Squad- Please "Chop this wood"

[Jengaleng]

4 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

The game was sold to people with a set of minimum specifications to run it, they can't very well up those minimum specs after selling it to so many. Much as I would love to see stock KSP updated to modern graphic standards I suspect it won't happen short of a KSP 2 release with new minimums.

As for adding mods in general: Sometimes it can be good, others it's better to reimplement as the Squad devs have source access and presumably better access to doing things that modders have to deduce or workaround. I don't think you'll find consensus about which mods should be (re)implemented as tastes differ, but honestly that matters little as Squad's gonna do what Squad's gonna do, it's not a democracy.

For my two cents: I'd like to see KER, KAC, Stock Revamp and some sort of life support mod (re)implemented.

Would it? I imagined extra options in the graphics setttings thus leaving the minimum reqs the same.

I don't see a reason that they would have to re-label their min specs and most games come with a min and a recommended req.

Anyway, it's clear this topic wasn't wise. It seems it's been covered and beaten to death but I think there's a reason why it keeps coming up. 

I agree that none of us will agree.  

1 minute ago, linuxgurugamer said:

While CKAN isn't perfect, I'm running a game with 220 mods installed by CKAN.  So much better than doing all those by hand

That's incredible, I've only ever gotten to about 100 before experiencing constant issues. My computer far surpasses the spec's needed so I can rule that out. 

You can't possible install 200 mods without crashing, although you have the special ability to read those output logs and solve the issue, I don't. 

[Red Iron Crown]

Just now, Jengaleng said:

Would it? I imagined extra options in the graphics setttings thus leaving the minimum reqs the same.

Maybe. I was more addressing the quoted portion of your post, which was:

Quote

We can't cater to people who choose not to update their computer into the current day standards, it's your fault you own a potato not the games.

They have a bit of an obligation to cater to those people, a moral one at least.

[linuxgurugamer]

The install I refer to is what I'm using when streaming. 

No crashes.

I have lots of memory and gpu, which helps

[Jengaleng]

8 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Maybe. I was more addressing the quoted portion of your post, which was:

They have a bit of an obligation to cater to those people, a moral one at least.

Can I just ask why people with lower spec'd computers would feel abandoned if squad did spruce up the graphics as an option? 

Many games with similar starting dates and graphical spec's have updated their game engines to support better graphics and they did just that. It didn't leave out the lower spec'd playerbase at all, it just gave people an option to raise their settings for a more appealing view. 

I could be very wrong, but I think that the visual enhancement mods are what take the most resources to run, it would be a big relief to those of us that do use those visual mods if it were simply an option in the graphic settings to make it so and maybe a relief to those with lower spec pcs that can't run the visual mods but might be able to raise their settings to the same level if it were stock.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Jengaleng

[linuxgurugamer]

5 minutes ago, Jengaleng said:

Can I just ask why people with lower spec'd computers would feel abandoned if squad did spruce up the graphics as an option?

Because of the way the game is written, everything gets loaded, whether it is used or not\

There would be a lot of work to change that

[Jengaleng]

45 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Because of the way the game is written, everything gets loaded, whether it is used or not\

There would be a lot of work to change that

I didn't know this, and it slightly changes my opinion on the matter. That explains a lot. 

[Casualnaut]

20 hours ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

(https://www.twitch.tv/ej_sa)

Thanks dude! This guy is basically a daily source of new ideas for stock KSP. Especially with console KSP.

[KerBlitz Kerman]

Really?

[TheRagingIrishman]

45 minutes ago, Casualnaut said:

Thanks dude! This guy is basically a daily source of new ideas for stock KSP. Especially with console KSP.

Ya I love EJ. I also live about 10 min away from him (fun fact: I can eat a burger faster than him). I'm fairly active in chat so feel free to say hi 

[AlamoVampire]

17 hours ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

Try going back to version 1.0.0 (The one I recently updated from). Look at what we have now. Inflatable heat shields. A new Mk1 cockpit. New drills and ISRUs. New probe cores and communication dishes. Version 1.0.0 was the 'lack of parts' version.

While we have great stuff in 1.2.2 (last version i played, still not updated yet) the learjet style mk1 cockpit is in MY opinion not one of them. Why we could not have both beggars my belief. But I will say it again: before mods get integrated, before new parts and honestly before the DLC imho they need/should have done a unified beauty pass using porkjets work or their own to codify this game.

but ill say this kis/kas AND mechjeb should be made stock. My 2¢ ofc.

time 21:00:05

[vger]

9 hours ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

The way KSP works currently (and it would take a ton of work from Squad to change this due to Unity) is that all textures and models are loaded into the game regardless of settings which means that even if you turned the clouds off, the massive files that make up good cloud mods will still be loaded into RAM causing problems for people with not good computers

This is a very minor problem. Texture modding is a ridiculously simple thing to do, and if the devs wanted to (it might already be this way actually), they could make the game load alternate textures right from a duplicate asset structure in the game's root folder, a thing that some mod-supported games have done since the 90's. A jpeg today is a jpeg tomorrow, and no "reduced sun intensity by 0.02%" patch is going to magically break that.

