Mars Colonization Discussion Thread

[Green Baron]

2 hours ago, PB666 said:

 it is possible to create a magnetic field or around Mars using 1000s of satellites that convert solar power and also ground stations that reinforce the feild,

Aww, man, ihate to be so realistic, but here it comes:

 

We cannot send 1000s of satellites to Mars.

And if, these then convert solar radiation into ... what exactly ? And how ? And ground stations do emit .. what exactly :-) Sounds like Startrek, Mr. Spock :-)

You know how earths planet wide field forms ? Somewhat viscous iron core, planetary rotation, convection ? What energy magnitude is that ?

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So the problem with water on mars is getting power from the places that have power to the places that have water so that water can be accessed.

The problem with water on Mars is that first and foremost it has to be found and verified in quantities and useful combinations. Then, if somebody feels the urge to bring it to some use, they can think of how to do it.

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Already discussed in other threads is the problem with fusion reactor weight  and heat dissipation, both problems for getting a fusion reactor onto mars (although it could be delivered in pieces and assembled on mars)

Problem is first to invent a fusion reactor. Physicists of Greifswald, Germany, where they build the Stellarator Wendelsten X, say that whatever technology comes to being, it will be the second half the century (Interview a few weeks ago in an German news magazine, no official statement).

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A second way to do this is to actually heat the poles using radiative heating, either from space (polar climate forcing) or by transferring power from the equator to the poles.

Yeah, do the same thing as on earth :-) Seriously, there is no technology to do such a thing in the scale needed. Mars is a real life planet, no KSP spaceball.

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Thus forcing the water and carbon dioxide off the poles and back into that atmosphere. This has the added benefit of warming the climate at both the poles and the equatorial regions.

There is nothing to support that. The heated gases can well just go off into space.

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ONe still has to deal with solar winds. One could dig a tunnel from the poles to the equitorial regions

You musk errr must be joking, right ? We can't dig such a tunnel on earth.

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that permit the flow of water back to the equator.

Need a strong pump because of coriolis ...

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In the process you might also stir up dormant life forms on Mars,

Ok, now it's clear, haha ! You fooled me all the way until here ;-) Well done, sir !

:-)

 

Edit: to add to the funny proposals: paint the icecaps black ;-) That'll trap more energy than any reactor can produce ! Somebody got a brush ?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Green Baron

[DAL59]

 

55 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Yeah, do the same thing as on earth :-) Seriously, there is no technology to do such a thing in the scale needed.

What about Musk's plan to take a thousand nukes and drop them on the poles?  Remember, the surface of Mars is just below the pressure and temperature needed for liquid water, so a tiny change could cause runaway warming.  

55 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

We can't dig such a tunnel on earth.

Because we have oceans.  

5 hours ago, Green Baron said:

If you have anything to back that up then bring it on ! I am more than interested, but please no magazines, blogs or wikipedia articles if they are not supported by citable sources.

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/reports/CB-955/washington.pdf

This is WAVAR.  

Edited November 27, 2017 by DAL59

[tater]

17 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

 

What about Musk's plan to take a thousand nukes and drop them on the poles?  Remember, the surface of Mars is just below the pressure and temperature needed for liquid water, so a tiny change could cause runaway warming.  

Sigh.

Really? First he needs to build a nuclear bomb program that rivals the US military without the Feds losing their minds. This is about as realistic as funding BFS via collecting underpants.

17 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

Because we have oceans.  

Because power. Because logistics. Etc, ad nauseum.

17 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/reports/CB-955/washington.pdf

This is WAVAR.  

That's a legitimate proposal. Note the amounts generated over the course of long timescales, though. It's still pretty slow, a few kg a day.

[Green Baron]

30 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

 

What about Musk's plan to take a thousand nukes and drop them on the poles?  Remember, the surface of Mars is just below the pressure and temperature needed for liquid water, so a tiny change could cause runaway warming.  

Childish and ridiculous. And, no, simply not true.

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Because we have oceans.  

Seriously, do you have an idea what it means to dig a tunnel thousands of kilometers and in a size that fits a noticeable amount of water ? The whole idea is .... (half-)un-baked.

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https://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/reports/CB-955/washington.pdf

This is WAVAR.  

Pseudo science ?

