Simple Comm Net System Help

[Mr. Peabody]

Basically, I need to set up a large interplanetary comm system capable of reaching at least Eve and Duna with a minimal amount of launches. (I want to just get the system online fast so I can get to the fun stuff.) I'm not entirely sure how to do this, having never messed with comm systems much in the past. Should I just launch several huge comm sats into kerbin orbit with a few relays at the target planet? Or will large ground stations with antenna arrays and relays at Duna and Eve do the job? I'm not looking for a long term solution, and occasional blackouts are acceptable, though it would be great if I can build onto the system to make it more permanent in the future.

[Human Person]

4 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

Should I just launch several huge comm sats into kerbin orbit with a few relays at the target planet?

yes. that's a good Idea. The sats around the target planet can communicate with the stock ground stations anyways. the relays around Kerbin should just provide comms for things in Kerbin Orbit, they don't need to be big.

Edit: ... except you disabled extra ground stations.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Physics Student

[Mr. Peabody]

8 minutes ago, Physics Student said:

Edit: ... except you disabled extra ground stations.

 Can you clarify? I play with ground stations enabled.

Edited September 19, 2017 by The Dunatian

[Palaceviking]

Ideally for interplanetary comms,  I would put two of the largest relays into the same orbit as kerbin but spaced so that the sats and kerbin make a 'triangle' around kerbol,  use eve diving for gravity assists to help achieve this,  it will require a lot of dv but when you're only carrying a small battery, a large solar panel,  a probe core and a big dish it shouldn't be too difficult.  This will put you in good stead for the future when you're working on the opposite side of kerbol. 

[Human Person]

1 hour ago, The Dunatian said:

 Can you clarify? I play with ground stations enabled.

That means you have multiple grounstations all around Kerbin already. If disabled, you only have the Tracking station at KSC to connect to.

[Mr. Peabody]

18 minutes ago, Physics Student said:

That means you have multiple grounstations all around Kerbin already. If disabled, you only have the Tracking station at KSC to connect to.

OK.

[Spricigo]

I find that a couple of long range relays in high elliptical polar orbit and short range relay in equatorial triangular or squared formation provides pretty good coverage without being overly-complex. 

In case you need to check the range between your  satellites (/ground stations) this would be usefull.

[Superfluous J]

If you have ground stations enabled, there's no real need for any relays around Kerbin except to handle communicating with something on the far side of Mun, or on Minmus as it rotates. And those can be addressed easily with a few relay satellites around each of those moons.

Similarly, a couple satellites with large relay antennas (so long as they can communicate with Kerbin, you're good) in orbit of your target planets will do wonders. You may not have complete coverage but you'll have enough to start the fun stuff. Then anything you send to those planets should have an antenna that can reach the relay satellites with plenty of leeway.

There is a page in KSPedia (in the game, a button in the toolbar) for the commnet that shows how far one of each antenna class can hope to talk to another of another class. Sadly, the antenna descriptions don't list their classes, but you can deduce an antenna's class by how far the game tells you that you can still talk to Kerbin (which is also on that chart) with that antenna. In my experience, any antenna that can talk to Kerbin over interplanetary distances, can talk to the smallest antenna within a planet's SOI. But check the chart just in case.

Edited September 19, 2017 by 5thHorseman

[Geschosskopf]

13 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

I'm not looking for a long term solution, and occasional blackouts are acceptable, though it would be great if I can build onto the system to make it more permanent in the future.

I wrote a tutorial for making simple systems that are modular and easy to expand as needed. The link is in my sig.

