michal.don

Shuttle Challenge v5 - The STS thread [Stock and Mod Friendly] - NEW MISSION 21.9.2018, NEW "TEST PILOT" MISSION 10.6.2018

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4 hours ago, michal.don said:

You are right, I forgot your mission - shame on me.... You did run that one in the V4 of the challenge, am I correct?

Correct!  Took me forever to do it, too--I was learning how to use gravity assists at the same time, so I ended up passing Kerbin about 5 times on my way back...

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I thought I'd share some infamous moments from ongoing shuttle tests. So far, there are 4 versions. With each, launch and orbiting are a piece of cake. Re-entry (and haven't even got to land yet) has been a real problem with this new shuttle.

Re-Entry Test #1: I don't have a screenshot because literally the explosion of the cockpit happened so fast and violently, I was surprised by the total lack of any debris. 

Re-Entry Test #2: Here I am seconds away from a serious nose-flip at 50,000 meters... which resulted in a further cockpit explosion.

R3sXS06.jpg

 

Re-Entry Test #3: This was fun... She hit the ground, cockpit & control unit blew off, so nothing to control and/or stop the engine-thrusting death-skidding that went on for literally about 4 minutes:

HUEQINN.jpg

 

Re-Entry Test #4: Here, the kerbals manage to survive, but you can hardly call this a "landing":

kGgOXfL.jpg

 

UPDATE: Holy mother of... I actually landed this thing! :confused:  

It wasn't pretty and it definitely wasn't anywhere near KSC. I was honestly just testing re-entry trajectories on an old version that was still in orbit (my Mk3-B model, like 2 generations back) .

Coming in at over 2200 m/s in a ball of fire and fury. Then dropping speed quickly. Then suddenly control, a few flips, fighting a tailspin... more control... kick in the maneuvering jets for balance...

And. It. Landed. 'Chutes deployed, brakes on... no death-skidding?! WOO-HOO!

So while this doesn't count towards my final mission, I thought I'd share a post-script to my testing process!

4E6gNzy.jpg 

Edited by scottadges
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Question on the challenge @michal.don: would you still consider it meeting the Commander specs for STS-1a (and where else applicable, I guess) if it has jet engines for post-reentry atmo flight? (Which admittedly makes a less precise entry more forgiving for as far as the shuttle can fly on jet engines)?

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13 hours ago, scottadges said:

I thought I'd share some infamous moments from ongoing shuttle tests. So far, there are 4 versions. With each, launch and orbiting are a piece of cake. Re-entry (and haven't even got to land yet) has been a real problem with this new shuttle.

Yep, looks like a standard kerbal-ish spacecraft design process :) Nevertheless, it's really amusing, thanks for sharing!

 

1 hour ago, B-STRK said:

would you still consider it meeting the Commander specs for STS-1a (and where else applicable, I guess) if it has jet engines for post-reentry atmo flight?

Welcome to the challenge! No problem with that, jet engines are fine. During many of my shuttle missions, I helped myself a bit by burning the rest of the fuel with the rocket engines, so as long as it isn't too excessive, using jets doesn't prevent you from getting the commander badges.

 

Michal.don

 

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@michal.don Hey Mike that's a very authentic looking shuttle good job! the flipping issue might be a COM/COL issue, it looks like you have some fuel tanks in the rear of your shuttle. have you checked the COM/COL when the shuttle is empty? You might be able to stabilize re-entry and avoid flipping by moving your wings back, down, and giving them a slight Dihedral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_(aeronautics)

even though your plane might pass the "well the blue dot is behind the yellow dot!" test, shuttles require a bit MORE in the way of "blue dot behind the yellow dot"
happy landing, no more flippies!

also angling your control surfaces to rest slightly 'up' will give u greater ability to lift the nose at low speeds

Edited by biomecaman

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1 hour ago, biomecaman said:

even though your plane might pass the "well the blue dot is behind the yellow dot!" test, shuttles require a bit MORE in the way of "blue dot behind the yellow dot"
happy landing, no more flippies!

That's especially true when the blue dot is above or below the yellow dot, as I found out.

