Guess what I just found out...

[Chel]

Hi, I'm writing this at school, in my Science class, and we're doing Biology this term. Not only that, but we're doing the WORST part of it: Dissection.

Starting next week, we'll start dissecting poor little animals, raised in cages, and then killed and sold to my school, for 'educational purposes' and 'learning enhancement with practical activities', as my science teacher puts it. I want to throw up right now. I want to run out of the room, and just run back home. I don't mind looking at the insides of animals, like through computer programs, or 3d models or whatever, but not physically slicing open an animal and looking at the different parts. That's too much for me. I'm going to email my teacher after school if I can work on something else or something, and not be doing this.

[Bill Phil]

But that's a part of growing up! 

I can understand why you're disturbed. It's not a great thing. But if it's part of the curriculum, it's part of the curriculum. My question is why didn't you know about this previously? It's basically a trope. Not only that, but it should have been in the syllabus... unless you didn't get one.

[qzgy]

Dissection (if you ask me) is flarping awesome.Yes, it sucks that an animal dies and now had been soaked in many chemicals for your curriculum. However, as someone who has lived through this part of a biology class, I can tell you some stuff you benefit it greatly be seeing it in person. Like for instance, they can tell in a manual "this part of the whatever looks like this and is identified by some structure or something" But most of the stuff just looks like one thing. Like a brain for instance. Its all just white kinda fleshy stuff. That's something not conveyed by a 3d model or diagram, since it's all nicely divided up into menus or whatever. I also personally find it fun to explore into something you never get to see normally. Like, you can't often see how the small intestine is wound up inside of the stomach, or how the diaphragm separates the lung and the heart in a pig, or how the lung, while described as an air filled sac, felt and acted more like one fleshy-thing in a fetal pig.

The way I looked at it is that the animal is dead. Dead is dead. Might as well make the best of it, you can't really have much sympathy.

I do have to say - I don't think it's a fully necessary part for education. You will probably be fine if you don't see a baby pig heart or cut open an animal. But, as mentioned above, is part of the curriculum.I also respect that you don't like it. That's fine, but this was my 2 cents.
I might just be cold and heartless.

Spoiler

No seriously. We had one time mealworms and cockroaches in our class for some behavioral thing. I got permission to... kill two specimens and dissect them because I wanted to see what was inside. Let me just say before I continue, that these were bought at a pet store or something similar, where the animals were going to die, for food. The mealworm and cockroach were procured alive, meaning they had to be killed. The way I did this was by literally drowning them in hydrocarbons. Think acetone and rubbing alcohol. Not very fun way to die, before being cut open by me. Also, I think one of them was not quite dead... yeah I'm not going to continue. At least anything you will dissect in a class is already dead.

 

Sorry. Also sorry if this violates any rules of the forum.

Out of curiosity - what are you dissecting and how are you at school?

Edited July 10, 2017 by qzgy

[pxi]

The school I went to actually raised the animals (rats) themselves.  However dissections were performed by the teacher, so a single animal was used to teach a full class.  I'm not sure if you're expected to perform the dissection yourself or if it will be similar to my experience - your post isn't entirely clear on that point.

If it's the students performing the dissections on a one-per-student basis I'm less comfortable with that scenario - seems overly wasteful to me tbh, much in the same way I'm generally 100% ok with hunting if you're going to eat the animal and opposed to trophy hunting - but on the whole I do think there is educational value in the practice, even if I did personally find it a bit uncomfortable to watch.

As for the animals themselves, sad as it may seem, this is what they were bred and fed for.  They wouldn't be around if not for this.

If you really don't want to participate, you could always conveniently be sick on the day.  Was very much a one-off demonstration in my day, and they're hardly going to keep the animal around for you to have a go at next class if you missed it - at least I'd be amazed if they did.

[WinkAllKerb'']

dissection is like hunting and butcher ... many peoples eat many stuffs but don't like the idea of doing the necessary job(s) beggining of the chain themselves ...

Edited July 10, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[tater]

If you eats things that used to have a face, this should not be a big deal. You might also find that you like it---what if this turned out to be an event that shows your real avocation is to be a surgeon?

