Melfice

Take-Two Kills "Essential" Grand Theft Auto V Mod

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9 hours ago, severedsolo said:

To the best of my knowledge, no plugins reverse engineer the KSP source code.

You obviously don't have any knowledge to speak of on this matter. As an (ex-)modder myself I'm familiar with the way many mods work, and almost all of them had their developers reverse-engineer parts of KSP over the course of development of said mods. Now, it was mostly done to either work around some stock bugs/limitations or just to figure out how exactly things work (as we have NO documentation worthy of mentioning whatsoever), which is why Squad turned a blind eye to that by adopting a policy of "don't tell, don't ask" (which is why a lot of regular players are completely unaware of this). And I'm not talking about some obscure mods that nobody knows about - these are mods which top the list of most-often-used mods.Now, this practice did not in any way affect a business of Squad, which is why they were lenient on this, but lawyers are a different breed of people who care only about winning legal battles to make money on them (in order to justify their own existence and their big paycheques), and legally they will be in the right. THIS is why a lot of modders are worried now - many of them invested thousands of hours of their free time into their creations out of their own affection to make the game better for everyone, and none of them want all this work to be in vain. 

Edited by asmi

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i'm rather horrified that squad supports a company like take two anyways, i feel like they will make a ksp 2.0 that has plenty of addon packs to buy and microtransactions, and we will all end up on a third party website playing the last good version of ksp with mods.

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Don't be afraid it won't shut down ksp mods. There are a few simple reasons for it:

 

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1 hour ago, UomoCapra said:

We know and value the importance of the modding community in KSP :wink:

I only hope that Take Two do too

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1 hour ago, Galileo said:

When it has to do with players in single player stealing online exclusive add-ons, yes it's illegal. Context is key.

with even more confirmation above by Uomocapra, how is there still skepticism? He under/with TT now. There shouldn't be such pessimism.

What is it now a days with this "end is nigh" mentality? 

As I understand the devs of this mod went all the way to prevent their mod from be using for online cheating. It only allows for extraction and modding of content for single player. Besides, the mod existed for years, why such a reaction NOW? New suit was hired and he's trying to prove himself?

1 hour ago, Neroziat said:

i'm rather horrified that squad supports a company like take two anyways, i feel like they will make a ksp 2.0 that has plenty of addon packs to buy and microtransactions, and we will all end up on a third party website playing the last good version of ksp with mods.

If that happens then don't buy the game. Hit them where it hurts.

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2 hours ago, Kerbital said:

 Take two said that mods from "third parties to defeat security features of its software and modify that software in violations of Take-Two's rights." were illegal. The mod that was shut down violated the EULA which said no decompiling the source, something that that dev has openly admitted he did. So this mod was actually illegal...

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16 minutes ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

something that that dev has openly admitted he did

Pretty sure that actual reverse engineering and "clean room" reverse engineering are two completely different things.

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7 hours ago, Ringkeeper said:

 

E3 , announcement from Bethesda, paid Mods ..... yes, don't fear anything. And oh look, most of the games are singleplayer. Sure, paid mods only for new games.... for now.

 

If you are old enough and already played long enough games you would know, that you can give 0 on "PR said that" or any other "we don't have any plans at the moment" . See Blizzard f.e.

 

 

This isnt a bethesda product. That simple. If squad said mods for ksp are safe and tt echoed it im good. I think it was matt lowne (sp?) who made a great point in his video that does confirm the cease of that "essential" mod and he suggested backing up ksp in a separate location to always have it no matter what the future holds. DISCLAIMER: his rough words and point, I am quoting best I can.

as to that mod only affecting SP? Whats to stop a creative coder from jumping tracks? <-- @nosirrbro 

time 21:37:30

Edited by AlamoVampire

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2 hours ago, Galileo said:

When it has to do with players in single player stealing online exclusive add-ons, yes it's illegal. Context is key.

But this is free content that is being made available for single player.
This is free content (because if it is theft, it's admitting that microtransactions are NOT optional) that was previously already made available for single player, but which was locked away behind code because Take Two/RockStar became aware that the microtransactions were very, very lucrative.

