Ultimate Moho 6 Expedition

[antipro]

hi,

I'd like to complete this mission:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5pyd0g3ztd8b07x/Screenshot 2017-06-28 07.41.42.png?dl=0

I did a similar one some time ago, but I've landed on eve at the end, while this mission specify that I have to finish landing on kerbin.
I'm quite sure that decouple a lander for eve will not work: I have to land with the main vessel core.

I need a ship that can land/takeoff eve, and reach moho, this is very hard, at least for me, how many of you guys have already complete this? how?
 

[Weywot8]

Sorry to disappoint haven't done this yet - replying to the thread so I can follow all the potentially cool answers which I can imagine would include

• flight paths for reducing dV needed
• multi-stage resupply/ISRU mission plans
• detachable boosters like in the Star War prequels where you leave the interplanetary return home stage  (tanks +/- engine) in orbit of Eve, land and return in a much reduced size ship from shedding all the Eve ascent stages, dock with the return stage - go home, PROFIT!
• variant of SSTOs maybe?

 

[Foxster]

36 minutes ago, antipro said:

I'm quite sure that decouple a lander for eve will not work: I have to land with the main vessel core.

What makes you so sure of that? 

Admittedly an Eve lander/orbit-return craft is specialised but it is possible to make something to do the job for about 25-30t. You'd be throwing most of it away and so your Kerbal would have to transfer back to a mothership for the next leg of the journey.  

[bewing]

I think youre going to need a couple of spacetugs, and a drill on gilly at least. Maybe on Minmus, too. Don't send any kerbals. Do Eve last. Then push the final probe core + upper stage back to Kerbin with one of the spacetugs.

[antipro]

if I've understood well, must be an ISRU ship with Apollo design.

 

4 hours ago, Foxster said:

What makes you so sure of that?

cause I've already tried it with another 6 planets landing contract: Instead of using a big ship to land every planet,
I built the main ship with 5 little landers attached but I've realized that it doesn't work this way.
 

 

3 hours ago, bewing said:

I think youre going to need a couple of spacetugs, and a drill on gilly at least. Maybe on Minmus, too. Don't send any kerbals. Do Eve last. Then push the final probe core + upper stage back to Kerbin with one of the spacetugs.

is a spacetug a command module+fuel+engine+docking port+rcs?
if yes, excuse me, do you mean I have to launch 2 spacetugs in eve orbit before I launch the contract ship, in order to help the last stage to return?

Edited June 28, 2017 by antipro

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

4 hours ago, Foxster said:

What makes you so sure of that? 

Admittedly an Eve lander/orbit-return craft is specialised but it is possible to make something to do the job for about 25-30t. You'd be throwing most of it away and so your Kerbal would have to transfer back to a mothership for the next leg of the journey.  

I think the OP meant that he would have to land the command module/probe core from the main vessel to complete the contract, which is true.

@antipro I haven't done this specific contract, but I've done similar ones. What sets this apart is the land and return from Eve, as you pointed out, but it's definitely doable. You're correct that your command pod would need to make the landing and the launch back to orbit, but that's all that needs to return. I would treat this like a Jool 5 or even a Grand Tour, with separate landers that the command module attaches to. It doesn't say the ship has to be manned, but I would do so anyway to make it more enjoyable (and fulfilling when you complete it). The Mun, Minmus, Gilly part is simple enough. You just need landers for Eve and Moho. I would make the landers bare-bones and stage most of it away (as Foxster suggested). Then just reattach the command module and move on. You'll have to think out your design, but you can definitely do this. I think for this mission (like any good mission), the majority of the work will be done in the VAB. Good luck, Kerbonaut.

[WanderingKid]

The trick to missions of this nature is that only a single part of the craft has to show up everywhere.

That said, it's still not simple.

Apollo is the answer, but you'll need to bring some disposable parts.

The easiest way to approach this is to think "Bring a unique, disposable lander to each target".  Tylo is similar in this nature for contracts.  Whatever you land on Tylo with you don't want to have to drag everything back up to your mothership with you.  Eve has the same problem, just worse.  Now there's atmo too!

Some of them won't matter.  You can just leave a few gas cans on the mothership that can be left behind (Moho).  On Eve, you want a big fat aerobrake component that you'll ditch during landing, a couple of parachutes to land, and a staged lifter that gets your Kerbal and the little pod that he dropped by in off the planet to hook up to his other landers with.