Edited June 13, 2017 by vger

[Alshain]

9 hours ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

The way KSP works currently (and it would take a ton of work from Squad to change this due to Unity) is that all textures and models are loaded into the game regardless of settings which means that even if you turned the clouds off, the massive files that make up good cloud mods will still be loaded into RAM causing problems for people with not good computers

I don't know who told you that, but textures do not have to be loaded at a startup in Unity.  In fact loading them in code based on a condition is quite easy.  Squad currently parses through the GameData folder and loads everything, BUT they already have certain paths that are excluded from being loaded by the game at startup (PluginData for example) and a new one for cloud textures wouldn't be that difficult to create, and none of that has anything to do with Unity's decisions.  It's all Squad.  Worst case scenario, turning the graphic setting on or off would require a restart of the game to load/unload them.  However there is no extra special "ton of work" that would be involved in stopping textures from being loaded.  All the rest of the stuff involved in making clouds and such, yes that's quite a bit of work, but so is anything they implement.   PlanetShine doesn't even use textures, that's light sources.  I don't think DOE has any significant textures either.

 

Now, I do agree the Minimum System Specs are set in stone.  You can't sell a game to someone and then patch it so they can't play it afterward.  However these kinds of things do not have to change the minimum specs at all.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Alshain

[cfds]

On 12.6.2017 at 4:42 AM, HebaruSan said:

1.2 added CommNet, something formerly done by a mod

With the slight difference that the mod actually made sense...

On 12.6.2017 at 4:42 AM, HebaruSan said:

1.0 overhauled the aerodynamics and added re-entry heating, procedural fairings, and ISRU, all formerly things done by mods

I give you ISRU since it carried over all the functionality of the mod, but calling SQUAD's aerodynamics and fairings "things formerly done by mods" is bordering on an insult to ferram and e-dog. Concerning re-entry: Wasn't that the version where a Mk1 capsule with a parachute could not re-enter safely from a low orbit?

SQUAD may sometimes try to duplicate mod features, but they usually fail.

[Chel]

On ‎12‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 9:18 AM, Jengaleng said:

You squad, have done nothing to push this game into the future

*cough*...0.25 Spaceplane Plus...*cough*...Eeloo...*cough*...Asteroid Day...*cough*...RemoteTech into CommNet...*cough*.

We can enjoy the ever useful Mk2 parts, thanks to Spaceplane Plus integration into the stock game. Eeloo, if you didn't know already, was added to the game as a Christmas gift by SQUAD. Asteroid Day, adapted from the Asteroid Day mod, is how we have the HECS 2. RemoteTech was integrated into the game in 1.2, as CommNet. SQUAD has done many things to push the game into the future. Why don't you actually appreciate what we have, instead of just ranting about what you want. I suggest that this post be moved to the Mods in stock suggestion thread, as that is where this type of post should belong (with your permission of course, to move it to there by one of the moderators).

 

3 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

Why we could not have both

You don't say!

[Chel]

7 hours ago, Jengaleng said:

We can't cater to people who choose not to update their computer into the current day standards, it's your fault you own a potato not the games. 

The average desktop over here (Australia), costs around $2000. That's only the average one. Low end ones, $1700, maybe $1500 for a preowned one if you're lucky. Most laptops aren't gaming laptops, and gaming laptops are also expensive over here. I play KSP on a HP ProBook, a laptop meant for Powerpoints, Word documents, and Excel spreadsheets, not fully-fledged gaming.

As @JadeOfMaar already pointed out, most people can't afford high-end computers to run these sorts of games on. I play WarThunder on a 2007 desktop, and to me, 20 fps is considered 'good'. Here's an idea: If you apparently know so much about mods, and the game, and things that could be done to 'improve' it to your 'standard', why not apply to work at SQUAD instead? RoverDude did it, sal_vager did it, and they've done some good work over the years, helping the community, and the game, grow.

[vger]

Why is everyone suddenly assuming that game improvements will cripple older machines?

[qzgy]

*Looks at mod list* *Spits out coffee*

I've used almost none of your "essential" mods, excluding Scaterrer and PlanetShine. Also, I don't think integrating these would help performance, as you have stated at the bottom.

The people above me have made very good points. Also, I don't believe that integrating mods is the right way to go. The mods already exist, so if we, the player, choose to integrate/depend on it, that's on us, not the devs.

Edited June 13, 2017 by qzgy
realized I am playing with scaterrer

[Alshain]

Just now, qzgy said:

*Looks at mod list* *Spits out coffee*

I've used NONE of your "essential" mods. Also, I don't think integrating these would help performance, as you have stated at the bottom.

The people above me have made very good points. Also, I don't believe that integrating mods is the right way to go. The mods already exist, so if we, the player, choose to integrate/depend on it, that's on us, not the devs.

