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Flood Fuel Tanks OR Inflatable Floaters


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Ok guys and girls, I did looked after this on the forum and google and I couldn't find what I am looking for. So I am posting this here in hope someone can point me to the right direction. 

Situation: I am a salvagemonger. I recover all the stages I can. I do that: 1-because of $$$, 2-because it sounds realistic (you don't see NASA droping stages on peoples head just because they are not usefull anymore) and 3-because I enjoy engineering the stages for recovery, it is like a bonus challange/prize for the main mission.

Until now they have been challanging but ok. But now I ended up with a complex situation as the stages become bigger and longer. I have this stage: mainsail with 3 double tank and a few other small parts, I can manage to speedbreak to parachutes limits and deploy them. I manage to make the stage land  standing up or on its belly, however even when it lands on its belly it comes down with some degree, since it is too heavy and the once the rocket touch the ground cuts the parachute it comes down and crash at ground normally destroying the small and expensive parts and also the topmost double tank. For the record I manage to touch ground at 4m/s. And this is more a problem in water then in land, because in land I can just extend the airbrakes and once the rocket cut the chutes only one airbrake is destroyed ($1000 is acceptable), but in  water the airbrake make no diference and all the parts that are topmost get the impact and break appart.

Soo I was thinking what could be the most aproximated solution to real life.

Inflatable Floaters that would expand as soon as the stage splash or land to minimize the shock of angled parts.

OR

A way to flood the fuel tanks as soon as it hit the water, this way I could control buoyance and not let the stage tip 90 degree to its side and break other parts. over ground I can keep with the airbreakers for now.

Soo my question is: do you know of any mods that allow me this things? Does such thing exist? 

 

Thanks a lot!

 

 

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SXT mod have inflatable balloon and several parts that specifically designed to land on water (such as floating pad for seaplanes or inflatable airbags). Or, of you want stock, use the inflatable heat shield. It's large, but it is buoyant enough that you can build a small offshore base on it if you got creative enough

Edited by ARS
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Do note that inflatable airbags MUST BE MANUALY INFLATED WITH ACTION GROUP. The default space bar action is DECOUPLING IT AWAY (That means you can inflate it before the stage touches the water, and it will stay like that until you deflate it manually or decouple it)

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53 minutes ago, ARS said:

Do note that inflatable airbags MUST BE MANUALY INFLATED WITH ACTION GROUP. The default space bar action is DECOUPLING IT AWAY (That means you can inflate it before the stage touches the water, and it will stay like that until you deflate it manually or decouple it)

Ok I just tested them and unfortunatelly they don't work as effectyvellly as I planned and I think it is not even their fault. Thing is the interactiong between the huge mass of the stage (14t) and the water is not realistic. Once it touches water and chutes are cutted it stands over the water about 1/10 of its length. In reality it would sink a lot more achiving a buoyance point and maybe then lay down on its belly.  

 

If the stage come down in angle on its belly then as ridiculous as it seems the water have a much more shocking effect compared to land. The rocket wont survive after the chutes are cutted but in land the inflatable actually cushion the rocket and nothing happen. This is weird.

:(

Anyway, thanks for the mod. I will keep it, very interesting.

I need to find a way to flood the fuel tanks now. Anyone?

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No idea if this might work, but (here it comes) there is a mod that might help!  

This has chutes which apparently don't collapse on touching the ground.  I have no idea if these would help you, not something I've tried, but I am aware of the type of thing you are trying to do and the forces when the rocket stack topples at sea are pretty hefty.  Worth a try?

 

XrayLima

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3 hours ago, XrayLima said:

No idea if this might work, but (here it comes) there is a mod that might help!  

This has chutes which apparently don't collapse on touching the ground.  I have no idea if these would help you, not something I've tried, but I am aware of the type of thing you are trying to do and the forces when the rocket stack topples at sea are pretty hefty.  Worth a try?

 

XrayLima

Thanks a lot for the suggestion but I was already using RealChutes at this point. They are awesome (and complex). But they cut if when touching ground reaches 0.0 speed (0.5 by default). The feature you talking about is more usefull if the subject land on a slope and become dangerous to roll and gain suficient speed to crash, but in my case the rocket touch the ground the speed reaches 0.0 and then cut chutes then the rocket tumble.

