Take-Two Kills "Essential" Grand Theft Auto V Mod

[sh1pman]

Just now, LoSBoL said:

Are you right? Is this how it will work? For real?

Who's gonna buy that?  Are we really thinking/believing this is a viable option for T2 to empty our pockets?

I don't know. I'm happy to be wrong. What I do know for sure is that their only goal is to make all the money they can, and that they now have a history of shutting down mods that they see as harmful to their pocket. 

[Galileo]

Just now, sh1pman said:

...and that they now have a history of shutting down mods that they see as harmful to their pocket. 

To be honest, I would too. It's a business, you know? Does it suck? Yeah, sure. Do they have the right to do it? Yeah, unfortunately. 

[Melfice]

29 minutes ago, Galileo said:

Like I said before, what the mod did was allow people to access exclusive online things and use it in their single player game. OpenIV may not have done it itself, but it was the door for other mods to do it and apparently someone took advantage of it. If you read some of the forums for GTAV, there is constant mention of a couple of mods that did this. In TT's eyes, it was costing them money so they shut it down. It only takes one to screw it up for everyone else. You may not agree with capital punishment, but TT had every right to do it. I'm not defending them just trying to see it from their perspective.

you can keep beating your drum, but I don't think there is as big of a conspiracy as many want.

As an unrelated aside, are you in favour of DRM, such as Denuvo?
As we may all be aware, Denuvo is (or can be if it's not modified) an intrusive DRM solution that has caused problems for legitimate buyers. Rime, as a recent example, reportedly runs considerably better after Denuvo was removed.

DRM, of course, is implemented to prevent piracy of games.
Supposing it is 100% effective. It's not. DRM is cracked often within days, if not that weeks. But supposing it was.

How many of the "lost" sales would be recovered, you think?

And, since I promised you it was unrelated, let's assume blocking the multi player content from the single player works 100%.
How many of the "lost" sales would be recovered, you think?
I know I haven't spent a dime in Online, just so I could get at those cars. I spawned them in. Now I can't spawn them in anymore. I'm still not going to spend a dime to get at those cars.

All this did for RockStar and Take Two is stopping somebody who wasn't going to spend money from not spending money, and as a result they're not going to be spending any money.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Melfice

[Night_Wing_Zero]

So as far as I learned it turns out that take-two the tool to create mods for GTA 5 has been taken down, however is this going to affect in a way to the future development for mods of Kerbal space program?

[Shadowmage]

From my (admittedly unresearched) understanding of the problem, the mod (API/framework?) in question that was taken down was in violation of the EULA regarding reverse engineering.  (Supposedly they used 'clean room' tactics to derive equivalent behavior rather than decompiling the existing code, but that is a defense that has spotty records of holding up in court).

Nothing to see here, pretty standard stuff.  I would have expected SQUAD to do the same had KSP mods blatantly disregarded the KSP-EULA as well (and they probably have).

 

Unless/until Take-Two issues an official formal statement regarding modding on KSP (or its lack of), anything else is going to be speculation at best and contribute little to the community.

[qzgy]

There is already a thread to discuss this.

@Vanamonde, mind merging?

[HvP]

It might be important to understand the scope of the relevant statements by Take-Two.

The developer of OpenIV quoted the cease-and-desist letter as saying that his modding tool does "allow third parties to defeat security features of its software and modify that software in violation Take-Two's rights"; emphasis mine.

The statement by Take-Two reacting to the uproar states that "OpenIV enables recent malicious mods that allow harassment of players and interfere with the GTA Online experience for everybody."

Note that Take-Two is NOT saying that the OpenIV mod tool does any of this directly, merely that it allows other mods to do stuff that violates Take-Two's EULA. In other words, mods don't have to violate the EULA for TT to take you down, they just have to enable other mods to do it.

So what happens if somebody writes a mod that uses Module Manager to add paid DLC content such as the mission builder from the "Making History" expansion to the base game for players that didn't buy the DLC? Wouldn't Module Manager be enabling and allowing third parties to modify the software in violation of Take-Two's rights? Wouldn't the Module Manager be just as liable as OpenIV?