As long as you aren't on a console.  If you are you have to look at an earth-like planet with no clouds and bad lighting effects.

[qzgy]

2 minutes ago, Alshain said:

As long as you aren't on a console.  If you are you have to look at an earth-like planet with no clouds and bad lighting effects.

No, I'm on a PC. Actually, I should update that statement. I have used Scaterrer and planetshine, but that's about it.
Though, if that is what the console version of Kerbin looks like, that might be a thing to consider improving...

Edited June 13, 2017 by qzgy

[Jengaleng]

10 hours ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

The average desktop over here (Australia), costs around $2000. That's only the average one. Low end ones, $1700, maybe $1500 for a preowned one if you're lucky. Most laptops aren't gaming laptops, and gaming laptops are also expensive over here. I play KSP on a HP ProBook, a laptop meant for Powerpoints, Word documents, and Excel spreadsheets, not fully-fledged gaming.

As @JadeOfMaar already pointed out, most people can't afford high-end computers to run these sorts of games on. I play WarThunder on a 2007 desktop, and to me, 20 fps is considered 'good'. Here's an idea: If you apparently know so much about mods, and the game, and things that could be done to 'improve' it to your 'standard', why not apply to work at SQUAD instead? RoverDude did it, sal_vager did it, and they've done some good work over the years, helping the community, and the game, grow.

I implore you to read the conversation past my OP before responding with such vitriol.

 

This conversation has evolved and it looks like people who actually know what they're talking about about are split on this issue.

 Those who own an old computer that meets the min specs of the game and think that adding a beauty pass would make the game unplayable to you. This is countered by those who say that these said features would not depreciate your PC or KSP experience. There are also those saying that adding such things would in fact add to the resource demand for those wanting to play with stock settings.

And I don't apologize for having "standards" I wish to be met, I paid for this game like everyone else and I work hard to play hard, the costs of PC's around the world isn't a concern for game developers nor is it for me because it's a hobby. Hobbies are activities one partakes in that does nothing but suck a hole in your wallet, some choose golf, fishing or whatnot, gaming(and building robotics and drones) is mine. 

There are a lot of crappy games with amazing graphics being launched these days, I'm just passionate about improving a GREAT game with bad graphics. The feeling that I get when I have all of my visual mods running full bore makes me sometimes forget that I'm actually playing a game and it's a feeling that I wish you all could experience as well, the stock game makes me feel like should be playing with a trackball.  

 

The last point I'll make- The world is getting dumber, politics are hampering knowledge and curiosity. Games like KSP opens a window into the world of creative scientific imagination. Even if the game stays exactly the way it is, it is still a marvel and a wonderful game that expose people to critical thinking they may not otherwise exercise. If nothing I wished here comes true, I'm still proud of KSP and it's contributions. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Jengaleng

[severedsolo]

19 hours ago, Jengaleng said:

That's a very selfless of you linux, considering all of the work you put into the modding community to make this game better. I would like to see people like you relieved of such workload. It makes sense why squad won't be interested in implementing said mods. 

Personally, I wouldn't want Squad to "relieve my workload" I like making mods.

I'd be careful what you wish for anyway I can't think of many examples of stuff that was done by mods first, which then became stock, where the stock implementation was better than the mod.

[Azimech]

On 12-6-2017 at 1:18 AM, Jengaleng said:

3. parts packs like KW, SpaceY, KSPI, Atomics, Near future- These packs make the interest in the game indefinite and the possibilities insurmountable. 

 

Just how many rocket parts can a person have? I remember someone saying that if you can't make a beautiful painting with 4 colours, you won't do it with 16.7 million.

And what is interesting to the one might be boring to the other. To push the longevity of the game Squad could invest in the whole space thing ... but what if everyone's bored one day? Either people quit playing because they can't think outside the confinement of rockets and space ... or they start to explore what else this game can do.

I'll tell you this: T2 knows exactly what they did when they bought Squad.

I'll make a prediction: in the future T2 expects more resources assigned for the development of things to do on the ground.

[AlamoVampire]

@Azimech I hope when you say ground you mean EVAs on other solid celestial bodies and not Kerbin, as this is a space game  after all. Id fully support more things to do on EVA both on orbit and on a planet or moons surface. Which is why i hope KIS/KAS become stock one day!

time 16:06:45

Edited June 13, 2017 by AlamoVampire

[Chel]

5 hours ago, Jengaleng said:

politics are hampering knowledge and curiosity

You don't say!

[Azimech]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Azimech I hope when you say ground you mean EVAs on other solid celestial bodies and not Kerbin, as this is a space game  after all. Id fully support more things to do on EVA both on orbit and on a planet or moons surface. Which is why i hope KIS/KAS become stock one day!

time 16:06:45

I think T2 will move to increase activity on all bodies. It may surprise some but an increasing number of the userbase is bored with space. Interesting fact: the dominant craft type on KerbalX.com is not rockets nor landers. It's fighter jets.