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1 hour ago, zolotiyeruki said:

That's especially true when the blue dot is above or below the yellow dot, as I found out.

very true


I know we're getting a little off topic here but i think this is really the crux of shuttle design in KSP, can anyone else give their $0.02 about where the blue and yellow dots should be?

i find that the AOA you want should be represented by the blue and yellow dots, the line that the yellow dot makes to the blue is roughly where your plane "likes" to sit while re-entering

Has anyone else found this to be true?

 

ALSO, MK2 fuselages are very misleading in terms of blue dot, esp at high angles of attack, the MK3 tends to lift less and therefor the blue dot is a bit more honest

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1 hour ago, biomecaman said:

i find that the AOA you want should be represented by the blue and yellow dots, the line that the yellow dot makes to the blue is roughly where your plane "likes" to sit while re-entering

Has anyone else found this to be true?

 

ALSO, MK2 fuselages are very misleading in terms of blue dot, esp at high angles of attack, the MK3 tends to lift less and therefor the blue dot is a bit more honest

Yup, both of those are consistent with my experience.  That's why on later iterations of my shuttle, I put the canards on the bottom of the nose (the main wings were on the top of the fuselage).

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3 hours ago, biomecaman said:

can anyone else give their $0.02 about where the blue and yellow dots should be?

About right on top of each other, or with the yellow dot some what farther in front. Actually better to have it more on the nose heavy side, or able to adjust fuel load.

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2 hours ago, zolotiyeruki said:

MK2 fuselages are very misleading in terms of blue dot, esp at high angles of attack, the MK3 tends to lift less and therefor the blue dot is a bit more honest

So I was trying a design with the Mk2 fuselages and found the same thing, and remember comments from elsewhere saying that Mk2 components do indeed provide lift. 

Probably been answered here before, but any suggestions on counteracting or at least dealing with that extra lift?

Edited by scottadges

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32 minutes ago, scottadges said:

So I was trying a design with the Mk2 fuselages and found the same thing, and remember comments from elsewhere saying that Mk2 components do indeed provide lift. 

Probably been answered here before, but any suggestions on counteracting or at least dealing with that extra lift?

Depends. One is TONS of control surfaces. Another is spamming reaction wheels. The other is to go slowly through the atmosphere.

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16 hours ago, michal.don said:

- snip - so as long as it isn't too excessive, using jets doesn't prevent you from getting the commander badges.

 

Michal.don

 

Erm, would landing under power and/or being able to make it back to dry land if coming down over the ocean be considered excessive, even for Pilot STS-1a? (The jets were because I really could not successfully dead stick landings at the runway, drag and sink management post-reentry :D)

As for the craft, it's a present-version successor of this thing I did back in 1.0.2 during the Apollo 1.0 challenge, 

and the present version (slightly redesigned) has similar performance and operational specs (except for a little extra d/v to make it to Minmus), so it would give an impression of what I'm submitting. Would the 1.0.2 have qualified if flown here under the present rules? It might give me an indicator as to whether the 1.3 redesign could qualify. :)

Oh, and if a deadstick at least on final approach is absolutely required to qualify for the challenge, both the 1.0.2 and the present redesign can be deadsticked (did so doing glide tests), though they'll go down more or less where they want to go down, I'm just there to make the landing as gentle as possible. :D

Thanks for keeping the challenge going michal!

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3 hours ago, B-STRK said:

Erm, would landing under power and/or being able to make it back to dry land if coming down over the ocean be considered excessive, even for Pilot STS-1a? (The jets were because I really could not successfully dead stick landings at the runway, drag and sink management post-reentry :D)

I probably did more harm than good with my somewhat vague statement, so I'll correct it to just "jets are fine" :)

Take my statements about "not too excessive" rather as a suggestion - learn to precise-land your shuttle, it will come in handy time after time, and not having to haul jet engines and jet fuel to orbit and back will help your payload capacity.

