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fredinno

How would we colonize Mars if it was inhabited?

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Here is a basic scenario: Mars is a habitable tundra-cold desert planet with a habitable atmosphere with a similar composition and pressure to Earth's.

Different biomes cover the different latitudes:

Poles+ Subarctic: Ice caps

Temperate: Tundra

Tropical: Boreal Forest, Dry Grassland- sometimes wetter temperate forests where climatic conditions make it possible.

 

There are human- like Aliens of similar technological level to nomadic American first nations in 1000AD. They are of common biological ancestry.

 

The year is 2100. We have the capability to colonize Mars, however, the fact it is already inhabited (in a sense) is a... problem.

 

How would humanity act? I'm not talking about specific nations, or superpowers here (b/c no politics rule), I'm talking about a general RANGE of attitudes from inaginary POSSIBLE colonizing organizations.

 

 

Would it be spearheaded by private corporations? Small Nations trying to become great powers? Who would be the colonizers? Lower class people in developed nations? Upper class people in developing nations?

 

What about the 'people' already living there? Do we 'buy' out their land into reservations gradually? Do we fight them? Do we try to keep our colonies compact? How long can both sides aboid conflict.

 

NO POLITICS OR FLAME WARS. PLEASE.

Edited by fredinno

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Our societies would, at best, merge and gradually meld together into general human/alien Martian culture. There will probably be a lot less regional diversity in culture as globalization will be quite prevalent because Earth-Mars rockets can land in almost any region and the planet is smaller.

There will probably be conflicts similar to those in the great American westward expansion, but hopefully we can look back and avoid at least some of our mistakes.

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If there's one lesson that's important to know about these things:

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Manifest destiny may continue, and exploiting the Martian moons for resources will be pretty lucrative.

Just now, kerbiloid said:

Do they have oil?

No, but the people of Titan do.

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10 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Our societies would, at best, merge and gradually meld together into general human/alien Martian culture. There will probably be a lot less regional diversity in culture as globalization will be quite prevalent because Earth-Mars rockets can land in almost any region and the planet is smaller.

There will probably be conflicts similar to those in the great American westward expansion, but hopefully we can look back and avoid at least some of our mistakes.

Like in South America? Maybe. But what if there are much less, like in North America?

Regional Diversity would likely decline, but remember that rocket travel is still hard. Hopping small distances is possible, but intercontinental travel requires about as much you would need to get to Martian Orbit (more if you include precision landing). So I would expect there to still be dominant "types" of cultures, especially in different "national land claims".

 

New York to Caracas was probably easier than New York to London, and yet developed completely different cultures.

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29 minutes ago, fredinno said:

 

Regional Diversity would likely decline, but remember that rocket travel is still hard. Hopping small distances is possible, but intercontinental travel requires about as much you would need to get to Martian Orbit (more if you include precision landing). So I would expect there to still be dominant "types" of cultures, especially in different "national land claims".

I'm thinking there might be something like a hyperloop or maglev (vacuum tunnel is hardly necessary on a nearly airless world) that would be developed that would allow fast travel between regions without rockets. That plus internet and the already globalised humans migrating there would make for a pretty uniform global culture.

Of course if Earthly nations start making land claims (or even if factions arise on Mars itself) and travel between these colonies becomes more difficult as a result, then there would surely be different colonial cultures similarly to the cultures of the colonial Americas.

33 minutes ago, fredinno said:

Like in South America? Maybe. But what if there are much less, like in North America?

 

Not sure what part you are referring to here. Could you elaborate?

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Spread disease and war the leftovers, obviously.

 

Either that or "dang, they looks great, let's leave them alone, find something else !".

Although, given the "tundra", might be going in like czars/tzars.

Edited by YNM

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So take something that we're already resolutely not doing for a host of practical and economic reasons, and add a small ethical speedbump? Sure, I guess we would continue not colonizing Mars in that case. We might even tell the Martians it was because we had so much respect for their sovereignty and autonomy.

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2 hours ago, cubinator said:

I'm thinking there might be something like a hyperloop or maglev (vacuum tunnel is hardly necessary on a nearly airless world) that would be developed that would allow fast travel between regions without rockets. That plus internet and the already globalised humans migrating there would make for a pretty uniform global culture.

Of course if Earthly nations start making land claims (or even if factions arise on Mars itself) and travel between these colonies becomes more difficult as a result, then there would surely be different colonial cultures similarly to the cultures of the colonial Americas.

Not sure what part you are referring to here. Could you elaborate?

