Roads to Duna: No Moar Boosters (UPDATES!)

[mk1980]

After playing for about 7 hours straight, i finally completed my journey. made about 60 screenshots of the trip.

important info first - the craft in the VAB Editor.

https://imgur.com/a/C3B0T

after some back and forth and a few ideas i scrapped, i went with only 2 parts -  a mothership with (empty) tanks, heatshield and crew cabin, and the glider (that doubles as the engine of the mothership when docked). the other 3 launches were fuel deliveries for the 3 tanks of the mothership.

mothership launch

https://imgur.com/a/b8g8P

fuel deliveries. 3 separate launches. i resisted the tempation to skip that (rather boring) part and launch the main ship with full tanks.

https://imgur.com/a/inp1A

finally launching the glider. i forgot to timewarp to the launch window before i launched the otehr 4 parts, so i figured i should at least wait before launching the crewed vehicle.

also had to redesign the damn glider last minute because i realized that the original design had only 2 seats (2 lander cans). switched one lander can for a 2 seat passenger mk1 pod. had to drop some fuel from the tank to keep the mass below the target value.

https://imgur.com/a/47d1u

after finishing the assembly, it was time to start the journey. i messed up the original aerocapture maneuver (19km above duna is TOO LOW). settled for ~25 km

https://imgur.com/a/MJERR

landing the glider and launching it back to rendezvous with the mothership

https://imgur.com/a/sOdmg

return to kerbin 

https://imgur.com/a/5QJU3

circularizing & lading the shuttle on kerbin

https://imgur.com/a/wWqEC

 

the motherships has a dry mass / mass when it first arrives in parking orbit of 4.850 tons, the Glider masses 4.810 tons. the fuel launches added 4 tons of fuel to the mothership, each.

i think the mission fulfills the criteria for the following achievements:

Wing It. Winged, rolling landings on Duna and Kerbin. 5% decrease in highest payload mass.

Old School. No nukes or ions. 3% decrease in highest payload mass.

Slow Climb. Put ladders on your vehicles so you don't have to jetpack around on the Duna surface. 4% decrease in highest payload mass.

Elon Style. Make the whole system fully reusable without using nukes, ions, or airbreathers. 25% decrease in highest payload mass.

Stayin' Alive. Bring extra living space (at least one extra seat per Kerbal) for the transfer to and from Duna. 18% decrease in highest payload mass.

Loop The Loop. Make your transfer vehicle a fully-reusable solution that can brake back into Kerbin orbit and be used again for the next trip. 15% decrease in highest payload mass.

so the total modifier should be 5+3+4+25+18+15 = 70%

heaviest payload was 4850kg

final score = 1.455 (?)

fun challenge! 

[sevenperforce]

5 minutes ago, tseitsei89 said:

Ok forgot the (1-(Blaah)) but yeah I can work with this thanks

 

edit: this will probably take a while though... So many things to consider/optimize. So a good challenge I would say...

Great!

As you can see, adding more and more bonuses really helps. In theory, you could get a negative score, but I've been careful to make enough bonuses conflict with each other that ∑(A, B, C...) cannot exceed 1.

[sevenperforce]

2 hours ago, mk1980 said:

i think the mission fulfills the criteria for the following achievements:

Wing It. Winged, rolling landings on Duna and Kerbin. 5% decrease in highest payload mass.

Old School. No nukes or ions. 3% decrease in highest payload mass.

Slow Climb. Put ladders on your vehicles so you don't have to jetpack around on the Duna surface. 4% decrease in highest payload mass.

Elon Style. Make the whole system fully reusable without using nukes, ions, or airbreathers. 25% decrease in highest payload mass.

Stayin' Alive. Bring extra living space (at least one extra seat per Kerbal) for the transfer to and from Duna. 18% decrease in highest payload mass.

Loop The Loop. Make your transfer vehicle a fully-reusable solution that can brake back into Kerbin orbit and be used again for the next trip. 15% decrease in highest payload mass.

so the total modifier should be 5+3+4+25+18+15 = 70%

heaviest payload was 4850kg

final score = 1.455 (?)

fun challenge! 

Really impressive entry! Congratulations!