The nutshell version is:

• It's always the distant ship talking to KSC.  Any intervening relays are best thought of as mere telephone poles.  The distant ship needs a direct antenna to send and receive messages.  All relay antennae do is pass the message along, but cannot initiate messages.
• Enable the extra ground stations.  If you don't, you'll have to duplicate them in orbit with a constellation of relays.  Both options make it so you're effectively able to talk to Kerbin as a whole, so don't have to worry about KSC facing the wrong way due to Kerbin's day/night cycle.
• Put 2 of the biggest relay antenna in highly eccentric polar orbits, one going up and the other down, at Kerbin and the central body of every other planet you care about.  These relays will spend the vast majority of their time high above or far below the ecliptic plane, so will be able to talk over or under all intervening celestial bodies EXCEPT the sun.  You have to talk around the sun.  So if you're going to Duna, it's a good idea to put a pair of big relays not only at Kerbin and Duna, but also at Eve, because at some point during a Duna mission, the sun will be between Duna and Kerbin for a while, so you can go around it via Eve most of the time.  And vice versa if going to Eve, put some relays at Duna.
• Put 1 or 2 short-range relay in orbit around any moon you want to visit.  These will let you talk from the far side of the moon relative to Kerbin without having to wait until you face Kerbin again (which never happens on the dark side of Mun anyway).
• Put direct antenna on your ships that are big enough to talk to the closest relay antenna.

So say you're on the far side of Ike relative to Kerbin.  Then things would work like this:

1. The direct antenna on the ship links to the short-range relay orbiting Ike.
2. The Ike relay links to one of the long-range relays in polar orbit at Duna.  If no other celestial bodies are in the way, the polar Duna relay links to Kerbin's surface and that's it.
3. If the sun is between Duna and Kerbin, the Duna polar relay links to one of the Eve polar relays, which then links to Kerbin's surface.
4. If Mun is in the way, then either the Duna or Eve (if necessary) polar relay links to one of the Kerbin polar relays, which then links to Kerbin's surface.

As you get further from home, just add the same set of 2 big polar relays and 1 or more small moon relays to each planet.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Geschosskopf

[Spricigo]

4 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

All relay antennae do is pass the message along, but cannot initiate messages

Actually relay atennas can do everything direct antennas do. It's the direct antennas that don't contribute with the relay strength. 

Direct antennas are just like your phone,  it just gives you acess to the network. The routing is handled by relays/ground stations.

[Mr. Peabody]

Thanks for your help everyone. I have already begun placing comm sats and I should be able to begin the "fun stuff" soon. 

[Geschosskopf]

7 hours ago, Spricigo said:

Actually relay atennas can do everything direct antennas do. It's the direct antennas that don't contribute with the relay strength. 

Incorrect (unless things changed between 1.2 and 1.3).  It actually works like this:

• Direct antennae:
  • Can link to relay antennae, KSC, and the extra ground stations
  • CANNOT link to each other
• Relay antennae
  • Can link to everything:  direct antennae, other relay antennae, and KSC/ground stations
  • Multiple relay antenna on same ship can combine to boost signal strength

Note that in stock, the network only serves 2 purposes, 1 of which is optional.  It allows distant ships to send science reports back to Kerbin, and (optionally) it allows you to have full control over probes.  Because both of these functions involve the distant ship talking to KSC, there is no gameplay need for 2 ships to talk to each other (IOW, have direct antennae link to each other).  And, in fact, 2 ships never do talk to each other.  Any relay ships between the distant ship and Kerbin are simply telephone poles, serving only as the conduit for the conversation but not participating in it.

So, to get back to the OP's question, networks can be very simple because  you only need them for a few widely separated moments throughout the game:  when you want to send science and (optionally) when you want to maneuver a probe.  The vast bulk of the time, you don't need the network at all.  As a result, you don't need 100% coverage 100% of the time, you only need coverage when and where you're doing these 2 things with a given ship. 