Edit: If you want to convince me than give me more than a bad photocopy of a paper ...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Green Baron

[tater]

@Green Baron

WAVAR is a legitimate concept. It's a white paper for a proposed ISRU that seems reasonable after skimming it. A substantial mass and power requirement results in as much as a few liters of water a day. It's not mature, but it's worth looking into, the quality of the reproduction doesn't matter much. I have proceedings from old meetings like the Space conferences and ISNPS (Institute for Space Nuclear Power Studies) from the 1990s that are far worse (bound proceedings were just copies of the physical papers submitted), that doesn't make the content of the papers nonsense.

 

[PB666]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

We cannot send 1000s of satellites to Mars.

We can, but to have enough they would have to be big and be capable of creating large magnetic field, that is particularly difficult. Just to make a point, Any decent sized laucnh system is now capable of getting a few hundred  satellites into orbit, and all you need is 5700 dv to get them to mars. So basically you get to LEO, refuel then go to Mars. That has nothing to do with the problem at hand, because you would need 1000s of satellites capable of creating a magnetic field around mars, which means the power supply and some sort of very long booms for creating a dipole that can link to other dipoles. Again this is future space not a lets do this tomorrow.

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

And if, these then convert solar radiation into ... what exactly ? And how ? And ground stations do emit .. what exactly :-) Sounds like Startrek, Mr. Spock :-)

You know how earths planet wide field forms ? Somewhat viscous iron core, planetary rotation, convection ? What energy magnitude is that ?

Ok for example if you had polar satellites you could have a series in orbit at one altitude, then another series at another altitude, even connected by a long thin wire that float magnetic dipole as they move creating a facsimile of a N and south Pole. There is new technology for creating surface dipole at great distance, so this could be at north and south polar regions. Again each series would need 100s of satellites to keep the wire from crossing into the atmosphere. It could theoretically be done, not saying it should be done, just saying that adding water to mar's surface is rather futile until it has a magnetic field.

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

The problem with water on Mars is that first and foremost it has to be found and verified in quantities and useful combinations. Then, if somebody feels the urge to bring it to some use, they can think of how to do it.

I believe that there is frozen carbonic Acid underlying the permanent Ice at the poles and lots of it. Carbonic acid is not particularly hard to deal with, heat to about 50' at STP and bubble with N2 and CO2 will come out as long as there is not to much base in the water. The problem is that in areas most likely to accumulate water, also are the places most likely to deposit clathrates and then CO2. So accessing these you have layers.

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

Problem is first to invent a fusion reactor. Physicists of Greifswald, Germany, where they build the Stellarator Wendelsten X, say that whatever technology comes to being, it will be the second half the century (Interview a few weeks ago in an German news magazine, no official statement).

Thats credible if only if you have not been fooled by the fusion reactor in 20 years. Lets say at the end of this century. Not to worry, it will be long before we have the capability to do the other stuff. (like generate a facsimile of a magnetic field).

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

You musk errr must be joking, right ? We can't dig such a tunnel on earth.

The swiss have dug a 80 something km tunnel. Yes but point taken, its another energetic proposal. OK so lets be frank, if we want to argue that we are going to have cloud colonies on Venus, we do not even have cloud colonies on Earth, and the technology to have a venusian cloud colony ranks up with the abrewhatshisface warp drive. So getting more down to earth we have Mars and mercury. The mercury issue is simply a brute force issue (cranking out those dV), if you can create technology for the moon, you can do so for Mercury (just much more expensive but cheaper to operate when you finally get there). Handled these two then there is Mars. Mars is freaking dry. Do we have the technology to make it wetter, the answer is yes but its tremendously expensive and requires things we are trying to invent but are not yet invented. So yeah, 21st century. Mars has enough problems as it is without Nuking the poles. Dry Ice makes an excellent insulator, this is because is primarily flake, by getting under the ice you can use the latent heat of mars on one side and insulating capacity on the other to grab at the water you need, at first. Of course the problem is how to get that back to the colony. Its all expensive. So getting that going may 23rd century.

Finally, life on the surface of Mars probably does not exist, but if you go digging 1000s of miles underground with trapped water from the early history of mars, you might be in for a surprise, like archea level bugs in the mileau.

[DAL59]

6 minutes ago, PB666 said:

and the technology to have a venusian cloud colony ranks up with the abrewhatshisface warp drive.

Like what?  Also, higher density on Venus means it is easier to float.  Normal air will provide 1.5 buoyancy at the Venusian habitable layer.  

6 minutes ago, PB666 said:

1000s of miles

Not 1000s.  You probably meant feet.  

22 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Pseudo science ?

It is a NASA thing... its also part of Mars 2020, but I think they canceled its inclusion.  