[Vanamonde]

Overlapping threads have been merged. 

[weissel]

On 15/06/2017 at 6:11 AM, TheRagingIrishman said:

KSP PR has confirmed several times that the game will stay open for modding. Speculations like this do nothing but create neadless fear.

18 hours ago, UomoCapra said:

We have no plans to make any changes to KSP modding. We know and value the importance of the modding community in KSP

Obviously, being sane, Squad (read, however the company developing KSP is called now) has absolutely zero interest in slaying the goose that lays golden eggs.  They might ask to not provide EVA parachutes to people not buying a DLC that offers those --- which is understandable --- but they know how much mods have given them ideas, showed what could be done and how much people would (or would not) pick up on that, just by keeping an eye on the mods.  And apart from hiring some of the modders, they have implemented quite a few of the ideas explored by modding, in their own take of the thing.

 

On 15/06/2017 at 7:19 AM, Galileo said:

They could, but I would assume Squad had in the purchase agreement that mods were to stay. It's the biggest selling point of KSP. 

Unfortunately, they might be overruled by T2; we don't know their agreements, and I certainly do not know the loopholes in all the relevant laws.  Maybe replace the board and the CEXses for ones that are ... more malleable?
Also, I am not so sure that all the T2 suits and execs are grounded to reality instead of freely drifting with the wind.  And that is what is worrying --- they might want to squeeze the goose hard, harder, harder, much harder ... to  get more golden eggs as the goose suffocates.  Suffocates without them noticing.

 

On 15/06/2017 at 6:49 AM, AlamoVampire said:

Well considering GTA is a haven for trolls and griefers alike (ive run into more than my fair share there) AND allowing online only content in single player to me sounds like a reasonable reason to kill such a mod. If moving content around like that is possible with such a mod then altering your maze bank account with illicit funds, god moding, and so on are not beyond possible and i think R* TT2 were absolutely spot on correct to shut that down.

22 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Still fails to see how this relates to KSP. I agree a bit with Jim in that they went after the main modding tool because cheating in online even if they played fair.

From what I understand (pure hear-say, though), the "online-only" content was free to use offline until recently (it was distributed as part of the game).  I believe that for using it online you'd have to go through a microtransaction, and I understand that they extended that handling to offline as well.  They could easily *not* have distributed the objects until you paid for them ... they opted not to.  So, hmmm, ...

OpenIV took great pains to not be able to interact with GTA Online (GTAO) in any way, exactly because in any MP game that's going to be used for cheating.

So what T2 did is make the offline game less enjoyable, trying to force people to use GTAO.  However, without GTAO being detoxed, foamed, washed, dried and waxed --- i.e. getting rid of most the spoilers and cheaters there as well as making the tools they use (which do not use OpenIV in first place) non-functional or even toxic to use (loss of money and equipment, account blocked, etc) --- they are not going to get what they want, but they will get some bad rep.  Which may not be good for the bottom line, only time will tell.

 

On 15/06/2017 at 8:02 AM, severedsolo said:

I'd like to point out that OpenIV was technically in breach of the EULA. Specifically this part:

"You agree not to: reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, prepare derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part" - While this is boilerplate stuff, it seems that the creator of OpenIV did technically breach this.

http://gtaforums.com/topic/889348-take-two-vs-modding/ - the creator of OpenIV admits here that they did reverse engineer GTA V (albeit via "clean-room" reverse engineering,

Yes, the creator of OpenIV admits to clean room reverse engineering -- which basically means that you have one team go, decompile, root through, etc. the internals of the object (often binary code) and properly document the behaviour, but not the implementation, of the object.

A second team --- with no contact or connection of the first team --- takes just the produced documentation, and is given the task: build something that acts just like that described behaviour.  Since the team does not know anything about the internals of the object described, they cannot copy or derive any code.  The new 'something' that works according to the documentation was created in a 'clean room' with no contact with the copyrighted implementation.

As to the EULA, they basically are designed to prohibit everything, even if some of that is not legally possible in first place.  But I am not a lawyer, so ...

