Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[steve9728]

1 hour ago, Codraroll said:

I guess they don't need to. The right people can just send a press release that says "the people loves CNSA now", and suddenly its official approval rating is one hundred percent.  No need to buy as much as a poster. It must be very economical.

Well actually they really don't need to because thanks of the space station, moon and mars project, and the most important things: the hype from Western - China Threat Theory.  People probably more than 98% support whatever CNSA do if all my friends and family is not actor hire by CPC

The only complaint is that people want the researchers to be paid more.

Edited November 27, 2021 by steve9728

[steve9728]

News: at 00:40 (UTC/GMT+08:00), the CZ-3B rocket successfully placed the "Zhongxing (China Sat)1D" into orbit. This mission was the 399th flight of the Long March series of launch vehicles.

4 launches a week, think someone is really getting serious. And, I'm looking forward to what will CNSA sending into space for the 400th flight of Long March series of luanch vehicles. Send something hypersonic

Edited November 27, 2021 by steve9728

[SunlitZelkova]

11 hours ago, steve9728 said:

Yep. But sadly I still not back home and don’t have opportunity to visit the Juhai Airshow. Frankly speaking we don’t know more than the other people outside of China but in Chinese, Tengyun means tumbling cloud. And the “cloud” more than one: five of them. It called ‘five cloud and one train’. And I pretty much sure that the paper I shared about "TBCC based TSTO" is related on it

They are Hongyun (虹云，rainbow clouds); Xingyun(行云，flowing clouds); Feiyun(飞云，flying clouds); Kuaiyun(快云，fast clouds) and the Tengyun. The “one train” stand for “the flying train project” for the creation of a high-speed maglev transport system.

The Hongyun you can think it as Musk’s Star Link, but it is for the “low orbit satellite internet+5G+smart ship internet of Internet of Things. And it was completed its first full-system, full flow, multi-user broadband satellite Internet communications experiment. It has been broken down into three steps:"1+4+156”: the first step is to launch the first technical verification satellite by 2018, second step is to launch four service test satellites by the end of the 13th Five-Year Plan (sounds Soviet) to form a small constellation for users to have preliminary service experiences; the third step is to launch 156 satellites by the end of 14th Five-Year Plan (2021 is the first year of it). Those 156 satellites will be in operation and the business constellation will be built.

The Xingyun project is a low-orbit satellite-satellite laser communication, the so-called “Space-based Internet of Things. The α-phase twin satellites was launched in May 2020 and successful completion of all in-orbit tests. They said they would completed the β-phase of it and achieving small-scale business operations and initial realization of space-based IoT services. (I found the record at Wiki, launched at 12th May 2020 by KZ-1A rocket)

The Feiyun project is for building an airborne local area network. It has achieved a demonstration flight test of a local area network communication system based on a solar-powered UAV platform at an altitude of 8,000 meters.

The Kuaiyun project is stratospherically accessible floating mobile platform.It has successfully completed the stratospheric ultra-long stay floatation vehicle validation flight test.

Tengyun, ask FT The official statement is “The first combined power modal transformation flight test in China has been completed. Achieving a major breakthrough in air and space flight power technology.”

And the Flying Train is jointly promoting core technology research and industrialization synergy with advantageous units.

I don’t know about you guys, but I think is sci-if movies are still a bit conservative in comparison?

Optimistically, the fact that so little information is available about them at least suggests that CNSA is not wasting research funds on publicity

the official introduction about the “five cloud and one train”:http://www.xinhuanet.com/2020-10/19/c_1126631246.htm And it was published at 19th Oct. 2020

 

What do you think the possible names might be for the Next Generation Crewed Spacecraft and the crewed lunar lander?

My KSP replica of the NGCS is currently called "神箭" (Shenjian), which is just pulled from what Wikipedia claims the Long March series was renamed to in the 90s (but I have never heard that btw, so I can only assume it is false info lol).