I know my wife thought dissection was cool, and now she's a surgeon.

[kerbiloid]

Happily I studied in a civilized, Soviet school, and had no need in such barbarian, sadistic practice.
All creatures to be sliced had already been sliced and were floating in their glasses or pictured in a schoolbook. As decades before.

Why kill somebody if you don't want to eat it and it doesn't want to eat you? _{Though, maybe it does, but definitely can't.}
How many of the children will really need to be killing _{or operating} their food or so, that they make them all do this?
Anybody doubts that a frog heart will keep beating after dissection?

(No, I'm not a pacifist, even close. And in university campus was killing mice with bare hands. 
_{I remember their faces, they're like alive when I close my eyes..} 
But they wanted my food and were spoiling my things.)

Edited July 10, 2017 by kerbiloid

[Tex_NL]

Just like almost anybody here I have to agree it's part of life. I can understand some people feel uncomfortable dissecting an animal. But if you can't handle a small dead critter you're in for a shock. Eventually life will deal you something far worse.

Personally I found dissections fascinating. We didn't have rats or frogs, instead we dissected pig hearts and cow eyes.

And yes, I am a true carnivore. As long as an animal is raised and slaughtered humanly I have absolutely no issues eating meat. I live in a relatively rural area and every spring the fields are overflowing with newborn lamb. People often call me an insensitive prick when I call those woolly critters fresh lamb-chops. But that's what they're raised for: wool and meat. I love to see them in the fields just as much as seeing them on my plate.

Edit:
And now that I think of it. If you REALLY have issues with it (moral, ethical, religious, whatever) talk to your teacher/councillor about it. Don't just tell him/her you don't want to do it but explain why and ask for an alternative. I seriously doubt you'll be the first. And if a teacher truly cares for his/her students he/she will be open for discussion.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Tex_NL

[WinkAllKerb'']

bah tree(flora) eat most animal on the long run after all (a way or another) ... it's such a long process than  most don't even notice it ... they eat us slowly and then make us breath faster ^^

i guess i m gonna freedive 2min++ to the see bed and think about it ^^ i just hate dislike so much this commonly shared MeMeselftimespan Size//Scale way of thinkin'

in fact flora also "metaphorically" and timespan & laps related dissect animal ^^ i m not sure/convinced at all anyone could find anithing wrong with that ^^

Edited July 10, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[Kerbal101]

A week ago, a bird fled into apartment of friend mine - and her cat immediately jumped onto it with all its weight. Just few seconds later my friend was crying and fighting with the cat to save the bird. Unfortunately, the cat has managed to break birds neck and it died in her hands... She was so pissed off, that the cat was granted a raging storm of bad words and locked up in the closed as punishment for few hours...

 

This reminded me of human psychology lesson from the old tale of Hodja Nasreddin, which I read in my youth.
Basically, some children run up to Hodja and asked him to divide the nuts amongst them properly.
"How do you want them divided - by God's way, or by human way". "By God's way, ofc" they cried.
So Hodja has thrown them all into the air and told the children to catch them. The most agile got several, but good half of them got none.
"This does not feel right" argued those. "All right, then give them back to me and I will do it the human way" - and he divided the nuts between the children equally.

 

Basically, this contradiction is present in many aspects of different human civilizations. And some of the "God method" followers are known to commit horrible crimes

[WinkAllKerb'']

hey kerbal101:

you know 10 000 , 20 000 ago (well number are not really important here but), there was that family growing lamb to make wear for winter, in the other seasons no one was exchanging goods with this family planning for winter and they almost starved before winter, then at some point some figured out winter without lamb wear was kinda annoyin' so exchange was slowly replaced with money

it's a medium to save usefull thing not something to accumulate for the sack of accumulating it, i mean moan hey of curse ... but well that's a few thousand ago ...

still nowdays it seem we use money a lot, but feel free to prove me the ratio of thoose that use it not forgetting it's prime purpose (ouroboros where ?)

the contradiction is the amount of thing we're taught so often forgeting the prime meaning and purpose amongst ages "frank&stein hell heck try city New cells art"

in the same spirit i kinda like this one: "eat your soup gonna make you growth" ; remind ; pre 1900 tooth decease ... well eat all thoose thing before your touth fall or kill you or before your unable to eat anithing else but soup .... still nowdays who say "eat your soup gonna make you growth" reminding what it was really meaning a century ONLY ago ...