I can't give you Wing It (unless you want to revert back to the landing save and refly the landing) because you didn't have a rolling landing on Kerbin, but I can give you everything else, which puts you at 1.6975! Sorry about being draconian on the rolling landing thing, but part of that bonus (which I'm particularly bad at, myself) is designing a glider which has a good enough lift-to-drag ratio for landing on Duna but enough crossrange capacity for a controlled, directed landing on Kerbin. But you're still at the top of the leaderboard!

I especially liked the efficient use of parts and mass on the mothership...and really good idea putting the large, heavy heat shield for Hohmann aerocapture on the mothership, rather than lugging it all the way down to the surface and then back up!

Edited September 9, 2017 by sevenperforce

[Nucleartaxi]

@sevenperforce I may have a look at this challenge as soon as I finish my unique (and probably insane) Jool 5 mission.

[Kergarin]

Doesn't @Laie qualify for brute force?

I see a direct ascend from Duna surface to Kerbin. Or did I get something wrong?

[mk1980]

7 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

I can't give you Wing It (unless you want to revert back to the landing save and refly the landing) because you didn't have a rolling landing on Kerbin, but I can give you everything else, which puts you at 1.6975! Sorry about being draconian on the rolling landing thing, but part of that bonus (which I'm particularly bad at, myself) is designing a glider which has a good enough lift-to-drag ratio for landing on Duna but enough crossrange capacity for a controlled, directed landing on Kerbin. But you're still at the top of the leaderboard!

don't worry - that's fair. will take a look at the named saves i made during the mission. i think i didn't make one for the landing (which was my own fault) but i think i made one shortly before the kerbin aerobrake, so i might replay that last part and redo the landing. 

[Laie]

3 hours ago, Kergarin said:

Doesn't @Laie qualify for brute force?

I see a direct ascend from Duna surface to Kerbin. Or did I get something wrong?

Sadly I don't -- brute force forbids fuel transfers in orbit. You have to unpack, assemble and use all the pieces just like they come up from the surface. I guess this is to prevent a simpleton's approach where you launch an empty vessel and follow up with nothing but refueling missions. In other words, Brute Force is not quite as easy as it seems.

10 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

[consistent launch vehicles] is already the most trivial and least time consuming way to do this... Just design a lifter capable of lifting your heaviest payload and use that for every launch. So that really isnt necessary rule...

Just look at some the already posted attempts where some parts just were too bulky and required special solutions. There's  also a role-playing element to it, I guess -- the LV should be adequate through all five launches, not grossly oversized most of the time. The host has already made it clear that you may bring up the pieces however you like, even hyperedit. I for one wouldn't award consistency if you basically opt out of the launch problem by using Mammoth boosters on 5t payloads.

@sevenperforce: if you update the rules again, don't be afraid to make it a judgement call. It's hard to define what's a good-faith attempt, but I'm sure you know it when you see it.

[Nefrums]

21 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

What a surprise!

Well, maybe the relaxed requirements of this mission will be more achievable. I'd love to see your mission architecture!

Basic architecture:

Only chemical engins, no isru. 4 kerbal mission.

Use the same launcher for everything, loosely based on a real launcher that is about to fly.  ~40t to LEO. 

First send 4-5 unnamed supply missions that put about 10t each on Mars surface.

Then construct transfer habitat in LEO with the following launches: 

1 transfer habitat. 

1 MAV with hypergolic fuel

2 return trip boosters. Also hypergolic.

7-8 methane + lox fuel for the outbound trip.

 

180 days outbound ~2 year stay and 180 days back.

[mk1980]

9 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

(unless you want to revert back to the landing save and refly the landing)

reloaded the last save and replayed the aerobrake & landing. looks ok to me. almost made it to KSC runway, but the glider flies like a cow (i think the ladder and the lander can produce a lot of drag). but this time i erred on the correct side and landed it on solid ground.

https://imgur.com/a/TJQs3

@sevenperforce let me know if that's good enough for the Winged It bonus. this time i made a proper named save before landing. could redo it once more to finally nail a KSC landing.

[Kergarin]

1 hour ago, Laie said:

Sadly I don't -- brute force forbids fuel transfers in orbit. You have to unpack, assemble and use all the pieces just like they come up from the surface. I guess this is to prevent a simpleton's approach where you launch an empty vessel and follow up with nothing but refueling missions. In other words, Brute Force is not quite as easy as it seems.

 

Hm ok... It was my understanding that you may not transfer fuel into it after the takeoff from Duna, so no refuelling in Duna orbit, but you can do what you want before leaving kerbin orbit?