... a HABITABLE Mars would have air pressure similar to Earth, or at least 80-90 %. Meaning Maglevs would be about the same speed as on Earth. Maglevs can only reach 603 km/h, and require expensive tracking that won't be viable on Mars until cultures and colonies have fully developed. Sea, road, and conventional Rail are cheap, and are the primary modes of transportand will likely remain so, because cost is much more important than speed in a world where most people still don't regularly travel cross-country, and cargo generally doesn't care how long it takes to get there.

 

I'm talking about Native influence. South America, there tended to be a lot more natives around, and the colonists regularly interbreeded. That might be the case in the equilateral region (thus creating a sort of new species), but everywhere else, there isn't going to be many mixed race people, or native influence, like in North America.

2 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

So take something that we're already resolutely not doing for a host of practical and economic reasons, and add a small ethical speedbump? Sure, I guess we would continue not colonizing Mars in that case. We might even tell the Martians it was because we had so much respect for their sovereignty and autonomy.

A Mars with a breathable atmosphere and easily farmable land and regularly flowing water is much more appealing and makes colonies much more easily sustainable than OTL Mars- which would essentially be like Vostok Base, except cooler, and millions of kms away from Earth. And no breathable atmosphere.

 

You could get stranded in this Mars, and reasonably survive, you won't on OTL Mars, unless you're Matt Damon.

 

Of course, we could just robot our way into this entire thing, and colonize Mars with robots. Bu that opens a whole new can of worms.

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Keeping politics out of this discussion will prove to be *very* hard...

Before the last US-election, I would have replied that we (the UN) would be discussing colonisation until well in the 2200's. After that we would probably go for a small (but quite heavily armed) research outpost somewhere in a remote area. There will be contact with the inhabitants. We would never go "Avatar" on them.

Now, I am not sure that would never happen.:(

Edited by 1of6Billion

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7 minutes ago, 1of6Billion said:

Keeping politics out of this discussion will prove to be *very* hard...

Before the last US-election, I would have replied that we (the UN) would be discussing colonisation until well in the 2200's. After that we would probably go for a small (but quite heavily armed) research outpost somewhere in a remote area. There will be contact with the inhabitants. We would never go "Avatar" on them.

Now, I am not sure that would never happen.:(

Please do. I don't want to have this thread locked.

 

I said 2100, because of the association with @ChrisSpace's Alternate Solar System. I disagree, and think that even OTL Mars would have at least 1 or 2 bases on Mars by the end of the century. At least I hope

Edited by fredinno

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(A lot of letters).

Spoiler

Plan A.
They are of the same ancestry, so they are cursed heretics temporarily escaped from the righteous anger.
Outdated. More or less.

Plan B.
They are noble/backward savages thirsting_for/afraid_of our Great Civilized Culture. We must help/help them.
Disproved.
Happily, now we all know that all cultures are equal.
Native Martians just chose a natural way of civilization development, which is even more wise than our aimless technofetishism.
We should learn from them how to live in a harmony with the Nature.

Plan C.
Classified.
Prohibited by Geneva conventions.

Plan D.
Just trade with them.
As nobody would bring oil or metals from Mars, and the furs from Martian tundra unlikely would be legal in the vegan society, this would be a anisotropic trade. When one partner brings goods and sells them for free. 
Of course, they could sell their lands, but unlikely there will be enough religious farmers to need lands on Mars for such price.


So.

After the first Martian expedition had exhausted all funds of world space agenices, the second flight to Mars will happen seventy years later.
They will see absolutely accurate clones of the first expedition lander(s), made of regolith, moss and schkrunchugga (you really don't want to know, what's the latter). 
And 25/7 duty of Martian shamans wearing spacesuits made of tree bark and bladders.
After the second expedition gets out and bring beautiful and tasty gifts, everybody on Mars will be ensured in their priests' power. They called the skypeople back from the skies!

As both lines of humanity had gotten developed separatedly, they would have different diseases, harmless for ours/theirs, but deadly for theirs/ours.
So, a severe quarantine should be established until this problem gets solved.

Also, as (given in OP) there is tundra on Mars, and not much sugar in plants, the Martians should face the same problems as tundra dwellers on the Earth: diet with insufficient carbohydrates makes the body to consume a piece of bread as a handful of sugar, which cause problems with carbohydrate balance.
Also this means than they are intolerant (not that they reject, but just are vulnerable) to alcohol, as they just have no materials, nor enough heat to produce it massively.

