SuicidalInsanity

WW2 BAD-T III - BDAc AI Dogfight Tournament

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19 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Hi all

just a PSA regarding Take Command .......

If you are using an external command seat be sure to leave enough room for your Kerbal to spawn ... If there are parts of your plane that are overlapping where your Kerbal spawns in the chair, you run a significant risk of your Kerbal being tossed out of the seat which would force @SuicidalInsanity to manually seat each Kerbal into the seat while setting up the competition 

The very reason I'm not sure yet which option to choose for the stock turboprop WW2 BAD-T.

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3 hours ago, Azimech said:

The very reason I'm not sure yet which option to choose for the stock turboprop WW2 BAD-T.

Make it a requirement that a person using the command chair must be sure to place it so that their Kerbal don't get tossed  ... Reminds me of a challenge I posted a while back :cool:

Spoiler

 

 

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Unless the BT suckers the Tytonid into a turn fight I think the TWR of the twin might carry this, it can just extend too easily. I really wish BDA would ditch that straight-line suicide pass at the start though, I used to set guns to fire at long range to break it apart but even that doesn't seem to work atm.

Is there some way of setting maximum climb angle? I'm watching a craft continually spin out as it tries to climb up to it's wingman, it's hitting min alt & then pulling for all it's worth until it's at 80 degrees or so, briefly. The AoA limiter won't work because it's not really pulling much AoA until it runs out of energy.

@dundun93 your craft has a fuel tank clipped into a fuel tank, which will get it rejected:

-Part clipping is allowed, within reason. No clipping resource containing parts into other resource containing parts please. Clipping ballast parts into ballast parts is permitted.

Edited by Van Disaster

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if BDA debug labels are turned on, there's an internal Max Climb Angle value the AI is calculating somehow, but that seems to shift between 'Unlimited' and a more appropriate value that looks like it's being calculated from vessel TWR - so there may be a way to expose that to an external override, something to ask the BDA dev team. For immediate workarounds you could try decreasing default altitude, or increasing wingman lead distance.

Of the BAD-T 2 Final, I will say only this: There are no kills during the initial jousts.

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9 minutes ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

if BDA debug labels are turned on, there's an internal Max Climb Angle value the AI is calculating somehow, but that seems to shift between 'Unlimited' and a more appropriate value that looks like it's being calculated from vessel TWR - so there may be a way to expose that to an external override, something to ask the BDA dev team. For immediate workarounds you could try decreasing default altitude, or increasing wingman lead distance.

Of the BAD-T 2 Final, I will say only this: There are no kills during the initial jousts.

Yeah, I've watched the debug labels a lot ( patched some in myself occasionally ) - something a bit amiss when the stay-in-formation imperative is overriding the can't-climb-any-quicker code though.

Current BDA seems worse than previous for initial joust issues :S seems a bit slower than before about recognising an incoming attack in general, that might have something to do with it.

Edited by Van Disaster

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41 minutes ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Of the BAD-T 2 Final, I will say only this: There are no kills during the initial jousts.

Yusss.

BT rocked it I am sure.

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19 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

if BDA debug labels are turned on, there's an internal Max Climb Angle value the AI is calculating somehow, but that seems to shift between 'Unlimited' and a more appropriate value that looks like it's being calculated from vessel TWR - so there may be a way to expose that to an external override, something to ask the BDA dev team. For immediate workarounds you could try decreasing default altitude, or increasing wingman lead distance.

The max climb angle function ( actually GetLimitedClimbDirectionForSpeed() I think ) isn't implemented into all pilot behaviours & you probably wouldn't want it to be either, at least in it's current state - flying to formation position seems a suitable place though. If there was an extra offset parameter so you could tune it a bit for "urgency" per pilot behaviour then it might be useful everywhere so craft don't get stuck in low energy states, but that's not a trivial thing given how far it'd change behaviour. It'd be better based on available thrust & acceleration than just speed like it is now, but that'd require some surgery.