[sevenperforce]

1 hour ago, Kergarin said:

2 hours ago, Laie said:

Sadly I don't -- brute force forbids fuel transfers in orbit. You have to unpack, assemble and use all the pieces just like they come up from the surface. I guess this is to prevent a simpleton's approach where you launch an empty vessel and follow up with nothing but refueling missions. In other words, Brute Force is not quite as easy as it seems.

Hm ok... It was my understanding that you may not transfer fuel into it after the takeoff from Duna, so no refuelling in Duna orbit, but you can do what you want before leaving kerbin orbit?

Brute Force requires each component to be sent up in a ready-to-fly configuration, based on many of the early Earth Orbit Rendezvous mission profiles (both for the Moon and for Mars). Real-life propellant transfer is nowhere near as simple as it is in KSP...you have to deal with differing propellant types, ullage, pressurants, and a host of other things. A brute force approach is the simplest in real-life: send up module after module until you have everything you need, and then there's no redocking in Mars orbit or anything else.

1 hour ago, mk1980 said:

reloaded the last save and replayed the aerobrake & landing. looks ok to me. almost made it to KSC runway, but the glider flies like a cow (i think the ladder and the lander can produce a lot of drag). but this time i erred on the correct side and landed it on solid ground.

https://imgur.com/a/TJQs3

@sevenperforce let me know if that's good enough for the Winged It bonus. this time i made a proper named save before landing. could redo it once more to finally nail a KSC landing.

Fantastic! Great job, I'll update the leaderboard. I'm really horrible at winged rolling landings myself.

 

2 hours ago, Nefrums said:

Basic architecture:

Only chemical engins, no isru. 4 kerbal mission.

Use the same launcher for everything, loosely based on a real launcher that is about to fly.  ~40t to LEO. 

First send 4-5 unnamed supply missions that put about 10t each on Mars surface.

Then construct transfer habitat in LEO with the following launches: 

1 transfer habitat. 

1 MAV with hypergolic fuel

2 return trip boosters. Also hypergolic.

7-8 methane + lox fuel for the outbound trip.

 

180 days outbound ~2 year stay and 180 days back.

Wow, impressive.

Currently, the rules only allow 5 launches from Kerbin, so that's something to consider. I made a penalty allowance for mission profiles requiring more than five launches.

I've toyed with rewards for a larger-Kerbal-capacity mission but it's hard to keep it balanced.

Edited September 9, 2017 by sevenperforce

[Grand Ship Builder]

A bit inspired from my own SRB challenge, how about an achievement for making your rocket using only SRBs.

[sevenperforce]

15 minutes ago, Grand Ship Builder said:

A bit inspired from my own SRB challenge, how about an achievement for making your rocket using only SRBs.

Well, last night I made an achievement for making the Duna Ascent Vehicle solid-fueled, so that adds some extra incentive to the mix. I don't think anyone would fly the whole mission using solids...that seems waaaaay too challenging. 

Not that it couldn't be done, but...aish. It would have a HUGE mass cost, which means the bonus would have to be totally unbalanced.

[Kergarin]

58 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Brute Force requires each component to be sent up in a ready-to-fly configuration, based on many of the early Earth Orbit Rendezvous mission profiles (both for the Moon and for Mars). Real-life propellant transfer is nowhere near as simple as it is in KSP...you have to deal with differing propellant types, ullage, pressurants, and a host of other things. A brute force approach is the simplest in real-life: send up module after module until you have everything you need, and then there's no redocking in Mars orbit or anything else.

 

Ok. Starting over for the third time after I just finished it 

The good thing about it: the new one without orbital fueling is even lighter 

[sevenperforce]

3 minutes ago, Kergarin said:

Ok. Starting over for the third time after I just finished it 

The good thing about it: the new one without orbital fueling is even lighter 

Oh no! I'm sorry!

Excited to see what you'll come up with, though! I'm currently cropping and organizing the photos from my (succcessful) Brute Force attempt, but it'll be nowhere near as low-mass as yours or @Laie's.

[Kergarin]

22 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

Oh no! I'm sorry!

Excited to see what you'll come up with, though! I'm currently cropping and organizing the photos from my (succcessful) Brute Force attempt, but it'll be nowhere near as low-mass as yours or @Laie's.