 

On 15/06/2017 at 8:54 AM, LoSBoL said:

Take2 hasn't shutdown GTA modding, they shut down development of a tool, which in near future could be easily used to hack into GTAO by others who are willing to do so. That is not only in Take2's interest in 'making money', but it's not in the interest of the players who plays GTAO either.

T2 has shut down a tool that took great pains not to work in GTAO.  And there are already tools that hack GTAO today.  It's sort of ordering the removal of a few cardboard boxes (which happen to be in a fireproof safe) in the cellar as a fire risk --- even though not even the safe is accessible to anyone but the owner --- while above the whole building is enveloped in flames.

The interest of the (honest, non-griefing) players of GTAO is to quench the fire that is burning sky high ...

On 15/06/2017 at 10:22 AM, Mako said:

@LoSBoL@Lupi I agree with you and others that Take-Two would be harming themselves by blocking mods for KSP and I share the sentiment that it seems unlikely they would do something to harm themselves.

 

There are very many cases where business decisions harmed the business.  Even when anybody sane could see that coming. 

On 15/06/2017 at 10:50 AM, LoSBoL said:

Could you explain the business model for Take2 if they choose to C&D modding of KSP?  Where's the money?

22 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

Sell it to me... How would T2 make money out of KSP? How will they leech us? Envision me a business model in which the community, which has made KSP with modding, will be prone to empty their pockets?

Sure.  Here we go:

1. "Our DLC has Gas Giant Nr 2.  C&D distributing 'Kopernicus'."
2. "The entry costs for many of the more advanced parts in the game have been changed from Funds to USD.  C&D any mods changing the tech tree, or items therein or changing prices or science costs for the items."
3. "Out new model is somewhat Kerbal Construction Time based.  (And BTW: C&D for Kerbal Construction Time.)  All items need to be manufactured.  As we are a F2P game now, this will take hours (real time!) for a simple FL-T200, and obviously much longer for more complex parts.  Kerballses (in game real money, which you are totally free not to buy if you don't mind waiting for months) can, obviously, speed that up. (Also, no reverting!)
   BTW: 100 Balls for only $1.99, 300 Balls only for $2.99, only while the promotion lasts.
   And obviously, all parts that are similar in function in any way to any in game part are C&D."
4. "100 FL-T200 now for only $1.  If you want to go anywhere, you need this.  And lots of it.  Because you can only reuse them, if you can land them (at less than 2m/s)."
5. "New: Tanks: Fuel and Oxidiser not included.  Buy a van full of LiquidFuel barrels for only $1.35.  (Careful, explosive*)"
   * Will explode if you take any bump at more than crawling speed.  You have to drive it from it's spawn point, somewhere in the mountains to your base.  No, you cannot use a plane or rocket. No, the claw does not work either. (C&D on anything that makes it easier/cheaper/...)
6. "New Feature: Driver for hire!  It turns out that exploding fuel vans are not quite as well liked, as they take up too much time.  Just hire a Kerbal Driver (only $3.99 for a limited period!) who will drive that van home to you*.  No more driving and exploding, just waiting.  Of course you can speed that up with some Kerballses ..."
   * the driver has initially a 1% chance of failing, in which case van and driver are lost.  Each drive doubles the chance for a slight mishap.
   (C&D on anything that makes it cheaper/less crash prone)
7. "New feature: We lowered the cost of many items by 2.5%, but to build a rocket you now need bolts to rivet parts together.  1 Bolt: only $0.01."
   * between 4 and 25 bolts needed for each joining of parts.  Bolts are heavy, too.  Luckily, they rarely break.
8. "New feature: save weight and use welding instead of riveting.  One weld costs now only $0.30 - $0.90, depending on the items to join.  Welds are lighter than bolts, but tend to take much longer to be finished.  Why not stock up on Kerballses?  They are 50% in the next 4 hours!"
9. ...

See?  From buying an occasional DLC to paying for every part, connection, Kerbal, ... and then extra to not wait real-time days.  It's just like printing money!