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Try using wide fins with fuel tanks on the ends as pontoons.  Use at least 4 since 3 still tips often.  Or, put the parachutes symmetrically around the middle rather than the top, and come down sideways.  As long as your speed is less than 7 m/s you'll be safe in water or land.

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I also had this problem with my reusable lifter.(I generally still had 20m/s to kill while landing on my chutes so I always throttle up a bit just before landing. Only 30-40units of fuel req)(atleast with a mammoth engine and 3fuel tanks prob be a bit less required for yours) What I found was, if you have enough fuel to keep engines on at tiny amount of throttle,upon landing it tends to keep the parachutes open then they will allow you to gently fall over and splash it down on its side.

dont know why the throttle thing works but I'm not complaining. Also I'm on console so no mods. This should work with stock game

hope this helps.

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5 hours ago, nascarlaser1 said:

USI rescue pack has a bunch of airbags and flotation devices, both inline and radial. They work great for small payloads like 1 man diving bells. I haven't used the for anything else so not sure how well it works for bigger payloads.

YEEEEESSSS I was just about to post here for people with the same problem. Those floaters from USI are much better then those of SXT!!! I placed 6 alongside its belly with chutes in the other side to make it land by its side, they cushioned the stage even at 45 degree angle. I still need to make some tests with standing up landing/splashing. They also worked over land too! 

+PLUS they look better then SXT

++PLUS the package comes with lots of other toys too, for example a collection of awesome airbags!

Totaly recomend, very happy with the new toys.

NOTE: even this wonderfull new toys wont helped me with a standing up landing. The problem is that as it touches water it stabilizes for a second and tumble, no airbag or floater can help with this. The solution is to use one side chutes to land it on its side and use the airbags or floaters to absorb some of the impact.

 

5 hours ago, sdj64 said:

Try using wide fins with fuel tanks on the ends as pontoons.  Use at least 4 since 3 still tips often.  Or, put the parachutes symmetrically around the middle rather than the top, and come down sideways.  As long as your speed is less than 7 m/s you'll be safe in water or land.

Interesting, I will try and post the results for anyone else interested. Update: didn't work, unfortunatelly.

3 hours ago, mikey117 said:

I also had this problem with my reusable lifter.(I generally still had 20m/s to kill while landing on my chutes so I always throttle up a bit just before landing. Only 30-40units of fuel req)(atleast with a mammoth engine and 3fuel tanks prob be a bit less required for yours) What I found was, if you have enough fuel to keep engines on at tiny amount of throttle,upon landing it tends to keep the parachutes open then they will allow you to gently fall over and splash it down on its side.

dont know why the throttle thing works but I'm not complaining. Also I'm on console so no mods. This should work with stock game

hope this helps.

For your situation I love to use airbrakes! They are awesome.

I tried your solution in my situation and didn't worked. The problem is not the speed it touches the water or land as it do it at 4m/s. The problem is that once the lowest part touches water or land the speed reaches 0.0 and chutes are cutted, then it tumbles and the top part hit the ground or water with enought speed that destroy parts.

Edited by felcas
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UPDATE: after several experiments, I found out that the most elegant solution to long stages that re-entry and are planned for recover is to actually split it in smaller pieces which you can control CoM much better and how they will land, it is also less prone for error and easier to setup. There are 2 variants: you can split before re-entry or after re-entry, they have pros and contras that you need to weight of and depend on each ship design.

 

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Quick question: Are you using FMRS?

Also, you might want to check out the Inline Ballutes mod - it adds these... basically enormous inflatable donuts filled with lighter-than-air gas, and can be used like parachutes but deployed at altitudes of up to 100km.

I also suggest that you put one set of parachutes at the rear of your booster, and one set at the front. This way, the rocket lands in its entirety on its side, and it doesn't tip - because it landed already on its side. I pretty sure @Martian Emigrant or someone else used that or something similar to recover SRBs for the Doing It Constellation Style challenge.

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5 hours ago, NISSKEPCSIM said:

Quick question: Are you using FMRS?

Also, you might want to check out the Inline Ballutes mod - it adds these... basically enormous inflatable donuts filled with lighter-than-air gas, and can be used like parachutes but deployed at altitudes of up to 100km.