No problem. I was wrong.  every new attempt gave me a lighter solution, so it's a good thing 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Kergarin

[mk1980]

1 hour ago, sevenperforce said:

2 hours ago, mk1980 said:

reloaded the last save and replayed the aerobrake & landing. looks ok to me. almost made it to KSC runway, but the glider flies like a cow (i think the ladder and the lander can produce a lot of drag). but this time i erred on the correct side and landed it on solid ground.

https://imgur.com/a/TJQs3

@sevenperforce let me know if that's good enough for the Winged It bonus. this time i made a proper named save before landing. could redo it once more to finally nail a KSC landing.

Fantastic! Great job, I'll update the leaderboard. I'm really horrible at winged rolling landings myself.

the landing on kerbin wasn't really that hard. that plane doesn't fly particularly nicely due to the high drag, but it had pretty large wings, so it could still keep a more or less prograde flight at ~35 m/s shortly before touching down. the duna landing was by far the worst part of the mission. i had to reload the final seconds of the landing about a dozen times. the air on duna is very thin, especially since my landing spot was at ~4500m altitude. i don't think i'll ever do a winged duna lander again...

[sevenperforce]

57 minutes ago, mk1980 said:

the landing on kerbin wasn't really that hard. that plane doesn't fly particularly nicely due to the high drag, but it had pretty large wings, so it could still keep a more or less prograde flight at ~35 m/s shortly before touching down. the duna landing was by far the worst part of the mission. i had to reload the final seconds of the landing about a dozen times. the air on duna is very thin, especially since my landing spot was at ~4500m altitude. i don't think i'll ever do a winged duna lander again...

I was inspired to do the Wing It bonus based on the Bono Mars Glider concept from the 1960s.

[Laie]

11 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

I was inspired to do the Wing It bonus based on the Bono Mars Glider concept from the 1960s.

That, after telling us just how hard fuel transfer is IRL... back then they assumed a much thicker atmosphere, that it barely exists was the first flyby's big surprise. For all that, the pictures I find (there's lots on Wired) clearly show retrorockets in action.

 

[sevenperforce]

22 minutes ago, Laie said:

That, after telling us just how hard fuel transfer is IRL... back then they assumed a much thicker atmosphere, that it barely exists was the first flyby's big surprise. For all that, the pictures I find (there's lots on Wired) clearly show retrorockets in action.

 

Yeah, it was an ambitious plan. Asparagus-staged aerospike-nozzle boosters lofting a ginormous glider with dual-thrust-axis retrorockets, then remove and reinstall the rockets to assist with takeoff.

[Laie]

Oh boy. On my most recent vessel, there is no fuel crossfeed after docking. I suspect there is some arcane feature involved that might be of interest to other participants.

 

[Nefrums]

4 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Wow, impressive.

Currently, the rules only allow 5 launches from Kerbin, so that's something to consider. I made a penalty allowance for mission profiles requiring more than five launches.

Fortunately I will not launch any ship from Kerbin, as I use RSS. 

I started designing this mission well before this change, with the goal of making a Mars mission as realistic and as low cost as possible.

I also brake other rules of this challenge, my ksp installera take like 3-4 min to start, and it is not due to a slow computer.

I have based much of my mission on the NASA Mars plans. I use life support configs to match the mass estimate of food etc from the NASA plans.

[Kergarin]

So here it is... finally

Heaviest payload: 1.695t
5 launches:
1x 1.690t
4x 1.695t

I think i've got:
Old School 5%
Brute Force 12%
Slow Climb 4% (why did i bring this ladder? )
Elon Style 25%
Consistency 6%

= -52%

Score 0,8136
(if i didn't get another thing wrong )

 

The ship:

 

The whole tour:

https://imgur.com/a/R8sPz

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Kergarin

[ManEatingApe]

2 hours ago, Kergarin said:

Heaviest payload: 1.695t

Nicely done!

2 hours ago, Kergarin said:

Score 0,8136
(if i didn't get another thing wrong )

If I've read the thread correctly then you should be also be able to include Loop The Loop for an even lower score!

(of course @sevenperforce will have to confirm)

Edited September 9, 2017 by ManEatingApe

[mk1980]

haha, it didn't even occur to me that a mission to duna with only a handful of those tiny oscar fuel tanks and 2 sparks could be viable  that's really impressive!

also, i liked the use of those I-Beams to line up the docking ports - that's a clever idea