So say you're on the far side of Mun, where you always need a relays to talk back to Kerbin.  If you only have 1 short-range relay in equatorial Munar orbit (and of course the big relays in eccentric polar orbits at Kerbin), you'll be able to talk to KSC about 50% of the time.  If you don't need comms for probe control, this Munar relay can be in quite a low orbit---it only needs to be in contact with the lander for a minute or so, and the lower it is, the shorter the blackouts.  OTOH, if you need the relay for control, it has to be high enough that you can land or get back to orbit while you've got a link.  It only takes a few minutes to do either, so really any reasonably high orbit (a few 100km) suffices for that.  But if you land towards the end of the link's duration, then you might have to warp forward an hour or so before you can transmit science.  Which is no big deal.  This is why you really don't need 100% coverage 100% of the time.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Geschosskopf

[Spricigo]

5 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Incorrect (unless things changed between 1.2 and 1.3).  It actually works like this:

Nothing changed. And relay antennas can, indeed, do everything direct antennas do:

-connect to ground stations and relays

- contribute with Vessel Antenna Power.

Relay antennnas can also (and direct antennas can't) contribute with Relay Antenna Power.

VAP is used for the vessel you are in control of, everything else usea RAP. 

Just check in game how different combinations of antennas will provide or not a link between your active vessel and a relay.

 

5 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

•  

Note that in stock, the network only serves 2 purposes, 1 of which is optional

Also incorrect. If commnet is enabled, a connection to KSC is required to:

-transmit science 

-full control of unkerbaled vessel.

-setup maneuver  nodes without a pilot on board. 

Another option [requires connection to control] will determine what happens with a unkerbaled vessel out of contact.

Enabled: no control whatsoever

Disabled: only able to control the craft with [Z], [X] and SAS.

 

5 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

As a result, you don't need 100% coverage 100% of the time, you only need coverage when and where you're doing these 2 things with a given ship. 

Agreed.

That said,  higher coverage is convenient because it gives  more opportunities for those 3 things. 

 

[Geschosskopf]

52 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

Also incorrect. If commnet is enabled, a connection to KSC is required to:

-transmit science 

-full control of unkerbaled vessel.

-setup maneuver  nodes without a pilot on board. 

Nope, nope, nope, totally wrong.

There is no escaping requiring a connection to transmit science since 1.2.  However,, the requirement of a connection to allow full control of probes is totally optional.  It defaults to "off" and can only be enabled through the Settings/Advanced Settings menu.

The issue of full control of a crewed ship without a pilot aboard is a totally separate thing, which is part of the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned union craft line Kerbal class system.  That, unfortunately, become a thing way before comms.  But it's easy enough to get around.  Just put a probe core on every ship (or use MM to add ModuleCommand to all pods) and then do NOT check the option to require comm connections for control.  Problem solved.

[Spricigo]

3 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Nope, nope, nope, totally wrong.

You are. Just check it in-game. 

 

3 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

However,, the requirement of a connection to allow full control of probes is totally optional

What is optional is the limited control without signal.  

3 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

The issue of full control of a crewed ship without a pilot aboard is a totally separate thing, which is part of the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned union craft line Kerbal class system

Yes SAS is a different issue. Nothing to do with the ability to steer the craft and gradual throttle a.k.a. full control. Both are completely different from maneuver planing. 

[Geschosskopf]

39 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

You are. Just check it in-game. 

I'll take a double of whatever you're drinking.  Out.

[Spricigo]

7 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

I'll take a double of whatever you're drinking.  Out.

Ad hominem?  Seriously?! Just check in-game,  it wouldn't take like 5min tops and if I'm wrong you will find irrefutable evidence. In the 'worse case scenario' that you're wrong the result is learning how the game works.  Whatever you find out is good for you.

 

 

[Palaceviking]

Lest we forget the weird two pilots in a lander can thing for controlling probes....

[Spricigo]

50 minutes ago, Palaceviking said:

Lest we forget the weird two pilots in a lander can thing for controlling probes....

And can get weirder, two pilots in a crew cabin...can remote control probes but can't control their own craft (without a probecore/command pod).

 

[Palaceviking]

Just now, Spricigo said:

And can get weirder, two pilots in a crew cabin...can remote control probes but can't control their own craft (without a probecore/command pod).

 

Really!?!?  Trying that after work

[Spricigo]

Just now, Palaceviking said:

Really!?!?  Trying that after work

I see this in version 1.2 but AFAIK didn't changed.