Once I build it, I am planning to name the lunar lander "天箭" ("Tianjian", "Heavenly Arrow(?)") (based on the Shenzhou-Tianzhou dynamic) although that might be nonsensical. I am not familiar enough with the Chinese language(s)/space history/mythology/spacecraft naming conventions to come up with a good one.

[steve9728]

16 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

What do you think the possible names might be for the Next Generation Crewed Spacecraft and the crewed lunar lander?

My KSP replica of the NGCS is currently called "神箭" (Shenjian), which is just pulled from what Wikipedia claims the Long March series was renamed to in the 90s (but I have never heard that btw, so I can only assume it is false info lol).

Once I build it, I am planning to name the lunar lander "天箭" ("Tianjian", "Heavenly Arrow(?)") (based on the Shenzhou-Tianzhou dynamic) although that might be nonsensical. I am not familiar enough with the Chinese language(s)/space history/mythology/spacecraft naming conventions to come up with a good one.

Wow, I wouldn't dare to guess that Personally I prefer to continue to use the "Shenzhou" as the next generation spaceship and "Shenjian" for the new rocket: God's boat and God's arrow sounds pretty awlsome isn't it? 

The crewed lunar lander I think it still would be taken from ancient Chinese myth about the moon. One thing is certain that we will build the research station on the moon with our Russian friends. And in Chinese myth, the palace that Chang'e and Yutu living is the "Guanghan Palace", so I think at least the nickname we the Chinese use for the luner research station is the "Guanghan Gong (广寒宫)"

And Chang'e is "stole the elixir, flew up and floated to the moon". As I know so far about the Chinese, we don't use elixir to named something rocket science

Edited November 27, 2021 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Chinese myth about the moon

Question - is there a Chinese myth about some woman who pours out water / river from a jug?  Saw a cool sculpture - think it's Chinese - but don't know what it signifies.  Could be wind, but I think it's water.

 

[steve9728]

2 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Question - is there a Chinese myth about some woman who pours out water / river from a jug?  Saw a cool sculpture - think it's Chinese - but don't know what it signifies.  Could be wind, but I think it's water.

 

I have an impression, I might have had my picture taken with this sculpture when I was a kid, I'll have to look for it

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

11 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

I have an impression, I might have had my picture taken with this sculpture when I was a kid, I'll have to look for it

Took some pics - its a beautiful, and quite old piece.  My grandmother's.  She lived in SEA for @ 50 years.  https://imgur.com/a/DhBgVWP

 

[steve9728]

35 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Took some pics - its a beautiful, and quite old piece.  My grandmother's.  She lived in SEA for @ 50 years.  https://imgur.com/a/DhBgVWP

 

Well I definitely haven't had my picture taken with this one hahaha The statue is relatively close to the Tang Dynasty style (because of it's hairstyle). Apart from endless wars, a large part of China's history has been spent fighting floods: the female deity known as the river god was also drowned. So we don't have so much "some lady cried and created a river": the water we have is enough, really. Perhaps some other small local lake in some other small place will have a similar myth, but on the whole it was male mostly who could be worshipped as river gods and for who had done a remarkable job of controling floods.

Edited November 27, 2021 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

15 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Well I definitely haven't had my picture taken with this one hahaha The statue is relatively close to the Tang Dynasty style (because of it's hairstyle). Apart from endless wars, a large part of China's history has been spent fighting floods: the female deity known as the river god was also drowned. So we don't have so much "some lady cried and created a river": the water we have is enough, really. Perhaps some other small local lake in some other small place will have a similar myth, buth on the whole it was male mostly who could be worshipped as river gods and for who had done a remarkable job of controling floods.

Cool.  Closest we've been able to figure this out.  My grandmother was a great admirer of Chinese sculpture, Japanese painting and Indonesian woodworking.  

Edited November 27, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[steve9728]

48 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Cool.  Closest we've been able to figure this out.  My grandmother was a great admirer of Chinese sculpture, Japanese painting and Indonesian woodworking.  