So, Prohibition and Abstinence will be the motto of the Martian Trading Post...

...until some technician will treat his Martian friend to his self-made moonshine, and then he tells his friends about the magic water...

... then somebody will make love, not war, and this will totally devalue all these funny attempts to kill Cassini with fire to prevent infecting a lifeless icy moon near Saturn. 


After MTP (Martian Trading Post) was renamed to MMTP (Martian Medical-and-Trading Post), the intercultural contacts will widen and strengthen. 
Just by necessity: it's more fun being cured together.

The Omniplanetary Quarantine will be screwed down and forgotten, as anyway the genie had escaped from the bottle.

The tribes closer to the MMTP will become more peacuful, but then become an object of distant tribes attacks. 
Also this will be caused because the first expedition would probably land in a village of peaceful fishers, rather than between cannibals wearing necklaces made of skulls. 
So, those cannibals will feel overlooked and frustrated.

This will make MMTP personnel to defend their Martian close counterparts from their aggressive neighbours.
As the MMTP personnel has fliers and doesn't need to chase the attackers by dog sledding or jungle pathfinding as in XIX century, this defence will be finished with intertribal boundaries delimitation and forcedly voluntary demilitarization.

MMTP will be renamed to MMMTP (Martian Military-and-Medical-and-Trading Post).
In addition to the medical personnel, technicians and traders(?), some soldiers mercenaries field security specialists will arrive to support the automatic turrets and signalization.

This will make the process run faster. Planet of War will become planet of Love.

Two decades later the MMMTP personnel will consist mostly of Gallo-Romans Marterrans which from one side will be rised above the Martian tribes living far away from MMMTP, and from another side still get preferences from the Earth government, just because Martian life really requires this.

Everyone on Mars will dream to get employed by MMMTP, and everyone who can't will hate MMMTP for this.
This will make different MMMTP consolidate and establish their government and police control over all the planet, to redistribute the humanitarian aid more or less evenly and to prevent intertribal conflicts.

They probably will declare themselves as Independent Martian Dominion under the Supreme Power of Terra, which allows them to keep the Earth loyal and to keep the Mars stable.

Then there will be centuries of a dull provincial life, as for Mars there is nothing significant to sell to Earth, and for Earth there is nothing significant to capture on Mars.

Martian youths will be dreaming for the Earth metropolitan magnificence, but not all fo them would be able to live there due to biology (different gravity, metabolism, etc.) and background (foreign culture).

So, most successful will be the Marterran people which can extend their comfort zone around both planets.
As the "pure" Martians will look not exotic for them, the mixed Marterran culture will digest the native Martian culture.

So, centuries later in the United Imperial Parliament (on the Earth) there will be 90% Terrans and a 10% fraction of Marterrans. Mars will be partially independent, but native Martians will be culturally absorbed by the Marterran culture.

 

Edited by kerbiloid

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Yes we can, im pretty sure people who are smart enough to actually go to Mars are quite civilzed to alien life.

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2 minutes ago, NSEP said:

Yes we can, im pretty sure people who are smart enough to actually go to Mars are quite civilzed to alien life.

I highly doubt that.
If Mars had human-like alien inhabitants this would mean it must also have an earth-like atmosphere. This would make colonizing Mars incredibly easy. Sure, you would still have to make a long and treacherous journey through the void of space but once there life would get pretty easy. No (or very limited) special habitats or suits needed. No need to take years worth provisions with you as you could live off the land.
In other words, we would have already settled Mars decades ago during the height of the cold war and we would have brought our politics with us.

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10 minutes ago, Tex_NL said:

I highly doubt that.
If Mars had human-like alien inhabitants this would mean it must also have an earth-like atmosphere. This would make colonizing Mars incredibly easy. Sure, you would still have to make a long and treacherous journey through the void of space but once there life would get pretty easy. No (or very limited) special habitats or suits needed. No need to take years worth provisions with you as you could live off the land.
In other words, we would have already settled Mars decades ago during the height of the cold war and we would have brought our politics with us.

Yeah, thats true.

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10 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

(A lot of letters).

  Hide contents

Plan A.
They are of the same ancestry, so they are cursed heretics temporarily escaped from the righteous anger.
Outdated. More or less.

Plan B.
They are noble/backward savages thirsting_for/afraid_of our Great Civilized Culture. We must help/help them.
Disproved.
Happily, now we all know that all cultures are equal.
Native Martians just chose a natural way of civilization development, which is even more wise than our aimless technofetishism.
We should learn from them how to live in a harmony with the Nature.