 

On 15/06/2017 at 4:26 PM, p1t1o said:

You do not have a right to disagree with something being paid-for, you have the right to not buy it, but not to fudge the software to make it available

I most certainly have the right to disagree!  Or are we already in a world where having any opinion against businesses is a crime?
Also, notice the IV in "OpenIV"?  Like GTA IV?

 

22 hours ago, FunnyBunny14 said:

I'm not sure what to think of this. KSP is stupidly mod-friendly in its current build, and unless there are some rather large changes made to the code base that will forever remain the case.

Rather large changes?

"Crash when you find a file or folder in GameData that is not named 'Squad' (or a few others)" ?
"Crash when you find a file anywhere in your game folder that does not give the same answer to the cryptographic hash as recorded in 'hashsums.hs'"?
"Crash if hashsums.hs is not signed with the matching private key to my public key in the .exe"?

Trivial.

Will freeze out modding just fine.

 

22 hours ago, FunnyBunny14 said:

If that was all, though, we wouldn't be here discussing this. First of all, there's obviously the issue with mods overlapping or being outright identical to DLC content. That would likely be taken down if they ever decided to do such a thing. Which I'm kinda fine with, but also not?

Well, if a DLC basically copies a mod and then C&D's the mod instead of paying & naming the mod maker as (one of) the author(s) ...

 

21 hours ago, SchwinnTropius said:

The need to shut down mods that effectively unbalance multiplayer is greater in the GTA case than in KSP.

Yes, but that very much appears not to be what they are doing ...

 

18 hours ago, Galileo said:

with even more confirmation above by Uomocapra, how is there still skepticism? He under/with TT now. There shouldn't be such pessimism.

Let's just say that certain elected leaders sing a completely different tune after the election ... and they have to answer to the people in the next election, while suits only have to answer to the board.

 

12 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

If CKAN autoupdates the installed mods, the KSP folder doesn't look like a proper backup place for mods.

Make a backup folder for the KSP folder?

You are making regular backups, too, right?

3 hours ago, Defenestrator47 said:

Go and read the statements of the Take Two CEO, who believes gamers are 'undermonetized' and that more content should be sectioned off behind paywalls to be accessed.  So in his vision of gaming, buying the game gets you access to core mechanics and some basic assets, but more advanced mechanics and assets (vehicles, parts, planets, biomes, etc. in terms of KSP) would be expansion packs sold separately.

He's about making money.  He doesn't care about gamers, games or anything unless it helps or impedes his way to make more money.  He may also not see that certain things will come home to roost, or misjudge them.

 

3 hours ago, Defenestrator47 said:

Yet.  Wait until T-Two wafts some money or whatever under your nose.  You'll come around.  One way or another you will be convinced of the importance of monetizing your customers more fully.

Money ... and a rubber hose.  And members of your family.  And your race-horse's head on your pillow.

It's so nice to have integrity
I'll tell you why
If you really have integrity
It means your price is very high

 

2 hours ago, Melfice said:

As a platform, OpenIV may have been able to do that. To my understanding OpenIV was designed to be single player only, but being unable to even get "Hello World" code working I'm going to believe for a moment that OpenIV is capable of allowing other mods access to Online.

By shutting down OpenIV, Take Two has done something akin to removing an entire lower jaw because a single tooth was rotten.

Can we all agree that the statement is nothing but PR nonsense? I'm sure we can all agree on that.

You're right there.  OpenIV, if done "right" --- and the servers are done cheap, not checking what the clients (player computers) tell them, just inviting something like that ...  --- then yes, OpenIV could do that.  Yes, they removed the lower jaw, because a single tooth was rotten --- in the upper jaw.

Edited June 16, 2017 by weissel
Sent too early by mistake

[p1t1o]

17 minutes ago, weissel said:

<sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-.-iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip>

I most certainly have the right to disagree!  Or are we already in a world where having any opinion against businesses is a crime?
Also, notice the IV in "OpenIV"?  Like GTA IV?

Ok yes, I worded that badly, but I think most people got the point. Of course you have a right to disagree with something being paid for. You do not have a right to get something for nothing. Or something like that, I forget the context. Im not sure what your point is around the roman numerals?