If even a parachute hits everywhere, you win.  The MK1 pod will be plenty, it just takes some planning.

[bewing]

16 minutes ago, antipro said:

Do you mean I have to launch 2 spacetugs in eve orbit before I launch the contract ship, in order to help the last stage to return?

You don't have to. And no, I was thinking one spacetug to push the Moho lander to Moho, and another one to push the Eve lander to Eve and get you back to Kerbin from Eve.

Whatever piece you manage to get back up to orbit from Eve's surface is not going to be capable of any interplanetary flight by itself.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by bewing

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

@WanderingKid We've got the same idea, but I've been thinkin' about it on the way to work, and I think I'd use 3 landers. Not sure if this sounds crazy or not, but I'd do Mun, Minmus, and Gilly first. You can use the same small lander for each (be a bit overbuilt for Gilly, but that would be part of my plan). This would be my mission:

Launch and head to Mun. Detach and do the landing and return. Then head to Minmus. Detach again and do the landing. After reattaching, use Minmus mining operation to refuel main ship. Do the "Minny dive" for the transfer to Eve. Detach the Mun/Minmus lander again and send it to Gilly (this is where being a bit overbuilt comes in handy). Make the Gilly landing and return to main ship in Eve orbit. Dump the small lander and attach command pod to Eve lander. Make the landing. Back to orbit, staging away everything but command pod. Reattach to main ship, which is now just Moho lander and return ship. From there it's pretty straightforward. Head to Moho. Detach lander. Land and return, staging away everything but command pod. Reattach to return ship and head home. It actually sounds like a lot of fun. Just gotta do the work in the VAB to get it right.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[Spricigo]

My take:

1st launch,  a land on Eve and return to orbit mission (codename Grammy) .  Last stage  (codename Baby) can dock. 

2nd launch,  interplanetary mother ship (codename Momny) ,  go to Eve's orbit (gate orbit to Moho )  deploy a vehicle (codename AuntJil)  to collect Baby,  land on Gily and bring Baby back to Mommy.

Nanny stay in Eve's orbit while Mommy get Baby to Moho. At Moho Baby dock with lander and return to orbit vehicle (codename UncleTed). After visiting Moho Uncleared stay and Mommy get Baby to Mun

3rd launch (codename Daddy)  meet Mommy at Mun and take baby to land at Mun,  Minmus and return to Kerbin. 

[antipro]

I want to do this contract with 1 launch only.

I've started projecting the ship for the return from eve:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qam36rxuohhhohf/um6e.craft?dl=0

this ship can put an RC-001S and some fuel into a low orbit.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bunp4slb7i8nsl2/2017.07.01-11.22.mp4?dl=0

The engine behind the shield is used only to deorbit while testing, it isn't included in the project.
RCS isnt necessary cause orbiting mothership will have it, but I'll try to add it to this prototype, I'll also add Sepatrons.

The prototype needs also some edit such as less radiators: they kill batteries, and some stages priorities.

The next step, I think I'm going to add another ISRU ship behind this one, with atomic engines, capable of interplanetary travels and land on moho.
after this it remains to project the main massive launcher.

suggests to improve eve launcher efficiency and structural solidity, are very appreciated!
I'd like to also know how do I locate some tall mountain on eve.
 

edit: this an updated thermal optimized version, a bit more heavy but with RCS, sepatrons and science instruments, just add an hi-gain antenna to send data faster.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c0n16h4n4z6p8kb/um6e v2.craft?dl=0

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by antipro

[Spricigo]

Pictures please.  

[antipro]

In order to try to build the most light ship, I did dozen of eve land/takeoff, the result do not change so much, this is the version I'll use in the mission:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xjb23rulei8iaj1/um6e T.craft?dl=0

it can put the load(core+shield+parachute+decoupler+clamp+adapter+panels) in a low orbit, but with no fuel.
These days I unsuccessfully did almost every combination adding tanks everywhere, in the center and on the radial engines, adding radial stages, etc..
can someone please tell me how do I optimize this ship in order to reach the orbit with that load and some fuel?
Do I have to add radial stages? reduce tanks size? less engines? what?
I think I'm not able to optimize it anymore and at every change I have to spend a lot of time landin and isru refuel.

or anyway can someone tell me where is the tallest mountain on eve?
I've seen mountains near to 4000m but maybe there's a taller mount somewhere.