Plan C.
Classified.
Prohibited by Geneva conventions.

Plan D.
Just trade with them.
As nobody would bring oil or metals from Mars, and the furs from Martian tundra unlikely would be legal in the vegan society, this would be a anisotropic trade. When one partner brings goods and sells them for free. 
Of course, they could sell their lands, but unlikely there will be enough religious farmers to need lands on Mars for such price.


So.

After the first Martian expedition had exhausted all funds of world space agenices, the second flight to Mars will happen seventy years later.
They will see absolutely accurate clones of the first expedition lander(s), made of regolith, moss and schkrunchugga (you really don't want to know, what's the latter). 
And 25/7 duty of Martian shamans wearing spacesuits made of tree bark and bladders.
After the second expedition gets out and bring beautiful and tasty gifts, everybody on Mars will be ensured in their priests' power. They called the skypeople back from the skies!

As both lines of humanity had gotten developed separatedly, they would have different diseases, harmless for ours/theirs, but deadly for theirs/ours.
So, a severe quarantine should be established until this problem gets solved.

Also, as (given in OP) there is tundra on Mars, and not much sugar in plants, the Martians should face the same problems as tundra dwellers on the Earth: diet with insufficient carbohydrates makes the body to consume a piece of bread as a handful of sugar, which cause problems with carbohydrate balance.
Also this means than they are intolerant (not that they reject, but just are vulnerable) to alcohol, as they just have no materials, nor enough heat to produce it massively.

So, Prohibition and Abstinence will be the motto of the Martian Trading Post...

...until some technician will treat his Martian friend to his self-made moonshine, and then he tells his friends about the magic water...

... then somebody will make love, not war, and this will totally devalue all these funny attempts to kill Cassini with fire to prevent infecting a lifeless icy moon near Saturn. 


After MTP (Martian Trading Post) was renamed to MMTP (Martian Medical-and-Trading Post), the intercultural contacts will widen and strengthen. 
Just by necessity: it's more fun being cured together.

The Omniplanetary Quarantine will be screwed down and forgotten, as anyway the genie had escaped from the bottle.

The tribes closer to the MMTP will become more peacuful, but then become an object of distant tribes attacks. 
Also this will be caused because the first expedition would probably land in a village of peaceful fishers, rather than between cannibals wearing necklaces made of skulls. 
So, those cannibals will feel overlooked and frustrated.

This will make MMTP personnel to defend their Martian close counterparts from their aggressive neighbours.
As the MMTP personnel has fliers and doesn't need to chase the attackers by dog sledding or jungle pathfinding as in XIX century, this defence will be finished with intertribal boundaries delimitation and forcedly voluntary demilitarization.

MMTP will be renamed to MMMTP (Martian Military-and-Medical-and-Trading Post).
In addition to the medical personnel, technicians and traders(?), some soldiers mercenaries field security specialists will arrive to support the automatic turrets and signalization.

This will make the process run faster. Planet of War will become planet of Love.

Two decades later the MMMTP personnel will consist mostly of Gallo-Romans Marterrans which from one side will be rised above the Martian tribes living far away from MMMTP, and from another side still get preferences from the Earth government, just because Martian life really requires this.

Everyone on Mars will dream to get employed by MMMTP, and everyone who can't will hate MMMTP for this.
This will make different MMMTP consolidate and establish their government and police control over all the planet, to redistribute the humanitarian aid more or less evenly and to prevent intertribal conflicts.

They probably will declare themselves as Independent Martian Dominion under the Supreme Power of Terra, which allows them to keep the Earth loyal and to keep the Mars stable.

Then there will be centuries of a dull provincial life, as for Mars there is nothing significant to sell to Earth, and for Earth there is nothing significant to capture on Mars.

Martian youths will be dreaming for the Earth metropolitan magnificence, but not all fo them would be able to live there due to biology (different gravity, metabolism, etc.) and background (foreign culture).

So, most successful will be the Marterran people which can extend their comfort zone around both planets.
As the "pure" Martians will look not exotic for them, the mixed Marterran culture will digest the native Martian culture.

So, centuries later in the United Imperial Parliament (on the Earth) there will be 90% Terrans and a 10% fraction of Marterrans. Mars will be partially independent, but native Martians will be culturally absorbed by the Marterran culture.

 

 

10 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Happily, now we all know that all cultures are equal.