BTW, were going for a record with the length of that post? Why'd you quote so many people? And you've got unfinished sentences in there...the whole thing is a train-wreck really. Ah, I saw, happens to us all. Still, that post is too long by any standard.

Edited June 16, 2017 by p1t1o

[322997am]

Personally I wouldn't take action yet but I would keep an eye on the situation. If something like CKAN or Kerbal Konstrukts get one of those letters then the community of ksp must respond. Maybe boycott the DLC or something. If the community is unified then Comcast and ea combined  take 2 might respond

[kerbiloid]

50 minutes ago, weissel said:

Make a backup folder for the KSP folder?

You are making regular backups, too, right?

I mean, if CKAN autoupdates mods, it can also destroy them if being forced by legal circumstances.

I don't use CKAN, I do backups manually in a separated directory.

[weissel]

2 hours ago, Melfice said:

As an unrelated aside, are you in favour of DRM, such as Denuvo?
[...]
DRM, of course, is implemented to prevent piracy of games.
Supposing it is 100% effective. It's not. DRM is cracked often within days, if not that weeks. But supposing it was.

How many of the "lost" sales would be recovered, you think?

Well, if you do The Music Industry, then everyone who "pirated"[1] a copy would certainly have bought one.  Because everyone has $50 or $100 to spend on games every week.  They just do this because they don't want to "squander" their millions.

If you ask the real world ... some.  Maybe some.  But you have more costs due to supporting a DRM, and the more intrusive it is, the worse.  After all, only your paying, legitimate customers are forced to endure your DRM, they are basically punished for not "pirating" your software!

 

[1] Especially when they clench their teeth to hold the cutlass while they climb up the rope to the ship transporting the digital data and, using superior weapons, force the crew to make a non-DRM-encumbered copy of the game ... before they remember they are pirates, "neutralize" the crew, make off with anything valuable (including sailors or passengers which can fetch a price at a slave auction and the chest of jewellery from under the captain's bed) and leave the ship behind, sinking, so there'll be no witnesses.

 

1 hour ago, HvP said:

The statement by Take-Two reacting to the uproar states that "OpenIV enables recent malicious mods that allow harassment of players and interfere with the GTA Online experience for everybody."

Let us all remember that computers, too, enable malicious mods ... in fact, you could not run your malicious mods without a computer, but you clearly can run your malicious mods without OpenIV --- OpenVI does not even work with GTAO.

 

2 hours ago, Galileo said:

To be honest, I would too. It's a business, you know? Does it suck? Yeah, sure. Do they have the right to do it? Yeah, unfortunately. 

Do they have the right?  I don't know, I am not a lawyer.  Copyright may or may not work here --- reverse engineering to archive interoperability seems to be allowed in many jurisdictions.  As to EULAs ... some have really questionable terms, but I am not a lawyer, never mind one for Russian Copyright and Contract laws.

 

 

OpenIV and GTA IV ...

46 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Im not sure what your point is around the roman numerals?

Oh, just pointing out that OpenIV was first made for GTA IV, not for GTA V or GTAO.

Edited June 16, 2017 by weissel
Oh, automerging of posts!

[Melfice]

1 minute ago, weissel said:

Do they have the right?  I don't know, I am not a lawyer.  Copyright may or may not work here --- reverse engineering to archive interoperability seems to be allowed in many jurisdictions.  As to EULAs ... some have really questionable terms, but I am not a lawyer, never mind one for Russian Copyright and Contract laws.

I don't remember if this is the case for GTA5, but a German court has mused that an EULA is only enforceable if it has been agreed upon before purchase.

And I don't know if this is strictly true, but I've heard somewhere that an EULA is often found unenforceable simply because nobody ever in the history of mankind has ever read an EULA. But, again, I can't remember if this is at all true, and I can't find any bloody source for this because I don't remember where I heard this... possibly from Nerd³ or Jim Sterling.

[weissel]

8 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

I mean, if CKAN autoupdates mods, it can also destroy them if being forced by legal circumstances.