This isn't a case of a paid expansion being unlocked.

Edited by Melfice

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If CKAN autoupdates the installed mods, the KSP folder doesn't look like a proper backup place for mods.

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12 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

We keep running around in circles here, advocating that people are informed that it's not outside the realm of possibility that T2 can do whatever they want is not really helpful. It just feeds the underbelly reasoning we've already seen so much off.  
Microtransactions will never work with the current KSP, there is no business model in that when the complete basis has been modding KSP, DLC was already announced before the KSP franchise was sold 

My point is and will continue to be that Take-Two is the only entity calling the shots from here on out. They can do whatever they want to the current KSP product and any future products. The fact that they killed a popular single-player GTA mod because it enabled unfavorable mods is proof that they're willing to upset a large part of their customer base. That makes me think they wouldn't hesitate to upset the relatively small KSP community in a similar way.

Imagine Take-Two decides to make new parts packs available in microtransaction form with or without Squad's involvment. This doesn't seem far-fetched. Then maybe Take-Two decides to go after something like ModuleManager or TextureReplacer since they allow users to easily incorporate free part mod packs that include similar styled parts as Take-Two's packs. This scenario, while unlikely, is not very different from the GTA scenario. It's foolish to believe it's impossible given what just happened with one of their biggest properties.

Again, I'm not saying it's going to happen. Heck, KSP is probably too small for Take-Two to care about. But since they're willing to do this to GTA, I wouldn't be surprised to find they're willing to do something similar to KSP. It sets a precedent that they are unconcerned with their customers' best interests. At the very least it's an unpleasant bit of news and I think current and potential customers should be aware of the situation.

Edited by Mako

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12 hours ago, p1t1o said:

I wonder, how supportive of mods were TT before this happened? Did they encourage mod development? did they encourage this mods development?

Rockstar actively showcased mods, including mods that used OpenIV. OpenIV has been active for around 10 years and Rockstar and Take-Two have never spoken out against it. Take-Two chose to shut down the mod rather than attempt to work with its creator to prevent undesirable mods that may be built off of OpenIV. OpenIV was intended and designed to only function in single-player offline mode.

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8 hours ago, UomoCapra said:

We have no plans to make any changes to KSP modding. We know and value the importance of the modding community in KSP :wink:

I wasnt worried till this post. Im sure the wording is carefully choosen, which makes "we have no plans" sound extremly dangerous.

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8 hours ago, Galileo said:

with even more confirmation above by Uomocapra, how is there still skepticism? He under/with TT now. There shouldn't be such pessimism.

Squad and Take-Two are still separate entities with Take-Two owning KSP completely. As much as I appreciate the assurance of @UomoCapra and Squad, and as much as I believe that Squad really means it, the fact remains that Take-Two can decide to do whatever they want regardless of Squad's wishes or involvment. As far as I understand the business arrangement, if Take-Two decides to take KSP development in a new direction they could fire Squad and assign a new developer to KSP at any time.

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8 hours ago, UomoCapra said:

We have no plans to make any changes to KSP modding. We know and value the importance of the modding community in KSP :wink:

While I know you mean it and that some of the drama in this thread is a bit overboard I would rather have a quote from T2 than Squad. R* blog is full of post about modding and yet T2 shot down GTA modding.

Edited by sarbian

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From my incompetent pov, with GTA they've banned the mod which, as far as I can understand, was obviously competing with their commercial content (sharing it between players who hadn't accepted it private distribution rules or so).

So, we can presume that T2 will get nervous about the commercial DLC sharing. 
And, maybe, about a mod directly competing with the DLC content.

On another hand, probably they would not really worry about the mods which require those DLC content. 
Say, many Skyrim and Fallout mods require official DLC as basement.

Unlikely they will ban small and simple mods, as nobody will pay for them anyway.
More likely they can ban some global mods competing with resource harvesting/industry/signals/science to force the modders and players use their stock model, extended with DLC. 
Probably DLC will grow and include more activities, moving corresponding mods into the gray zone.