Edited July 13, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''
*shrug*

[Just Jim]

I'm a little weird... On the one hand I hate killing anything. Seriously, I feel guilty setting up a rat trap... even though they're rats. But if something is already dead, it doesn't bother me nearly so much, and I never really had a problem dissecting frogs or whatever for biology class... especially if it meant learning something.

 

14 minutes ago, Kerbal101 said:

A week ago, a bird fled into apartment of friend mine - and her cat immediately jumped onto it with all its weight. Just few seconds later my friend was crying and fighting with the cat to save the bird. Unfortunately, the cat has managed to break birds neck and it died in her hands...

We get this in my backyard now and then. We have several bird feeders, and three big bird baths, and lots of birds at any given moment. We also have a few semi-resident / semi-wild outside "garden" cats, so to speak. They're not mine, but they're sleek and well fed and I'm pretty sure someone else around here owns them, but they like our backyard mostly for the bird baths, which I refill daily and they can get a drink whenever they like.

Unfortunately this also means every now and then one will catch a bird or squirrel... But I came to realize long ago you can't blame the cat for being a cat... they're natural hunters, it's what they do. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Just Jim

[Kerbart]

11 hours ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

Starting next week, we'll start dissecting poor little animals, raised in cages, and then killed and sold to my school, for 'educational purposes' and 'learning enhancement with practical activities', as my science teacher puts it. I want to throw up right now. I want to run out of the room, and just run back home. I don't mind looking at the insides of animals, like through computer programs, or 3d models or whatever, but not physically slicing open an animal and looking at the different parts. That's too much for me.

This is how "science" learned about the inner working of our bodies: by looking what's inside.

Science is not just about reading book at looking at computer models. In the end, it's related to real world things and events. A dissection is useful in that sense, that it will remind you that it's real creatures you're reading and learning about in class. What you can discuss if it's something everyone has to do personally—I remember from biology classes in high school that our teacher was dissecting a chicken (and we were more than happy that it was "just a demo" and not a hands-on experience for ourselves), but it was amazing to see how everything was organized on the inside and how things look in real life and not just in a text book.

You do chemistry experiments, and physics experiments. Graduating with a biology curriculum but not having seen a single dissection...  I consider that a disservice to the students.

[WinkAllKerb'']

beings are a whole universe for smaller being's inside them and while there often part of bigger beings themselves, i m curious to ask a paramecia where it's own universe end or start ^^ kinda that kerbart yup ^^

beings & entities are something weird to describ, define and consider ; somehow ;

in the same spirit the past few month i was asking myself since when elders say "frankly, the season cycle is totally broke" (décidément, y a plus de saison) ... i do wonder where/when we can find first record of that gimmick, then come the rate and eventually mono oriented vs balance/equilibrium stuffs, anyway it could also just be another 'lap'

Edited July 10, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[Benjamin Kerman]

For me, i dont mind. It was mostly the smell that got to me...

[Kerbal101]

14 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

Unfortunately this also means every now and then one will catch a bird or squirrel... But I came to realize long ago you can't blame the cat for being a cat... they're natural hunters, it's what they do. 

Yes, this was also my reaction, a cat acted in its nature, but likewise does the biology teacher in regards to bissecting. Still, I prefer to keep the whole equation (conflict) in mind, instead of just the result - as this allows equation to adapt to situation.

Thus, ultimately, I prefer to solve the formula with the "minimize the harm" outcome In that sense, if I were there, I would try to save the bird, but would not blame the cat either.

[WinkAllKerb'']

well if you dissect a few animal beings in school and then become a Veterinary physician and save tons ... who knows ... just call the ones you dissect in school "little jesus" for their kinds ^^

"sacrifice" not necessarly bring worst thing long run, even if it's hard to assume from an egotic related to sum aspect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice but this tend to fall under semantic over ages and "self 'counsciouness' "concerns

Edited July 10, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[kerbiloid]

25 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

This is how "science" learned about the inner working of our bodies: by looking what's inside.