22 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Seriously, do you have an idea what it means to dig a tunnel thousands of kilometers and in a size that fits a noticeable amount of water ? The whole idea is .... (half-)un-baked.

I agree, it would not be useful for terraforming, but it would  be possible(albiet useless.)

Plus, Musk has a Boring Company. 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by DAL59

[Green Baron]

Ok, so these are fantastic concepts for a far future, nothing to do right away. You should have said that because "we can" means for me "we can now". We can't now, no state pays 1000s of launches and no firm builds thousands of rockets for stuff that is more than doubtful to work. Btw. satellites tied together will fall down ;-)

As to the life, i go with science. Archaea underground on Mars is beyond science. Sorry, guys ...

3 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

It is a NASA thing...

That's why ...

If its not a published peer reviewed paper and its from Nasa it is sure to have a half life of lets say weeks to years. Somebody had an idea and could not hold back but write it down. Happens often in these huge official aparatusses.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Green Baron

[DAL59]

2 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

satellites tied together will fall down

Although I can't see how this is related to Mars colonization, tethered satellites do not necessarily fall down.  Its called a orbital or momentum exchange tether and it would be quite useful to have one on Phobos.  

[Green Baron]

19 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

Plus, Musk has a Boring Company. 

 

[irony] Really ? Tell me more ![/irony] :-)

@PB666: one of the tunnel boring machines weighs 2700t (German brand Herrenknecht, machine type S 210) and needs a train network connected for supply and disposal of waste. And the industry for Steel, concrete, spare parts ...

.... and a replacement if it breaks down or gets stuck. As happened. They "drove" it to the side and ordered a new one.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Green Baron

[PB666]

4 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

[irony] Really ? Tell me more ![/irony] :-)

@PB666: one of the tunnel boring machines weighs 2700t (German brand Herrenknecht, machine type S 210) and needs a train network connected for supply and disposal of waste. And the industry for Steel, concrete, spare parts ...

.... and a replacement if it breaks down or gets stuck. As happened. They "drove" it to the side and ordered a new one.

That tunnel was designed for two trains and a highway so  . . . . . . .But yeah, if you cant get a 200t Wendelstein X onto mars you don't have to worry about tunneling anyway.

I'm ordering my S210 today, watch your feet, . . . . . .

[PB666]

25 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Btw. satellites tied together will fall down ;-)

You have to have an awful lot in a loop to remain stable.  The satellite tethers need to respond to fluxes in the gravitational field, the tether is releases and pulled back. Again lets go backwards.

1. Get a fusion reactor onto the surface of mars.
2. Find a reliable way to reach thick icey polar region of mars
3. Find a way to transfer power from the equitorial regions to the polar regions
4. get the water reliably back to the equitorial regions
(I would think that by now everyone should realize this is 100s of years in the future . . .fusion maybe 75 years; getting mechanized engineers to mars poles; prospecting the energetics of extracting water from the poles, 20 or 30 years, finding a way to transfer power to the poles (requires ISRU, aluminum wire processing, building of towers, etc) at least 100 years after fusion power arrives. Then you need that  +100t drilling equipment (something smaller will do). If you make it through all these steps then maybe 400 to 500 years from now you can pretend to make air on Mars.) by this time the drilling equipment should have improved markedly over current varieties. However I do expect these new varieties will use more hv and other wave form generators and much more energy and put a lower burden on the mechanical part of drilling cause the energy needs to be much higher.
5. Comet redirect is also an option.
6. get atmosphere stabilizing electromagnetic arrays in place.

This is to say the technology is known, just not really doable at present or near-future. We could also say fusion technology is known, and fusion has been done for so briefly and inefficiently as to not call it fusion power. But they are progressing. There is no progression here on earth building cloud cities.

 

[DAL59]

Fusion is more far off than blimps.  

[PB666]

Fusion is less far off the Venusian city blimps.

[kerbiloid]

7 hours ago, PB666 said:

3. Find a way to transfer power from the equitorial regions to the polar regions

Solved:

7 hours ago, PB666 said:

1. Get a fusion reactor onto the surface of mars.

in a polar region.

[cfds]

Just out of interest, PB666: How are you planning to prevent your magic "magnetic field generating satellites" from aligning perfectly with the solar magnetic field? If the satellites generate a field strong enough to have any impact on protecting the atmosphere from the solar wind no form of RCS will keep the satellites aligned....

[PB666]

8 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Solved:

in a polar region.

If you landed a fusion reactor on the CO2 poles it would sink like hot lead in an ice-cream sundae.