I don't use CKAN, I do backups manually in a separated directory.

CKAN does not auto-update.  It asks you for everything.

Also I see no legal way at all for T2 to exert force on CKAN.  It does not run KSP, it does not touch it files ... all it does is move some files in and out of a directory.  If they could, they could also force any other random program and every game could force Microsoft to do whatever.

[Mako]

3 hours ago, Galileo said:

To be honest, I would too. It's a business, you know? Does it suck? Yeah, sure. Do they have the right to do it? Yeah, unfortunately. 

Could they chose not to do this and still be profitable? Absolutely. Does it hurt their reputation? Yep. Does it make sense that they would do this? Not really since there are alternative solutions.

[Mako]

3 hours ago, Melfice said:

All this did for RockStar and Take Two is stopping somebody who wasn't going to spend money from not spending money, and as a result they're not going to be spending any money.

And likely those individuals who, like yourself, we're enjoying what mods brought to your GTA experience are now less interested in giving Take-Two money in the future.

I didn't get into GTA V, so I can't say I'm immediately affected by this. However, I had hoped that KSP's purchase would generally be a good thing by supplying capital and resources to grow the franchise. KSP is still a title with a lot of unrealized potential and I was hoping Take-Two might help it and the franchise grow to reach some of that potential. Obviously we still have KSP as it is now, no matter what happens, but I was hopeful that we might have more and that it wouldn't come with customer-unfriendly business practices.

[p1t1o]

40 minutes ago, Melfice said:

And I don't know if this is strictly true, but I've heard somewhere that an EULA is often found unenforceable simply because nobody ever in the history of mankind has ever read an EULA. But, again, I can't remember if this is at all true, and I can't find any bloody source for this because I don't remember where I heard this... possibly from Nerd³ or Jim Sterling.

XD +10points to griffindor if that ever turns out to be true XD

[HvP]

1 hour ago, weissel said:

Let us all remember that computers, too, enable malicious mods ... in fact, you could not run your malicious mods without a computer, but you clearly can run your malicious mods without OpenIV --- OpenVI does not even work with GTAO.

As you say OpenIV wasn't even necessarily responsible for the problems Take-Two ostensibly said they were addressing -- but the malicious mods gave TT cover to start aggressive policing of GTA mods. Which is really what they want anyway because they can now assert the same policy anytime a mod tool might happen interfere with plans to leverage DLC (not that they would admit it though.)

Take-Two worded their statements specifically to encompass the widest possible interpretation that would allow them to shut down OpenIV and give them cover for shutting down any other modding program in the future without being too obvious that they were trying to cast a wide net.

Edited June 16, 2017 by HvP

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, weissel said:

From what I understand (pure hear-say, though), the "online-only" content was free to use offline until recently (it was distributed as part of the game).  I believe that for using it online you'd have to go through a microtransaction, and I understand that they extended that handling to offline as well.  They could easily *not* have distributed the objects until you paid for them ... they opted not to.  So, hmmm, ...

OpenIV took great pains to not be able to interact with GTA Online (GTAO) in any way, exactly because in any MP game that's going to be used for cheating.

So what T2 did is make the offline game less enjoyable, trying to force people to use GTAO.  However, without GTAO being detoxed, foamed, washed, dried and waxed --- i.e. getting rid of most the spoilers and cheaters there as well as making the tools they use (which do not use OpenIV in first place) non-functional or even toxic to use (loss of money and equipment, account blocked, etc) --- they are not going to get what they want, but they will get some bad rep.  Which may not be good for the bottom line, only time will tell.

 

Yes, the creator of OpenIV admits to clean room reverse engineering -- which basically means that you have one team go, decompile, root through, etc. the internals of the object (often binary code) and properly document the behaviour, but not the implementation, of the object.

A second team --- with no contact or connection of the first team --- takes just the produced documentation, and is given the task: build something that acts just like that described behaviour.  Since the team does not know anything about the internals of the object described, they cannot copy or derive any code.  The new 'something' that works according to the documentation was created in a 'clean room' with no contact with the copyrighted implementation.