Edited July 3, 2017 by antipro

[Weywot8]

There should be something suitable at these coordinates 5° 1' 54" S 98° 38' 7" E - use MechJeb/HyperEdit to scout it out to be sure. Things might have changed as I haven't landed on/SCANSat'ed altimetry of Eve in the current career. The mountain used to shrink with newer updates in the past. There used to be a forum thread that documented an Eve landing followed by the journey to haul the ship up the peak of one of the taller mountains in order to get home. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Weywot8

[bewing]

Look for the biome called Olympus. Not sure if it's the tallest, but it's big.

 

[Weywot8]

16 hours ago, antipro said:

In order to try to build the most light ship, I did dozen of eve land/takeoff, the result do not change so much, this is the version I'll use in the mission:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xjb23rulei8iaj1/um6e T.craft?dl=0

it can put the load(core+shield+parachute+decoupler+clamp+adapter+panels) in a low orbit, but with no fuel.
These days I unsuccessfully did almost every combination adding tanks everywhere, in the center and on the radial engines, adding radial stages, etc..
can someone please tell me how do I optimize this ship in order to reach the orbit with that load and some fuel?
Do I have to add radial stages? reduce tanks size? less engines? what?
I think I'm not able to optimize it anymore and at every change I have to spend a lot of time landin and isru refuel.

Higher TWR engines + more tanks unfortunately. To leave the dV in the final stage untouched, you obviously need more dV in the earlier stages. So about 6000-7500dV in the stages below the final stage. You obviously have the bare minimum in your entire ship.

You'll have to redo your ship if having dV in the final stage is what you really want. Is that going to be worth the effort vs. pickup with a spacetug?

Based on this tool, Optimal Engine Chart, 10 aerospikes can just about get you ~3400dV with a payload of 2.12 tonnes, TWR 1.3 min, 1.5 ATM. (7km high mountain) This becomes ~4800dV in space so you have about 4300-4500dV of expendable dV over the total of your ascent. You need MOAR! 

Using the same tool will show you that Vectors, Mammoths and Mainsails are the only things that will let you pack >6000dv underneath the final stage. 

P.S. Pictures the next time + KER/MechJeb readout in the pics - everything above could have been written faster without opening KSP, if only there were some pretty pics.  

P.S.S Hyperedit saves alot of effort in ship testing. Or debug menu - orbit, infinite fuel, unbreakable joints, no crash damage, ignore heat. As necessary.

EDIT: This ascent stage will get you what you want. (Nope, I don't use Dropbox). Pod for easier kerbal piloted testing. Replace as required.

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Weywot8

[Spricigo]

3 hours ago, Weywot8 said:

P.S. Pictures the next time + KER/MechJeb readout in the pics - everything above could have been written faster without opening KSP, if only there were some pretty pics. 

I'm not alone  when I say: no pics,  no clicks. I simply don't risk download a craft file to find it have a fatal flaw  or is beyond my skill. It's not worth my time. 

[antipro]

ok sorry, next time pics.  =^.^=

Edited July 4, 2017 by antipro

[antipro]

what do you think about this config?

 

[Weywot8]

It'll almost certainly work if you can land it on a 7km mountain. It could probably work from quite a bit lower but that would eat into the final stage's dV. Of course, if there is no ore on that mountain...but that's not something we can help you with  

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

9 hours ago, antipro said:

what do you think about this config?

 

Watched your video on my phone, so it's not a great view, but it looks like you're going with 3 landers, and that you intend to drill and refuel on Eve and Moho. You're using the small drills (saving mass) and the small converter (saving mass and keeping the 1.25m profile). It also looks like you're going unmanned (unless you have a command seat hidden away somewhere; my phone's a piece of crap), and that the little probe core on top attaches to each lander and then will be the return craft to complete the contract of landing a single ship on each of the 6 bodies. Correct so far?

I don't know your exact mission profile (though it looks like you're going to Eve first, I think), but let me just say that I'd send a Kerbal on this mission just for the (fun and) personal satisfaction of it, but in your case, I would highly recommend it to expedite your mission. It would require a hefty redesign (don't know if you're up for that), but I think it'd be worth it. You've done a lot of testing on Eve (I assume with this very setup), so you must be acutely (and probably painfully) aware of how incredibly long it takes to refuel an unmanned ship with the small drills and converter. I would throw an Mk1 on top of that probe core, with a 5 star engineer onboard. You'd have to add a lot all the way down to accommodate the extra mass (maybe got to 4x symmetry?) but, for me, it'd be worth it. Or I'd just scrap the drills altogether and refuel at Minmus on the way out. Either would require a lot more work, so maybe just disregard this entirely.