On another hand, not much sense makes banning of such mod overlords like KSPI-E, because unlikely official DLC go so deep into theme, and unlikely such mega-mods can steal much players from the official DLC. But who knows.

(Being them, I would buy at least ModuleManager, MechJeb, KerbalFoundries, KerbalKonstructs and BDArmory and integrate them into the game just to make the process of modding more controllable.)

But all said above can be equally said about any commercial company, including Squad.
So, unlikely this depends on the owner. More likely on profit.

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11 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

But all said above can be equally said about any commercial company, including Squad.
 

a yup they changed the building monopoly for the corporation monopoly lately, funny, disney approve

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All I'm going to say is if TTI removes modding, I will be angrier than that pesky little wasp who is always outside my living room window. :mad:

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4 hours ago, Mako said:

My point is and will continue to be that Take-Two is the only entity calling the shots from here on out. They can do whatever they want to the current KSP product and any future products. 

Yes, You keep repeating that, and I completely agree that they can do whatever they want, Just like VAG could decide to stop making Audi's or Intel stops making Core I5's.
At the same time you keep agreeing that it would be very unlikely to do so from a business perspective, so why keep emphasizing on it?

Quote

The fact that they killed a popular single-player GTA mod because it enabled unfavorable mods is proof that they're willing to upset a large part of their customer base. That makes me think they wouldn't hesitate to upset the relatively small KSP community in a similar way.

Ask yourself the question, is the modding community of GTA their customer base? They literally make millions with GTAO, I'm not saying they don't have a huge amount of players that Mod the game, but it's not the core of GTA's money making machine. They even could completely ban modding GTA  (which they haven't) and it would not effect them making money in GTAO.

Now look at KSP, which has modding the game within its core foundation since early development. Up to the point that KSP can be considered a placeholder for you to make your own game(play), for free!
You bet your behind that they would hesitate highly to change even a single bit of the modding possibilities. They don't have to deal with a niche part of the playerbase like in GTA, they have to deal with the whole and complete playerbase of KSP.

Quote

 

Imagine Take-Two decides to make new parts packs available in microtransaction form with or without Squad's involvment. This doesn't seem far-fetched. Then maybe Take-Two decides to go after something like ModuleManager or TextureReplacer since they allow users to easily incorporate free part mod packs that include similar styled parts as Take-Two's packs. This scenario, while unlikely, is not very different from the GTA scenario. It's foolish to believe it's impossible given what just happened with one of their biggest properties.

There is only one thing I can image happening, the complete playerbase would flip them the bird. They won't pay a single dime for a microtransaction partspacks in 1.4 if they could have had that in 1.3 for free from the modding community.
It is not impossible, its murdering your own investment shutting down modding KSP.

Quote

 

Again, I'm not saying it's going to happen. Heck, KSP is probably too small for Take-Two to care about. But since they're willing to do this to GTA, I wouldn't be surprised to find they're willing to do something similar to KSP. It sets a precedent that they are unconcerned with their customers' best interests. At the very least it's an unpleasant bit of news and I think current and potential customers should be aware of the situation.

I really don't think GTA and KSP have any resemblances in the way they are or can be monetized within the future. T2's money is in the Kerbal franchise, not in KSP itself. 

Edited by LoSBoL

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19 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

As you raised your voice, YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER. 
You are right that T2 is in the lead, and can basically do what they want with mods. Yet nobody (as of yet) has expressed any critical succes factors for T2 to do so.

So, I have a question...

Sell it to me... How would T2 make money out of KSP? How will they leech us? Envision me a business model in which the community, which has made KSP with modding, will be prone to empty their pockets?
And don't just reap  'microtransactions!', If you think it is?  Then give it a foundation.

Go and read the statements of the Take Two CEO, who believes gamers are 'undermonetized' and that more content should be sectioned off behind paywalls to be accessed.  So in his vision of gaming, buying the game gets you access to core mechanics and some basic assets, but more advanced mechanics and assets (vehicles, parts, planets, biomes, etc. in terms of KSP) would be expansion packs sold separately.  He's a great believer in selling smaller chunks of content for more money.  Sell it to you?  The guy does my work for me.  I'm raising my voice because I have been gaming on PC for going on twenty years and this pattern repeats, in one form or another, for that entire time.