...I'm going to say that's not really a view shared amongst the right in general- citing things like Muslims throwing gays off roofs, cited as part of the 'culture' of Islamic Middle Eastern culture.

So Plan B is still possible under a somewhat more limited extent, depending on the politics of a colony.

 

Which would provide some interesting population mechanics between the more tolerant and less tolerant colonies.

Quote

They will see absolutely accurate clones of the first expedition lander(s), made of regolith, moss and schkrunchugga (you really don't want to know, what's the latter). 
And 25/7 duty of Martian shamans wearing spacesuits made of tree bark and bladders.

Why? Is it that hard to make basic fabrics on Mars with 3D printing?

 

Quote

As both lines of humanity had gotten developed separatedly, they would have different diseases, harmless for ours/theirs, but deadly for theirs/ours.
So, a severe quarantine should be established until this problem gets solved.

Far bigger problem for "them", than "us"- I would think. Americaplague never happened, despite medical technology being BAD in Europe at the time, until mid to late Victorian era.

Quote

Also, as (given in OP) there is tundra on Mars, and not much sugar in plants, the Martians should face the same problems as tundra dwellers on the Earth: diet with insufficient carbohydrates makes the body to consume a piece of bread as a handful of sugar, which cause problems with carbohydrate balance.

Wouldn't they evolve to the different conditions?

 

In any case, "tundra" more or less describes the temperate regions. Grassland and Boreal Forest cover areas closer to the equator, and even temperate rainforest, if you're lucky.

I'm going to add that now. It's not reasonable to assume the entire planet is a single biome.

 

 

Are you assuming Earth is one national entity for your timeline, a swarm of private or public entities...?

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1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Why? Is it that hard to make basic fabrics on Mars with 3D printing?

When the Terrans from the first expedition got away and didn't return, the Martians tried all available possibilities,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

https://www.google.ru/search?q=cargo-cult&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1-JeejarVAhUjG5oKHUIaDoAQ_AUICigB

And as you can see, it works! Terrans returned!

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Far bigger problem for "them", than "us"- I would think.

Not necessary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_syphilis

(As it seems to me, both worlds just had their own, then exchanged).

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Wouldn't they evolve to the different conditions?

They evolved. This is what happened with (at least some of them) tundra peoples on Earth.
They have much protein and fat in their food, but insufficient carbohydrates.
So, they can eat the meat as much as gets inside, excess of proteins and fats doesn't harm them much, but at the same time their organism extracts any available carbohydrates from the food. And any excess of carbohydrates causes diabetes and so more easily.

So, a European eating tundra food suffers from lack of carbohydrates and excess of proteins.
While a European diet (with a lot of carbohydrates: bread, sugar, fruits) for a tundra dweller is like eating sugar with a spoon for a European. Sometimes this causes problems.

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Are you assuming Earth is one national entity for your timeline, a swarm of private or public entities...?

In my timeline, the natural processes of automation, unification and virtualization will leave humans with a lot of time, but a few of money.
This will force overurbanization processes (because it's cheaper to deliver things across a cube, rather than across a square, and nobody will have choice without a salary) and global economical collapse.
Then almost all (survived) humanity will live in several tens megalopolises (arcology or not, doesn't matter). I wouldn't wish to stay between the non-urbanized part of humanity...
These megalopolises which will mostly deal with each other, will be enough small to be destroyed with one little attack, .due to this they will be overprotected (as armies will surround exactly them to defend).
The next step will be their planetary confederation of megalopolises.

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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

In my timeline, the natural processes of automation, unification and virtualization will leave humans with a lot of time, but a few of money.
This will force overurbanization processes (because it's cheaper to deliver things across a cube, rather than across a square, and nobody will have choice without a salary) and global economical collapse.
Then almost all (survived) humanity will live in several tens megalopolises (arcology or not, doesn't matter). I wouldn't wish to stay between the non-urbanized part of humanity...
These megalopolises which will mostly deal with each other, will be enough small to be destroyed with one little attack, .due to this they will be overprotected (as armies will surround exactly them to defend).
The next step will be their planetary confederation of megalopolises.

I don't get this.  How are megalopolises supposed to solve the problem of automation?

Edited by fredinno

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8 hours ago, Tex_NL said:

I highly doubt that.
If Mars had human-like alien inhabitants this would mean it must also have an earth-like atmosphere. This would make colonizing Mars incredibly easy. Sure, you would still have to make a long and treacherous journey through the void of space but once there life would get pretty easy. No (or very limited) special habitats or suits needed. No need to take years worth provisions with you as you could live off the land.
In other words, we would have already settled Mars decades ago during the height of the cold war and we would have brought our politics with us.