I also suggest that you put one set of parachutes at the rear of your booster, and one set at the front. This way, the rocket lands in its entirety on its side, and it doesn't tip - because it landed already on its side. I pretty sure @Martian Emigrant or someone else used that or something similar to recover SRBs for the Doing It Constellation Style challenge.

What? Hi. I have no idea what this tread is about but, yes, I did.

Doing it Constellation Style

The chutes disappear as soon as the booster touches the water then the stack fall sideways hard enough to break the Darn thing.

y1TmRHc.png

 

ME

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19 hours ago, NISSKEPCSIM said:

Quick question: Are you using FMRS?

Also, you might want to check out the Inline Ballutes mod - it adds these... basically enormous inflatable donuts filled with lighter-than-air gas, and can be used like parachutes but deployed at altitudes of up to 100km.

I also suggest that you put one set of parachutes at the rear of your booster, and one set at the front. This way, the rocket lands in its entirety on its side, and it doesn't tip - because it landed already on its side. I pretty sure @Martian Emigrant or someone else used that or something similar to recover SRBs for the Doing It Constellation Style challenge.

Thanks for all your input.

No FMRS - despite the fact that it seems to be an interesting mod, atm I don't need it.I use Stage Recover Mod, but the thing is, I don't just leave it to Stage Recover, for my playstyle the stage NEEDS to land safelly before I just hand it to Stage Recover. Once I develop a stage that land safelly then I just launch and leave the recover for Stage Recover to handle the procedures.

Ballutes - also interesting in concept, but sounds a bit exagerated and unrealistic and I prefer a more realistic playstyle. 

Your parachute suggestion - it seems you didn't read all the post, but I don't condeem you. You can't just place a set of chutes on each tip of the stage, because the stage will probably land inclined and this is a real problem if your stage is long, because once the lowest part touches the land or the water the chutes cutoff (even realchutes) and the other side hanging in the air drops abruptly and gets destroyed, even on water.  Soo this doesn't work, I tried much before coming here. The solution is to measure the EXACT EQUIDISTANT distance from the CoM and place radial chutes, this is  A PAIN IN THE ASS and I just came here looking for a diferent solution because I don't want to do that everytime I design a new rocket. But now I am using a hack mod that allow me to jump right over the situation saving a lot of time for the tests, before this I had to setup the chutes, launch, drop, wait, wait, wait, open chutes and wait more just to see how it would land, even an inclination as small as 6 degrees would result in catastrophic drops and back to drawing board. Plus I was satisfield with side lands before, but now I am not, when I realised that 4m/s is a LOT even not destroying the stage, in RL it would cause major damage to anything.  Now I use airbags and floater associated with smaller stages.

 

14 hours ago, Martian Emigrant said:

What? Hi. I have no idea what this tread is about but, yes, I did.

Doing it Constellation Style

The chutes disappear as soon as the booster touches the water then the stack fall sideways hard enough to break the Darn thing.

Exactly, that is my point since the begining of the post.

As I just replied, the solution is to use equidistants chutes away from the CoM, but this is a pain in the ass and need several trials, now it is easier because I use a hack mod that allow me to jump right to the test fase. But this jouney to find a solution brought me to question how reasonable it is to drop a 10 tons stage on its side at 4m/s? Not realistic at all, and I try to play as realistic as possible, it is a playstyle thing. Soo now I make the stage separate into smaller sizes and land them with floater or airbags.

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1 hour ago, NISSKEPCSIM said:

@felcas What you could do is a series of test - if one end of the booster is inclined, simply add one more drogue chute to balance it out.

This is not a "correct" or "professional" solution (it is actually even more difficult solution) because:

1-Adding a chute is not a fractional thing, you dont just pour chutes in one side like poweder and se if it balance, it does not work like that. It will probably not be enought or it willl be too much.

2-Each part you add, weight around 200kg EACH! You must add radially or you will end up with de-centered CoM which will cause problems during launch. Each time you add one radial chute you end up with one more. Soo lets say have 4 and it is unbalanced, then lets put in 5, but then it is not 5 but 6. But lets say 5 is ok, it will balance, but you need to add 6 because thats how things work, so now you end up unbalanced again! See? And I will not even talk about weight. :wink: 

For the record I am using RealChute Mod

 

 

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