The best thing to be Chinese is when I visit Japan and looking for something from hundreds or thousands years ago,I never need to look the introduction on the exhibition boards especially when it’s a book or paint or something else with text: they’re all writing by Chinese  Some of my friends visiting Korea also has same experiences.

My father: you see, even the Japanese hand writing is much more better than you!

Edited November 27, 2021 by steve9728

[steve9728]

On 11/27/2021 at 3:29 AM, steve9728 said:

crewed lunar lander?

Descuss it with friends in the group chat. They said that they prefer "Wugang" or "Houyi". The Wugang myth:https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_Stories/Wu_Gang. And Chang'e actually is the wife of Houyi: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_Stories/Houyi_and_Chang'e

Remember the signal relay satellite in Lagrangian L2 point orbit? It calls Queqiao, the Magpie Bridge(鹊桥). And this is the myth about it:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cowherd_and_the_Weaver_Girl

Damn, if the manned lunar lander named as Houyi, that's really romantic

Edited November 28, 2021 by steve9728

[SOXBLOX]

22 hours ago, steve9728 said:

Descuss it with friends in the group chat. They said that they prefer "Wugang" or "Houyi". The Wugang myth:https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_Stories/Wu_Gang. And Chang'e actually is the wife of Houyi: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_Stories/Houyi_and_Chang'e

Remember the signal relay satellite in Lagrangian L2 point orbit? It calls Queqiao, the Magpie Bridge(鹊桥). And this is the myth about it:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cowherd_and_the_Weaver_Girl

Damn, if the manned lunar lander named as Houyi, that's really romantic

Hey, that's cool! In the West, we usually just hear about Greco-Roman and Nordic myths, and sometimes Native American or whatever. It's always fun to see a completely new story. Thanks for the links!

[DDE]

Is "fractional" the new "literally"?

 

[kerbiloid]

A part falls down, a part gets to LEO.

What's not fractional here?

[steve9728]

7 hours ago, DDE said:

Is "fractional" the new "literally"?

 

Well actually I think what they try to hype about the "hypersonic test" is the Project Tengyun itself. Although I think we should all know about this, but I think I still need to point it out. If you compare thier "reports" with the features of the Project Tengyun, many of them can match up perfectly. 

No offence, when a country does not have a strict system of accountability for its officials, the power centre is full of amateurs in the profession, and most people don't scrutinise the acuracy of the reports (only we the space fan and military fans will focus on the unreasonable details they report actually). As member of the related research organisation, when you want to "get more research funding", isn't it just a matter of making the reports as horrific and outrageous as possible? 

Early Shenzhou spacecraft (1-6) would leave their orbital moduls in LEO for use as earth observation satellites, while the everyone's re-entry velocities for spacecraft on return were largely above Mach 20. Parts back to Earth and parts stay at orbit, is there anything diffcult for CN, US and RU space technology?

Just blame it on the scary-looking DF-17 missile warheads unveiled at the parade

Edited November 30, 2021 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

19 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

for its officials, the power centre is full of amateurs in the profession, and most people

There are pluses and minuses for every system.  In any system by the people and for the people - you get a variety of talents and problems in leadership.  In a system by the party and for the party, you get a different variety of talents and problems. 

19 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

making the reports as horrific and outrageous as possible? 

Is a technique for getting people energized and selling ad space - and perhaps shifting /acquiring funding as you write.  Not entirely limited to the West ('Pinks' have their own hype, n'est cie pas?) 

Is that worse than or better than demonstrating ultimate loyalty to the party and bosses thereof (to gain funding /relevancy) ? 

 

Shrug 

Edited November 30, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[steve9728]

1 minute ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

There are pluses and minuses for every system.  In any system by the people and for the people - you get a variety of talents and problems in leadership.  In a system by the party and for the party, you get a different variety of talents and problems. 

Is a technique for getting people energized and selling ad space - and perhaps shifting /acquiring funding as you write.  Not entirely limited to the West ('Pinks' have their own hype, n'est cie pas?) 