True, we would already had an manned mars mission and probably bases. An colony as in an off world base if Earth get destroyed would be tempting and even practical.
it would be much like colonizing Alaska. 

However the American colonization analogy don't match well. Even with something like ITS you would be limited to some thousand migrant each year.
Transport cost would still be high, you had to be wealth or have some pay for the trip as you had employment on Mars. 
You would not get the millions of desperate people out to get farmland, most colonists would want an higher standard of living even if you had commercial flights and the desperate could not pay for it.
Add that Mars has little to export to Earth as cost would be too high, yes you could add an plot device an plant with very good medical properties who could not be grown on earth or synthesized, but it would not be sugar or cotton, return cargo would be some tons not many shiploads. 

Mars is lucky as its still hunter gatherers perhaps with some limited farming. Had they had kingdoms you would get cold war diplomacy in full force. The US sky goods give the king weapon and ask him to start an war against the Soviet influenced kingdom. You would use the local as guides and cheap labor, an steel knife would be an legendary artifact so digging ditches for an week would be an rip of from the local point of view.
That is until they find how to do metalworking :)  

I find it likely that the locals will out-breed the colonists once they get some sort of civilization running, humans is likely to promote this, both for their own benefit and to help the locals. 

https://smstirling.com/books/the-sky-people/ and https://smstirling.com/books/in-the-courts-of-the-crimson-kings/ 
Is much based on this setting, aliens teraformed mars and venus long ago added various animals from earth up to humans. 
The space race never ended, you have an base with some hundred on Mars and Venus,  Venus is mostly stone age with some bronze age civilizations, Mars is much more advanced but no industrial revolution. 
 

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13 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

True, we would already had an manned mars mission and probably bases. An colony as in an off world base if Earth get destroyed would be tempting and even practical.
it would be much like colonizing Alaska. 

However the American colonization analogy don't match well. Even with something like ITS you would be limited to some thousand migrant each year.
Transport cost would still be high, you had to be wealth or have some pay for the trip as you had employment on Mars. 
You would not get the millions of desperate people out to get farmland, most colonists would want an higher standard of living even if you had commercial flights and the desperate could not pay for it.
Add that Mars has little to export to Earth as cost would be too high, yes you could add an plot device an plant with very good medical properties who could not be grown on earth or synthesized, but it would not be sugar or cotton, return cargo would be some tons not many shiploads. 

Mars is lucky as its still hunter gatherers perhaps with some limited farming. Had they had kingdoms you would get cold war diplomacy in full force. The US sky goods give the king weapon and ask him to start an war against the Soviet influenced kingdom. You would use the local as guides and cheap labor, an steel knife would be an legendary artifact so digging ditches for an week would be an rip of from the local point of view.
That is until they find how to do metalworking :)  

I find it likely that the locals will out-breed the colonists once they get some sort of civilization running, humans is likely to promote this, both for their own benefit and to help the locals. 

https://smstirling.com/books/the-sky-people/ and https://smstirling.com/books/in-the-courts-of-the-crimson-kings/ 
Is much based on this setting, aliens teraformed mars and venus long ago added various animals from earth up to humans. 
The space race never ended, you have an base with some hundred on Mars and Venus,  Venus is mostly stone age with some bronze age civilizations, Mars is much more advanced but no industrial revolution. 
 

The government might sponsor flights and training if the prospect of a colony is profitable enough. Which would require very cheap rockets, and would likely be mostly cash crops at first, since non biological matter is easy to get on the Moon.

But yeah, Russian Alaska is likely a good analogue here. Rarely profitable or barely profitable colonies with high levels of autonomy.

 

Not many people would get to Mars, at least not in the first 100-200 years- they didn't in America OTL, and global population numbers will likely stagnate or decline by the 2100s due to demographic trends.

 

Quote

Mars is lucky as its still hunter gatherers perhaps with some limited farming. Had they had kingdoms you would get cold war diplomacy in full force. The US sky goods give the king weapon and ask him to start an war against the Soviet influenced kingdom. You would use the local as guides and cheap labor, an steel knife would be an legendary artifact so digging ditches for an week would be an rip of from the local point of view.
 

Not really a cold war thing, unless both superpowers were competing for a strategic land mass. 

Quote

I find it likely that the locals will out-breed the colonists once they get some sort of civilization running, humans is likely to promote this, both for their own benefit and to help the locals. 
 