I'll have a look at your craft thread, but it'll take a while, it seems to be quite long :wink:

Michal.don

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1 hour ago, michal.don said:

I probably did more harm than good with my somewhat vague statement, so I'll correct it to just "jets are fine" :)

Take my statements about "not too excessive" rather as a suggestion - learn to precise-land your shuttle, it will come in handy time after time, and not having to haul jet engines and jet fuel to orbit and back will help your payload capacity.

I'll have a look at your craft thread, but it'll take a while, it seems to be quite long :wink:

Michal.don

Thanks :) (And it's actually an entire challenge thread, not just one craft; the linked post is the only one dealing with craft in question. (But as that was in 1.0.2, I guess I need to do something new for 1.3 right? Working on it ATM)

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19 hours ago, scottadges said:

So I was trying a design with the Mk2 fuselages and found the same thing, and remember comments from elsewhere saying that Mk2 components do indeed provide lift. 

Probably been answered here before, but any suggestions on counteracting or at least dealing with that extra lift?

I usually treat the MK2 fues as a wing. if u have wings in the front u need MORE wings in the back.
 

19 hours ago, qzgy said:

Depends. One is TONS of control surfaces. Another is spamming reaction wheels. The other is to go slowly through the atmosphere.

 

@qzgy Not saying your way is wrong, if it works that's great, but i have built and flown MK2s without a lot of r-wheels or control surfaces. but it was not easy. u guys will see my MK2 when i upload next, sry for all the chatter

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Hi Am Gonna Do This Soon I Have (Modded But Landed and Launched the craft Unmodded Meaning Not Using mechjeb for the ascent it destroys my space shuttle if i use mechjeb for its ascent  And its relible but orbital inserion is mechjeb) I Am Using a modded shuttle from Mk 2.5 Space Plane parts And It Can Lift a limted Payload Its Gonna Soon Add The Two arms for the space station Gonna Do It soon maybe a week at longest due to school P.s I Have Ssrss And It makes Rss 10x Smaller  And The Moon  Is far away  And Its Been Used Multiple times and has built a space station most of the parts of it are from it only 2 are from the rockets And With Another Thing I Have Inclined Orbits Due to me launch from Florida Cape Canveral And Not Equatorial Like You Kerbin Users I Get a harder time  Would It count If i Land The Ksc Inclined Ker For DeltaV Readouts and Stock real Boosters for the launch clamp and the white smoke would be vapor vent mod With The smoke from the engines are from real plume And Am Using scatter with eve with trajectores(I Have stage recovery For recoverying booster It does nothing But just says i recovered this thing)

Edited by KerbalTween
Forget to put Other mods...

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On 9/20/2017 at 4:00 AM, michal.don said:

Oh my god, it seems it's monstrosity time again :D Jokes aside, despite being an enormous one, your shuttle looks really elegant, I especially like the prolonged tail structure. On the other hand, I'm not sure how drag will behave in the hand-made cargo bay - I guess only the missions will tell. Looking forward to Duna!

 

Hello, and welcome to the challenge! Good job on making a space-worthy shuttle, It's not an easy thing to do. Especially a shuttle with a 40t+ payload capacity.

However, I can not award you the commander badge - one of the requirements is landing on a runway after deorbiting, which is quite a challenge itself. But worry not - as you fly more missions with your shuttle, you'll get used to it, and precision landings will become easier - we've all been there :wink:

So, congratulations on your mission, pilot, here are your badges:

YgXYW8T.jpg?1giYU8fw.jpg?1

 

Michal.don

Your Very Right Am Getting Closer to Cape Canverl Florida The last misson land Above florida

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7 hours ago, Kerbal Tween said:

I Am Using a modded shuttle from Mk 2.5 Space Plane parts

 

7 hours ago, Kerbal Tween said:

And It makes Rss 10x Smaller  And The Moon

 

Hello, and welcome to the challenge!

The shuttle using modded parts is not a problem, there is a modded category. And regarding the modded solar system - It sure won't be any problem for the Kerbin/Earth mission, since I believe the 1/10 size Earth has the same characteristics as stock Kerbin. When the time comes, if the time comes, I'll have to check the other celestial odies though, to assess if the 1/10 Moon/Mars/Jupiter/Titan are suitable as replacements for Mun/Duna/Jool/Laythe. But for the time being, you are OK to go :)

And, as you said, you are making it a bit harder on yourself by launching from an inclined launch site, that should be a bit of extra challenge. Or, if you have "KSC switcher" installed, you could launch from Kourou or Omelek, these are pretty close to the equator.