15 hours ago, UomoCapra said:

We have no plans to make any changes to KSP modding. We know and value the importance of the modding community in KSP :wink:

Yet.  Wait until T-Two wafts some money or whatever under your nose.  You'll come around.  One way or another you will be convinced of the importance of monetizing your customers more fully.

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I've read RockStar's statement now.

Because, allegedly, OpenIV enables other mods to allow cheating in Online, OpenIV needed to be shut down.

As a platform, OpenIV may have been able to do that. To my understanding OpenIV was designed to be single player only, but being unable to even get "Hello World" code working I'm going to believe for a moment that OpenIV is capable of allowing other mods access to Online.

By shutting down OpenIV, Take Two has done something akin to removing an entire lower jaw because a single tooth was rotten.

 

Can we all agree that the statement is nothing but PR nonsense? I'm sure we can all agree on that.

Edited by Melfice

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"Dear KSP players, we are happy to announce a premium "Second Gas Giant" package for only $9.99! Oh, and we're also shutting down all third-party planet packs because they are going to compete with this new content."

This is how it works, am I right?

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1 hour ago, Melfice said:

Can we all agree that the statement is nothing but PR nonsense? I'm sure we can all agree on that.

Like I said before, what the mod did was allow people to access exclusive online things and use it in their single player game. OpenIV may not have done it itself, but it was the door for other mods to do it and apparently someone took advantage of it. If you read some of the forums for GTAV, there is constant mention of a couple of mods that did this. In TT's eyes, it was costing them money so they shut it down. It only takes one to screw it up for everyone else. You may not agree with capital punishment, but TT had every right to do it. I'm not defending them just trying to see it from their perspective.

you can keep beating your drum, but I don't think there is as big of a conspiracy as many want.

Edited by Galileo

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1 hour ago, Defenestrator47 said:

Go and read the statements of the Take Two CEO, who believes gamers are 'undermonetized' and that more content should be sectioned off behind paywalls to be accessed.  So in his vision of gaming, buying the game gets you access to core mechanics and some basic assets, but more advanced mechanics and assets (vehicles, parts, planets, biomes, etc. in terms of KSP) would be expansion packs sold separately.  He's a great believer in selling smaller chunks of content for more money.  Sell it to you?  The guy does my work for me.  I'm raising my voice because I have been gaming on PC for going on twenty years and this pattern repeats, in one form or another, for that entire time.

I didn't ask for T2's ceo's statement, I can read that for myself.
I asked you how your fears would become reality in the real world of KSP, how would you get a complete community to all of a sudden be leached when they were able to get everything youve mentioned in 1.3 for free.
Like I said a few posts before your reaction, they'll flip em the bird. See example below

 

8 minutes ago, sh1pman said:

"Dear KSP players, we are happy to announce a premium "Second Gas Giant" package for only $9.99! Oh, and we're also shutting down all third-party planet packs because they are going to compete with this new content."

This is how it works, am I right?

Are you right? Is this how it will work? For real?

Who's gonna buy that?  Are we really thinking/believing this is a viable option for T2 to empty our pockets?

1 hour ago, Melfice said:

I've read RockStar's statement now.

Because, allegedly, OpenIV enables other mods to allow cheating in Online, OpenIV needed to be shut down.

As a platform, OpenIV may have been able to do that. To my understanding OpenIV was designed to be single player only, but being unable to even get "Hello World" code working I'm going to believe for a moment that OpenIV is capable of allowing other mods access to Online.

By shutting down OpenIV, Take Two has done something akin to removing an entire lower jaw because a single tooth was rotten.

 

Can we all agree that the statement is nothing but PR nonsense? I'm sure we can all agree on that.

Why not add the statement?

 

"Take-Two's actions were not specifically targeting single player mods. Unfortunately OpenIV enables recent malicious mods that allow harassment of players and interfere with the GTA Online experience for everybody. We are working to figure out how we can continue to support the creative community without negatively impacting our players."

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