They would likely out-breed the colonists at first too. The most likely thing to change is how many of them survive, not how many are born. That usually actually declines with better medical tech :P.

 

I read somewhere that birth rates usually tend to be higher in "frontier areas" where there are few people, and land for population to grow. I might be wrong, since I can't find the source for this.

 

Nomadic tribes tend not be very populous though. There might be native agricultural 'nations', closer to the equator, where there would be enough people to actually make this viable. It's definitely not Africa, where the colony is almost entirely going to be composed of natives, with the colonists essentially making up the upper class.

 

Maybe somewhere in between?

 

 

But that's assuming there's much of an economic reason to do so. It might just be "living space" for colonists wanting a job, or leaving Earth (forced or otherwise)- on land good enough to make a living, bu tnot enough to export much.

 

From a purely economical standpoint, Astroidal and Lunar colonies are always going to be the resource havens and moneymakers supplying orbital industry. Or I would think. :/

 

 

 

So I would think that the great powers settle their land claims in some UN conference, and concentrate their efforts and wars outside the gravity well of Mars. At least until we have something that really cuts launch costs. Space elevators, anyone?

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6 hours ago, fredinno said:

How are megalopolises supposed to solve the problem of automation?

They aren't, They are not a remedy, but a consequence.
I just mean that:

1. Living here

Spoiler

309-1328416430-7d625bf1e2c35d73b9fed8f8c

is cheaper than here

Spoiler

img6.jpg

So, no job → no salary → no money → cheaper apartments.

2. Logistics arm is much shorter if a million people lives inside a 100 km2 spot rather than scattered 1000 km2 around.
For everything: roads, railways, pipes, wires, etc.
Much less distances to cover, much less duration of deliverance, much less leaks in pipes and wires (so, less efforts to keep them intact).
When almost all clients have no money, economy beats comfort, companies and their clients will save every cent.

3. Every town of 400 people still needs own doctor, policeman, fireman, etc. When its citizens have enough money to keep them - no problem.
Must it's much cheaper to have a fire department, a police office and a hospital one per 10000 than per 1000.

4. It's easier to control a million unemployed people when they are living together, rather than scattered.
Especially when any job is gone forever, and you have to entertain them.

So, the less job - the more blighten areas outside, the more public housing inside.
Fifth Element, where Korben Dallas lives, is something like a limit value.

Of course, later this will become more like this,

Spoiler

1415358924452_wps_10_A_visionary_archite

but later.

5. It's just easier to find a job in a big city.

P.S.
Nice that the forum users from SE Asia usually see this without questions. :)

Edited by kerbiloid

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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

They aren't, They are not a remedy, but a consequence.
I just mean that:

1. Living here

  Hide contents

309-1328416430-7d625bf1e2c35d73b9fed8f8c

is cheaper than here

  Hide contents

img6.jpg

So, no job → no salary → no money → cheaper apartments.

2. Logistics arm is much shorter if a million people lives inside a 100 km2 spot rather than scattered 1000 km2 around.
For everything: roads, railways, pipes, wires, etc.
Much less distances to cover, much less duration of deliverance, much less leaks in pipes and wires (so, less efforts to keep them intact).
When almost all clients have no money, economy beats comfort, companies and their clients will save every cent.

3. Every town of 400 people still needs own doctor, policeman, fireman, etc. When its citizens have enough money to keep them - no problem.
Must it's much cheaper to have a fire department, a police office and a hospital one per 10000 than per 1000.

4. It's easier to control a million unemployed people when they are living together, rather than scattered.
Especially when any job is gone forever, and you have to entertain them.

So, the less job - the more blighten areas outside, the more public housing inside.
Fifth Element, where Korben Dallas lives, is something like a limit value.

Of course, later this will become more like this,

  Reveal hidden contents

1415358924452_wps_10_A_visionary_archite

but later.

5. It's just easier to find a job in a big city.

P.S.
Nice that the forum users from SE Asia usually see this without questions. :)

Those aren't so much "megalopolises". Megalopolises describe a chain of cities, or a single, huge city. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolis

 

It's also sort of a natural urban planning idea due to it allowing for increased use of cheaper public transport (ie conspiracy theorists with Agenda 21 and all :P) 

 

A future world almost entirely automated would have a bigger social problem with crime than anything.

When people have nothing to do, and no visible way they can see to improve themselves, socialist programs allowing them to live decently or not, a lot turn to crime and/or despair.