So, good luck, and I'm looking forward to seeing your missions!

Michal.don

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UTEXrt3.jpg

Hi @michal.don! Done with my attempt at STS-1a, and please forgive me for the pic spam and exposition which is why I kept it in the Mission Reports forum, link below:

And as for the mod list:

For the Cadance orbiter:

  • Mk3 Hypersonic System
  • Mk2 Expansion
  • R&S Capsuledyne (Taurus HCV)
  • SpaceY
  • B9 Aerospace
  • Kerbal Electric (lighting)
  • RLA Stockalike
  • B9 Aerospace (docking port)

For the Shining Armor-I Flyback booster

  • SpaceY
  • Modular Rocket Systems
  • Lithobrake Exploration Technologies
  • Mk3 Hypersonic System
  • OPT Spaceplane (flight surfaces)
  • R&S Capsuledyne (Taurus HCV)
  • Kerbal Electric (lighting)

Other operational mods during the challenge flight:

  • Kerbal Joint Reinforcement
  • Mechjeb--only for informational and maneuvering guidance in atmospheric flight. Active control in vacuum orbital operations
  • KER
  • Trajectories
  • Action Group Manager
  • Vertical Velocity Autopilot--only for informational purposes, never activated
  • Kerbal Flight Indicators
  • Correct CoL
  • Gravity Turn and Throttle Controlled Avionics were present, but never activated in the flight scene

Thanks for maintaining the challenge michal! Now, just need to see if another shuttle can be designed to do STS-1 to 8... :)

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12 hours ago, michal.don said:

 

 

Hello, and welcome to the challenge!

The shuttle using modded parts is not a problem, there is a modded category. And regarding the modded solar system - It sure won't be any problem for the Kerbin/Earth mission, since I believe the 1/10 size Earth has the same characteristics as stock Kerbin. When the time comes, if the time comes, I'll have to check the other celestial odies though, to assess if the 1/10 Moon/Mars/Jupiter/Titan are suitable as replacements for Mun/Duna/Jool/Laythe. But for the time being, you are OK to go :)

And, as you said, you are making it a bit harder on yourself by launching from an inclined launch site, that should be a bit of extra challenge. Or, if you have "KSC switcher" installed, you could launch from Kourou or Omelek, these are pretty close to the equator.

So, good luck, and I'm looking forward to seeing your missions!

Michal.don

My Space Station Is In a orbt the pass florida Due to it  Being Launched from florida from a rocket Second It takes around the same DeltaV To go to the Moon as The Moon And The Moon Is smaller Then Mun But further P.s I Will Land On Somewhere near florida And I Have snacks Life support  and will lift and return My Solar Panel Holder  later gonna land on Ksc runway

Edited by KerbalTween
Reasons

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Hi Just Got My shuttle In orbit Here It is https://imgur.com/a/tcodt Am Not finshed I Just did it now Now Time for landing VERY SOON At The Ended It Died and Killed Jeb Bill Bob With it And will be rembered After 18 succsefel misson it fails And There gonna Build a Safer Space Shuttle with a higher payload capicty they say and the crew were rivied because of reasons

Edited by KerbalTween
Updating It

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On 28. 9. 2017 at 2:58 PM, B-STRK said:

Hi @michal.don! Done with my attempt at STS-1a, and please forgive me for the pic spam and exposition which is why I kept it in the Mission Reports forum, link below:

Wow, a great looking machine, and a reusable booster for the first entry - you don't see that every day! Your entry is deffinitely worthy of a commander 1-a badge, which I gladly award:

nTYtbyq.jpg?1

But, as you said, you'll have to modify or redesign the shuttle for the later missions - I'm curious what will come next!

 

20 hours ago, Kerbal Tween said:

Hi Just Got My shuttle In orbit

Looking good so far - good luck on the landing!

 

Michal.don

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