[antipro]

Thx for your comments.
There are 2 landers only, the eve one and the interplanetary nuclear ship.
The plan is to reach eve low orbit with big engines, then eve land/takeoff, docking, gilly refuel, moho refuel, minmus refuel, mun refuel, kerbin.
I only have to do some tests on about how much fuel I need to carry in the interplanetary ship to land gilly from eve orbit.
Sending a kerbal is a good idea but I should have to reconfigure several things, adding stairs......I don't know, maybe.
 

[Spricigo]

33 minutes ago, antipro said:

Sending a kerbal is a good idea but I should have to reconfigure several things, adding stairs......I don't know, maybe.

Well, stair are only needed for Eve, the Jetpack is enough for the others bodies. Personally I try to have a open hatch near the bottom of the vessel where I can board and transfer the crew to the proper 'habitation space' before ditching that hatch. Sometimes just a docking port where I can dock a rover intended to stay at the celestial body. (except that I don't plan for extended manned operations at Eve, I'm not masochist)

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

20 hours ago, antipro said:

Thx for your comments.
There are 2 landers only, the eve one and the interplanetary nuclear ship.
The plan is to reach eve low orbit with big engines, then eve land/takeoff, docking, gilly refuel, moho refuel, minmus refuel, mun refuel, kerbin.
I only have to do some tests on about how much fuel I need to carry in the interplanetary ship to land gilly from eve orbit.
Sending a kerbal is a good idea but I should have to reconfigure several things, adding stairs......I don't know, maybe.
 

I wouldn't want you to change your entire mission (not to mention the ship itself) if your heart wasn't in it. Your mission profile is sound, and your ship looks good. I don't use the Nerv, so I'm not too familiar with it's capabilities, but if you've tested it then I'm sure you're good. I was curious about the 3x symmetry. It's something I've never used before. I'm guessing you were looking for a balance between mass and power. With 2x not having enough power and 4x being too heavy. That about right? Either way, it looks like a good ship.

As for bringing a Kerbal, it's just something I always do. Just makes things a bit more challenging and fun. In your case, I really do think it would be a good idea. The engineer will prove his worth each time you drop your drills. It'll make the experience a lot less tedious and frustrating, I think. And maybe the best reason of all (at least for this forum), is that it makes for much better screenshots. Your Kerbal standing next to the flag with his ship in the background always looks cool. Even if I've landed on that rock 100 times, I still see other people's screenshots and think they look cool. Just a thought.

As for the ladders, I agree with @Spricigo. You'd only need 'em for Eve. In fact, Eve, Tylo, and Laythe are the only places I use ladders at all (unless it's to make something look cooler). His suggestion of a lander can or other pod on the bottom of the ship is a good one, as well. I've taken to doing that on Eve myself, though it's sort of because I'm not good at putting ladders on ships that change fuselage size. When it goes from 3.75m to 2.5m (or 2.5 to 1.25), my Kerbals always get stuck on the slanted ladders. It'll work on Kerbin, but then they get stuck on the way up or on the way down. Very frustrating. Something I need to work on, obviously.

One last thing, your mission is one of those that get in your head and won't leave. I've been thinkin' about it since you first posted. In the middle of a million things, and there are about a million more I want to do after that (plus I work an insane amount of hours, and I've got 4 kids to boot), but I'm gonna try to make time for this one. It sounds like a lot of fun, and needing to land on Eve always ups the difficulty level of any mission. I know how I want to do it, and I'd really like to see if it'll work or not. If I do (whether successful or not), I'll definitely post it here.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[antipro]

34 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

I'm guessing you were looking for a balance between mass and power. With 2x not having enough power and 4x being too heavy. That about right?

Wikipedia: "The triangle is the figure with the smallest number of sides, since three are the minimum number of segments needed to delimit a closed surface"
Sounds cool no? I just think that triangle shaped are aesthetically cooler than 2 or 4 radials. This way the ship looks less like a rocket and more like an airplane/spaceship.

I've looked at the possibility to edit the vessel to allow a kerbal, but I give up, too many changes I dont wanna do.
I'm doing the last changes, I'll soon do the launch.