After some fiddling & actually examining what's happening I think my zoom climb quick fix from last year was probably a good one in the end, so I filled in my issue more & hopefully that'll make it live. Next up would be a slider to bias the extend vs turn threshold ( or more likely make a snap decision based on heading difference & total velocity )... my B&Z attempts extend less than my turnfighters.

Edit: also seems to be a bug in the evasion routine somewhere, or at least the labels - several times seen it showing evasion patters now with the craft flying straght.

Edited by Van Disaster

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The BD AI Dogfight Tournament II Final is finally here, between the BT-211 SkyRebel, by @OmegaForce and the FAR Tytonid Mk XVI, by @ferram4. Both of these craft have proven their worth, and now they come head-to-head in an extended 2v2 , 5-round match to decide the ultimate winner of the BAD-T2 first-tier tournament bracket.

 

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Wow, that was a really good battle.

Very different from most of the others, both crafts are really fast.

Spoiler (read after watching)

Spoiler

Both crafts are very fast, but at that altitude the Tytonid was surely faster.

If it played on a lower altitude it would certainly lose.

It's interesting that since it was so fast, most of the kills were while the DTs were chasing the other airplane.

This outcome will drastically change the way i design my prototype for this next tournament.

Will update the tournament tree and the thread as soon as I can.

Btw, when I meant score I had rounds won in my mind, not sure which method is better.

Edited by tetryds

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Relative starting altitude played a big part there too, not just absolute ( and the usual appalling piloting :P ) - I've not seen a test fight start at that sort of altitude. Congrats, winner! I'd love to see that craft ( or at minimum, the AI settings. ). That was an inspired choice of music, too.

The current engines make things rather different for this contest, I think.

@SuicidalInsanityare there no suitable wheel mods atm? the small stock wheels are a bit ludicrous  & the med ones way too heavy ( and large ) for single engine entrants. I've no idea what's around now though.

Edited by Van Disaster

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22 hours ago, Van Disaster said:

Relative starting altitude played a big part there too, not just absolute ( and the usual appalling piloting :P ) - I've not seen a test fight start at that sort of altitude. Congrats, winner! I'd love to see that craft ( or at minimum, the AI settings. ). That was an inspired choice of music, too.

The current engines make things rather different for this contest, I think.

@SuicidalInsanityare there no suitable wheel mods atm? the small stock wheels are a bit ludicrous  & the med ones way too heavy ( and large ) for single engine entrants. I've no idea what's around now though.

KerbalFoundries2 has ALG intergrated now.

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ALG is back? In that case, I see no reason not to allow it. I'll add it to the OP.

Altitude settings for the winning craft were 300m/3000m as its minimum altitude/default altitude respectively. Idle speed was set to 200, and max G was set to 25. The other settings were more or less their default values.

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ALG? hurray, I can go back to being annoyed by the giant enclosures rather than comically short struts.

No secrets in the AI then. I still can't find the B&Z formula.

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Lol yes, that was a bit of a tell.

Well, "prefers to extend" should not also mean "can't turn" - unfortunately whatever I do the pilot wants to get into a turn fight at *some* point & that is the end of it. I can build turn fighters ok, I'd just like to make something else work too sometime.

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10 minutes ago, tetryds said:

@Van Disaster I hate giving tips because I am also going to compete but...

Go faster.

Yeah, not asking anyone to give up secrets - was just wondering if I'd missed something blatantly obvious, which I don't really think I have.

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On 9/24/2017 at 12:28 PM, Van Disaster said:

Unless the BT suckers the Tytonid into a turn fight I think the TWR of the twin might carry this, it can just extend too easily. I really wish BDA would ditch that straight-line suicide pass at the start though, I used to set guns to fire at long range to break it apart but even that doesn't seem to work atm.