As to the EULA, they basically are designed to prohibit everything, even if some of that is not legally possible in first place.  But I am not a lawyer, so ...

You can not make an offline game on pc with micro transactions and not expect major hacking / piracy. 
EA tried it on SIMS3, its not in sims4. Note that they probably made money on it and the sims user base is probably less into piracy than the gta one. 
Cheating in pc multiplayer is an major problem, its an issue in MMO there most is done server side and an issue during e-sport matches with live audience and money rewards. 
This is unrelated to mods, and other tools are used, see above. Talk to companies or developers who do pc multiplayer in how to migrate the issue. 

GTAO will be very toxic, even by the standard of multi player games.
At least my idea of user base who play it a lot and not as an sandbox. This can not be fixed realistically. 

And yes you can use some stupid premium car in the single player game, who cares then I can use an gunship to take over an flying yacht.
Flying cars is so yesterday its no fun at all, the cool guys drive star destroyers. 

You rather play ball, this is relevant for KSP, one benefit with official stuff is that it would work with challenges. 
An official dlc gas giant 2 can be used for challenges. You can require that the official life support option is on then doing minimum Moho missions. 
Also add hocks for moders, this make the DLC mandatory for the mod.

Still cooperate stupidity is huge, done by people with very low understanding in that they are handling. 
 

[LoSBoL]

2 hours ago, weissel said:

 

 

Quote

     On ‎15‎-‎6‎-‎2017 at 11:50 AM, LoSBoL said:

Could you explain the business model for Take2 if they choose to C&D modding of KSP?  Where's the money?

On ‎15‎-‎6‎-‎2017 at 10:09 PM, LoSBoL said:

Sell it to me... How would T2 make money out of KSP? How will they leech us? Envision me a business model in which the community, which has made KSP with modding, will be prone to empty their pockets?

 

2 hours ago, weissel said:

Sure.  Here we go:

1. "Our DLC has Gas Giant Nr 2.  C&D distributing 'Kopernicus'."

Ok, stop... I asked for a viable business model and at the very first agenda point you've managed to allienate the complete 'already on its toes' playerbase from spending a dime on KSP, bringing down KSP's value for T2 to near zero...
Do you really think that everybody is just going to roll over, die and accepts this?

 

Quote

 

1. "Our DLC has Gas Giant Nr 2.  C&D distributing 'Kopernicus'."
2. "The entry costs for many of the more advanced parts in the game have been changed from Funds to USD.  C&D any mods changing the tech tree, or items therein or changing prices or science costs for the items."
3. "Out new model is somewhat Kerbal Construction Time based.  (And BTW: C&D for Kerbal Construction Time.)  All items need to be manufactured.  As we are a F2P game now, this will take hours (real time!) for a simple FL-T200, and obviously much longer for more complex parts.  Kerballses (in game real money, which you are totally free not to buy if you don't mind waiting for months) can, obviously, speed that up. (Also, no reverting!)
   BTW: 100 Balls for only $1.99, 300 Balls only for $2.99, only while the promotion lasts.
   And obviously, all parts that are similar in function in any way to any in game part are C&D."
4. "100 FL-T200 now for only $1.  If you want to go anywhere, you need this.  And lots of it.  Because you can only reuse them, if you can land them (at less than 2m/s)."
5. "New: Tanks: Fuel and Oxidiser not included.  Buy a van full of LiquidFuel barrels for only $1.35.  (Careful, explosive*)"
   * Will explode if you take any bump at more than crawling speed.  You have to drive it from it's spawn point, somewhere in the mountains to your base.  No, you cannot use a plane or rocket. No, the claw does not work either. (C&D on anything that makes it easier/cheaper/...)
6. "New Feature: Driver for hire!  It turns out that exploding fuel vans are not quite as well liked, as they take up too much time.  Just hire a Kerbal Driver (only $3.99 for a limited period!) who will drive that van home to you*.  No more driving and exploding, just waiting.  Of course you can speed that up with some Kerballses ..."
   * the driver has initially a 1% chance of failing, in which case van and driver are lost.  Each drive doubles the chance for a slight mishap.
   (C&D on anything that makes it cheaper/less crash prone)
7. "New feature: We lowered the cost of many items by 2.5%, but to build a rocket you now need bolts to rivet parts together.  1 Bolt: only $0.01."
   * between 4 and 25 bolts needed for each joining of parts.  Bolts are heavy, too.  Luckily, they rarely break.
8. "New feature: save weight and use welding instead of riveting.  One weld costs now only $0.30 - $0.90, depending on the items to join.  Welds are lighter than bolts, but tend to take much longer to be finished.  Why not stock up on Kerballses?  They are 50% in the next 4 hours!"
9. ...
   