After numerous times watching mom cooking a hen (unfrozen from shop or market, not executed right in the kitchen), why somebody needs dissecting innocent and inedible animals in school?

And what new except a beating heart could see I inside a killed frog what I hadn't previously seen inside a hen?

P.S.
Cats are awesome. They invented how to milk the cows, but as do this with paws is inconvenient, they domesticated a human.

Edited July 10, 2017 by kerbiloid

[Chel]

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Cats are awesome

An excellent point sir!

[TheSaint]

I remember doing dissections in biology. I wasn't particularly fond of them, but I made it through.

9 hours ago, tater said:

If you eats things that used to have a face, this should not be a big deal. You might also find that you like it---what if this turned out to be an event that shows your real avocation is to be a surgeon?

I know my wife thought dissection was cool, and now she's a surgeon.

My wife is a physical therapist, she did cadaver dissections in her anatomy labs in grad school. Her lab group's cadaver was a little old lady who had donated her body to science. They knew her first name and everything. This is how I know I would have never made it very far in the medical field, because I'm fairly convinced that they would have dragged me out of there feet first on the first day.

7 hours ago, Kerbal101 said:

A week ago, a bird fled into apartment of friend mine - and her cat immediately jumped onto it with all its weight. Just few seconds later my friend was crying and fighting with the cat to save the bird. Unfortunately, the cat has managed to break birds neck and it died in her hands... She was so liquided off, that the cat was granted a raging storm of bad words and locked up in the closed as punishment for few hours...

Our cat is a bird assassin. I was just out in the back yard cleaning up two more examples of her handiwork last night. Cats will be cats....

[cratercracker]

I remember a lot of bad things..

I remember how I saw a dude lying on the floor with half of his face torn of off and with shrapnel all over his body, mumbling something..about his parents, friends or whatever..

This dude who go himself on fire.. he screamed for 4 minutes, non-stop and then just passed out..

But you know what? I didn't threw up, I thought "It is humans, they deserve a torture way worse than that, including me"

But when I see animals dissected, that is some gruesome crap.

I feel you, broh..

[StupidAndy]

I was supposed to do a dissection but I forgot the form

[qzgy]

22 minutes ago, cratercracker said:

I remember a lot of bad things..

I remember how I saw a dude lying on the floor with half of his face torn of off and with shrapnel all over his body, mumbling something..about his parents, friends or whatever..

This dude who go himself on fire.. he screamed for 4 minutes, non-stop and then just passed out..

But you know what? I didn't threw up, I thought "It is humans, they deserve a torture way worse than that, including me"

But when I see animals dissected, that is some gruesome crap.

I feel you, broh..

Where do you live and what have you done to see that kind of stuff?

Also, not all humans deserve to die a painful death....

[WinkAllKerb'']

i used to know two elder wich died approximately at the same ages (around 80-85 or so):

one had a healthy life till the end and died in 3 hour in the hosptial, this elder was doing every daily task alone but the last day

the others spent 7 years at home with diabet, in an hospital bed wich replaced the sofa, close to unable to move from the bed but twice a week with medical officer to brought this elder to hosptial for the blood stuff (dialyse i guess but not sure of the english word)

quantifying pain is something tricky, is it related to time, amount or anithing else ? is pain only a nervous physical feelings, could it be something else more psychological, is one worst from the others & etc ...

also "deserving"(?) a painfull death is kinda a weird concept, i mean will it make anyone feeling better short/medium/long run if it kill someone else painfully or not ? it's a bit weird imho, notice that personnaly i m not convinced if life is more or less painfull than death itself, many writer also metaphorically describe death as "delivrance"

Edited July 10, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[razark]

I was the one who brought his own dissecting kit to class.

 

Think of it this way:  Whether you are involved or not, the animal is already dead.  You refusing to do the lesson isn't going to save anything, so you might as well learn from it.