Is there some way of setting maximum climb angle? I'm watching a craft continually spin out as it tries to climb up to it's wingman, it's hitting min alt & then pulling for all it's worth until it's at 80 degrees or so, briefly. The AoA limiter won't work because it's not really pulling much AoA until it runs out of energy.

@dundun93 your craft has a fuel tank clipped into a fuel tank, which will get it rejected:

-Part clipping is allowed, within reason. No clipping resource containing parts into other resource containing parts please. Clipping ballast parts into ballast parts is permitted.

 

not true. I put fuel in the tail which has no resources.

 

Edited by dundun93

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On 9/20/2017 at 5:27 PM, 53miner53 said:

I'm entering WWII Fighter 1: https://kerbalx.com/53miner53/WWII-Fighter-1

Edit: forgot pics: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0eMT8zRijNmNzZIa2ZiSHQ5alk

I forgot to grab pics of the dogfight itself, but it ended up being mostly WWII Fighter 1 being chased unsuccessfully by the Dummy fighter until my fighter turned around and fought again, finally destroying the Dummy plane

why is the mod list have SpaceY Heavy Lifters?

Mods

  • AviatorArsenal
  • B9 Procedural Wings Modified
  • BADTProps
  • Ferram Aerospace Research
  • SpaceY Heavy Lifters
  • Squad (stock)

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2 hours ago, dundun93 said:

why is the mod list have SpaceY Heavy Lifters?

Mods

  • AviatorArsenal
  • B9 Procedural Wings Modified
  • BADTProps
  • Ferram Aerospace Research
  • SpaceY Heavy Lifters
  • Squad (stock)

I was playing around with SRBs to get around the long takeoff time on the dummy craft and decided to add SRBs to my craft temporarily. I accidentally uploaded it with SRBs, and thought I removed the SRBs and reuploaded. Either the mod list didn’t update or I just failed in reuploading. I’ll try to fix it.

edit: fixed it! Reuploading failed. :P

Edited by 53miner53

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8 hours ago, 53miner53 said:

I was playing around with SRBs to get around the long takeoff time on the dummy craft and decided to add SRBs to my craft temporarily. I accidentally uploaded it with SRBs, and thought I removed the SRBs and reuploaded. Either the mod list didn’t update or I just failed in reuploading. I’ll try to fix it.

edit: fixed it! Reuploading failed. :P

Change in balance, less weight, more wing, more engine would be the initial answer before strapping rockets on - moar boosters isn't *always* the answer :D

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7 hours ago, Van Disaster said:

Change in balance, less weight, more wing, more engine would be the initial answer before strapping rockets on - moar boosters isn't *always* the answer :D

They were on decouplers, and the plane flew fine anyway. The rockets were fun though.

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So, I have two designs lined up for this. 
 

Spoiler

 

Screenshot7 by LythroA

screenshot3_by_lythroa-dbp2na8.png

Remake of my Warspite from BAD-T 2

 

and,

Spoiler

 

Screenshot0 by LythroA

Screenshot9 by LythroA

 A new heavy fighter design (note to @SuicidalInsanity it uses a mod Procedural Parts texture - https://spacedock.info/mod/1301/W3 Fuselage Texture, is this allowed?)

 

 

Edited by MightyDarkStar

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i haven't decided in regards to allowing custom procedural textures or not, but even if I don't, craft with them will still load even without the texture installed, so those designs would be legal either way.

Edited by SuicidalInsanity

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On 01/10/2017 at 1:43 AM, MightyDarkStar said:

 

  Hide contents

Screenshot9 by LythroA

 A new heavy fighter design (note to @SuicidalInsanity it uses a mod Procedural Parts texture - https://spacedock.info/mod/1301/W3 Fuselage Texture, is this allowed?)

 

 

Kinda looks like a DH Hornet with the tail bolted on upsideown :P mind you all merlin twins with that cockpit end up looking like a Hornet...

I think I may end up entering the one I like watching fight best, nothing I've built seems a real winner.

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