereReceiver") // should be "Dual mode..."
  • "Duel Mode Thermal/Rectenna Receiver (Nose)" (part name "KspiSpherePhasedArray") // should be "Dual mode..."
  • "Duel Mode Wrapped Thermal Reciever" (part name "MW_Thermal_R_I_D") // should be "Dual mode..."

The end result of all 3 of these criteria is that there are only 8 power antennas in KSPI that should be able to transmit science data.

Of those, 4 should be set to RELAY, and 4 should be set to DIRECT.

ANY other antenna part in KSPI should not have any sort of data transmitter module on it at all. This is because it can't put out any kind of signal.
No output signal = no transmitter = no data transmitter module.

Edited by SciMan
avoiding double-posting

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