2 hours ago, cfds said:

Just out of interest, PB666: How are you planning to prevent your magic "magnetic field generating satellites" from aligning perfectly with the solar magnetic field? If the satellites generate a field strong enough to have any impact on protecting the atmosphere from the solar wind no form of RCS will keep the satellites aligned....

The magnetic fields will only be applied when solar storms are a danger, and their field strength can be pulsed or even inverted. There is an alternative which is to place Coils on a set of tracks on the surface and have the simulate a solid core moving under the outer layers of the planet. You could have a orbiting wire array at L1 that creates a repulsive magnetic field that forces the plasma stream around the planet. Since that must orbit anyway the core could move closer to the sun when more force was needed and farther from the sun when less force was need. We could just dig way down into the planet from both poles and then create two large interconnected dipoles.

Anyway I don't need to figure it out, there lots of times (100s of years) for it to be figured out or forgotten. Its kind of like fusion power.

[Green Baron]

Ahah. And then you can force a magnetic storm into a torch and shoot down all the aliens that attack Mars. Pyu pyu pyu ...

Can we ... please, please, please ... stay on the carpet ? I mean, this is a game forum, but also a subforum named science & spaceflight that somehow should not loose all the contact to reality. At least i feel so. Or not ?

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

If you landed a fusion reactor on the CO2 poles it would sink like hot lead in an ice-cream sundae.

If you land it in 20 km from the glacier, it wouldn't.

[PakledHostage]

I haven't read all the way back in this thread but I suspect that the point of bringing up Venutian cloud cities is to highlight the fact that Venus isn't the horrific hell hole that everyone first imagines when they read the name. 

But none of this "colonization" discussion, whether it be Mars or wherever, makes any sense to me. There has to be a reason to go and I don't see what that might be. Sure there'd be some novelty to living on Mars - for about a week - but there has to be more than that.

It is clear from the discussion in this thread that colonizing any planet is impractical for the foreseeable future. We might send scientific outposts to these places at some point in the next century, but nobody is going to be raising families while running moisture farms on Tatooine Mars or mining gas on Bespin Venus any time soon.

[Nibb31]

39 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

If you land it in 20 km from the glacier, it wouldn't.

The edge of the glacier moves hundreds of km depending on the season.

[kerbiloid]

14 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

The edge of the glacier moves hundreds of km depending on the season.

How thick is the ice on top of hills/crater ridges?

[DAL59]

9 hours ago, PakledHostage said:

I haven't read all the way back in this thread but I suspect that the point of bringing up Venutian cloud cities is to highlight the fact that Venus isn't the horrific hell hole that everyone first imagines when they read the name. 

Correct.  Venus's upper atmosphere doesn't have any problems with temperature regulation, nitrogen availability, gravity, or radiation.  

The disadvantage is, unlike Mars, it is very hard to have a reusable SSTO.  

10 hours ago, PakledHostage said:

It is clear from the discussion in this thread that colonizing any planet is impractical for the foreseeable future. We might send scientific outposts to these places at some point in the next century, but nobody is going to be raising families while running moisture farms on Tatooine Mars or mining gas on Bespin Venus any time soon.

I can see your point, however, orbital colonies might be more practical. You can make controlled environments with huge surface areas.  Tiny phobos, if mined and converted into cylinder habitats, could have a far greater surface area than Mars.  

[kerbiloid]

On 27.11.2017 at 10:06 PM, Green Baron said:

paint the icecaps black ;-) That'll trap more energy than any reactor can produce ! Somebody got a brush ?

An atmospheric CO₂ splitter. Splits CO₂ into oxygen and carbon, spreads the latter over the polar caps.

On 27.11.2017 at 10:06 PM, Green Baron said:

You know how earths planet wide field forms ? Somewhat viscous iron core, planetary rotation, convection ?

Then, underground satellites.

On 27.11.2017 at 10:58 PM, DAL59 said:

What about Musk's plan to take a thousand nukes and drop them on the poles?

Before or after the colonists' arrival?

On 27.11.2017 at 10:58 PM, DAL59 said:

Because we have oceans.  

They are just wet spots somewhere on the Earth.
The North and South oceans could be connected both in Eurasia and Americas by tunnels crossing the equator.

P.S.
Mars is an ideal place for hermits.
So, the Martian colony would be named Hermitage.

Asteroid belt, too.
This one would be named MonAsterium.

[Diche Bach]

Has this video been linked up in heayah already?