 

Same thing happens in American ghettos to an extent. Dystopian image of the future, truly.

 

Edited by fredinno

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2 hours ago, fredinno said:

The government might sponsor flights and training if the prospect of a colony is profitable enough. Which would require very cheap rockets, and would likely be mostly cash crops at first, since non biological matter is easy to get on the Moon.

But yeah, Russian Alaska is likely a good analogue here. Rarely profitable or barely profitable colonies with high levels of autonomy.

 

Not many people would get to Mars, at least not in the first 100-200 years- they didn't in America OTL, and global population numbers will likely stagnate or decline by the 2100s due to demographic trends.

 

Not really a cold war thing, unless both superpowers were competing for a strategic land mass. 

They would likely out-breed the colonists at first too. The most likely thing to change is how many of them survive, not how many are born. That usually actually declines with better medical tech :P.

 

I read somewhere that birth rates usually tend to be higher in "frontier areas" where there are few people, and land for population to grow. I might be wrong, since I can't find the source for this.

Nomadic tribes tend not be very populous though. There might be native agricultural 'nations', closer to the equator, where there would be enough people to actually make this viable. It's definitely not Africa, where the colony is almost entirely going to be composed of natives, with the colonists essentially making up the upper class.

Maybe somewhere in between?

But that's assuming there's much of an economic reason to do so. It might just be "living space" for colonists wanting a job, or leaving Earth (forced or otherwise)- on land good enough to make a living, bu tnot enough to export much.

From a purely economical standpoint, Astroidal and Lunar colonies are always going to be the resource havens and moneymakers supplying orbital industry. Or I would think. :/

So I would think that the great powers settle their land claims in some UN conference, and concentrate their efforts and wars outside the gravity well of Mars. At least until we have something that really cuts launch costs. Space elevators, anyone?

Birth rates was higher, not sure if this apply anymore, not much frontier left. Probably some self selection as you want an large house if you have many kids. 
At 2100 its likely to be an lack of kids so you would probably get plenty of benefits having them here rater than at primitive conditions on Mars 
The few places with too many people would not be able to afford to ship any. 

health care would give an native population boom together with more agriculture, they would be forced to do more farming because of larger population too. 
This will be promoted both as help and to keep natives working for the colony healthy. 

Later on Mars has an benefit in that its cheaper from launch from mars than from Earth, bulk stuff its hard to make or get in space. Food, not sure if it would be cheaper to launch oxygen and fuel from Mars than from asteroids. 

 
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

They aren't, They are not a remedy, but a consequence.
I just mean that:

1. Living here

  Reveal hidden contents

309-1328416430-7d625bf1e2c35d73b9fed8f8c

is cheaper than here

  Reveal hidden contents

img6.jpg

So, no job → no salary → no money → cheaper apartments.

2. Logistics arm is much shorter if a million people lives inside a 100 km2 spot rather than scattered 1000 km2 around.
For everything: roads, railways, pipes, wires, etc.
Much less distances to cover, much less duration of deliverance, much less leaks in pipes and wires (so, less efforts to keep them intact).
When almost all clients have no money, economy beats comfort, companies and their clients will save every cent.

3. Every town of 400 people still needs own doctor, policeman, fireman, etc. When its citizens have enough money to keep them - no problem.
Must it's much cheaper to have a fire department, a police office and a hospital one per 10000 than per 1000.

4. It's easier to control a million unemployed people when they are living together, rather than scattered.
Especially when any job is gone forever, and you have to entertain them.

So, the less job - the more blighten areas outside, the more public housing inside.
Fifth Element, where Korben Dallas lives, is something like a limit value.

Of course, later this will become more like this,

  Reveal hidden contents

1415358924452_wps_10_A_visionary_archite

but later.

5. It's just easier to find a job in a big city.

P.S.
Nice that the forum users from SE Asia usually see this without questions. :)

1) cities is more expensive, yes transport is cheaper but housing is far more expensive outside slums/ bad neighborhoods . Yes suburbs is more so as you want an large yard close to the city, longer away it becomes cheaper again as the construction cost for an house is less than an apartment especially the fancy ones like 5.  

2) is an major benefit, however with an city with poor infrastructure its less. 

3) doctors / population tend to be pretty constant demand, assume the same for police too. 

5) is the big one, perhaps just as important is that you will have all sort of services and entertainment close. 
4) this is also why unemployed stay in cities, easier to get new job and lots to do wile waiting, they are harder to control as in way higher chance of serious crime or riots.
 

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