   See?  From buying an occasional DLC to paying for every part, connection, Kerbal, ... and then extra to not wait real-time days. It's just like printing money!

I'm not seeing it, just that you have a bit of an weird sence in how money is printed...

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, HvP said:

As you say OpenIV wasn't even necessarily responsible for the problems Take-Two ostensibly said they were addressing -- but the malicious mods gave TT cover to start aggressive policing of GTA mods. Which is really what they want anyway because they can now assert the same policy anytime a mod tool might happen interfere with plans to leverage DLC (not that they would admit it though.)

Take-Two worded their statements specifically to encompass the widest possible interpretation that would allow them to shut down OpenIV and give them cover for shutting down any other modding program in the future without being too obvious that they were trying to cast a wide net.

Totally ignoring that they have forced the mod community underground. 
I assume the source code of OpenIV is public. 
Primary objective should be to go open source and go international, you want team members all over the world. 
US lawyers has an insane debuff outside of the US, the open source is an fallback. 

Have an bit of an feeling that Steam played nice with the skyrim and fallout script extender was undiplomatic speaking: we make an version who only work with the official version or one who only work with the cracked version. 
Select your option would not even have to be stated, 
Unfortunately its possible to get SKSE to work with an cracked Skyrim, it should be harder, its part of the deal. 
 

[richfiles]

For the first time in a long time, I find myself entirely apathetic to when Red Dead 2 comes out... I just no longer care...
I was mortified that Take-Two bought KSP... I was mortified then, and even more so now... 

[regex]

4 hours ago, weissel said:

See?  From buying an occasional DLC to paying for every part, connection, Kerbal, ... and then extra to not wait real-time days.  It's just like printing money!

That was literally the most exaggerated, overthought bit of fear-mongering I have read in some time, and I follow Snopes on Facebook. The worst phone games I've seen haven't even come close to trying that sort of blatant money grab.

There's nothing to worry about with KSP, it's already released and has no DRM. Literally nothing that Squad adds can't be handled by mods, and if they try to shut down the modding community they will pretty much destroy the community overall, and everyone will simply lock their versions with the mods they have. Nothing is going to change here except who gets the profit, and maybe some development direction (hopefully in a better direction).

As for the OP, I don't see Take Two or Rockstar doing anything wrong in shutting down that mod, especially if it exposes/helps expose content that is intended to be monetized, even for single player.

Edited June 16, 2017 by regex

[adsii1970]

7 minutes ago, regex said:

That was literally the most exaggerated, overthought bit of fear-mongering I have read in some time, and I follow Snopes on Facebook. The worst phone games I've seen haven't even come close to trying that sort of blatant money grab.

There's nothing to worry about with KSP, it's already released and has no DRM. Literally nothing that Squad adds can't be handled by mods, and if they try to shut down the modding community they will pretty much destroy the community overall, and everyone will simply lock their versions with the mods they have. Nothing is going to change here except who gets the profit, and maybe some development direction (hopefully in a better direction).

As for the OP, I don't see Take Two or Rockstar doing anything wrong in shutting down that mod, especially if it exposes/helps expose content that is intended to be monetized, even for single player.

To summarize what @regex has said in a few sentences...

Software piracy is wrong and illegal. This mod that was crushed by TakeTwo did just that - it cracked part of the code and it was a type of piracy. It was wrong. TakeTwo was correct in doing this.