Is that better than demonstrating ultimate loyalty to the party and bosses thereof (to gain funding /relevancy) ? 

"Making money, just business, not shabby at all"

5 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

'Pinks' have their own hype

Well believe or not, in fact I tend to be the one to "throw cold water" on them in Chinese forums. Many of them are also really unreasonable at all.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

20 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

in Chinese forums. Many of them are also really unreasonable at all

No people on earth are ever free from the 'talk first think last' types. 

[steve9728]

4 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

No people on earth are ever free from the 'talk first think last' types. 

Inside the 'firewall' I'm "not patriotic enough", outside the 'firewall' I'm "ultra-nationalist". 

Me: So who the f am I?

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, steve9728 said:

So who the f am I?

A normal person? 

 

[steve9728]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

A normal person? 

 

Hope so and try to be

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, steve9728 said:

Well actually I think what they try to hype about the "hypersonic test" is the Project Tengyun itself. Although I think we should all know about this, but I think I still need to point it out. If you compare thier "reports" with the features of the Project Tengyun, many of them can match up perfectly. 

No offence, when a country does not have a strict system of accountability for its officials, the power centre is full of amateurs in the profession, and most people don't scrutinise the acuracy of the reports (only we the space fan and military fans will focus on the unreasonable details they report actually). As member of the related research organisation, when you want to "get more research funding", isn't it just a matter of making the reports as horrific and outrageous as possible? 

Early Shenzhou spacecraft (1-6) would leave their orbital moduls in LEO for use as earth observation satellites, while the everyone's re-entry velocities for spacecraft on return were largely above Mach 20. Parts back to Earth and parts stay at orbit, is there anything diffcult for CN, US and RU space technology?

Just blame it on the scary-looking DF-17 missile warheads unveiled at the parade

FOBS is an missile who fly lower than the ballistic trajectory and then do an burn to enter an reentry trajectory. It makes sense to have an orbital module to do this and then drop it, a lot like the ICBM buss. Point here is to US ABM systems who is primary designed to counter target in space. 
Not in the atmosphere where the interceptor only has to aim for the thermal bloom of the target and can use control surfaces to hit target  
 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

You realize that this is basically a 'new' engineering problem that will be solved at some point... Followed by the next doomsday weapon... Followed by the next solution... 

I'm an old hat at watching (among others things) US weapon development in relation to Soviet / Russian armor & warhead defeating tech (followed by the next new boom toy...).  So it's pretty easy to analogize that to what's going on here. 

I think the only thing 'new' is where the challenge is coming from.  Frankly it wasn't all that long ago that China finally figured out how to manufacture DU penetrators for tanks (and there was consternation then, too).  Even their 'copycat' aircraft weren't considered high end until recently. And yet the consensus is that the latest stuff is good.  So for a novel weapon to arise from China isn't /shouldn't be all that surprising for those 'in the industry'...

There is certainly an element of Euro-centrism / Western bias in the handwringing and neck fluttering from certain sectors - but my take (from the professionals I know) is the response has been a lot more pragmatic within their sphere. 

Mind you - my people are from the ground side.  Perhaps the Chair Force and Space Farce folks really are aflutter?

Edited December 1, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[SunlitZelkova]

22 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Mind you - my people are from the ground sphere.  Perhaps the Chair Force and Space Farce folks really are aflutter?

I would say yes. In the land domain, its basically just "another Russia", and there are few places where the US Army might actually meet the PLAGF on the battlefield anyways. For the USMC, prior to the PLA's modernization, they (China) already had things like shore based AShMs anyways, so I don't think there any particularly "shocking" new problems at hand for them to solve.

But for air and sea, it is something the Air Force and Navy never expected to happen. The USSR and Russia had/have, to a certain extent, very defensively oriented militaries, aside from Western Europe, they didn't really have the ability to "go" anywhere else in a meaningful manner. With China on the other hand, they are basically constructing a military designed to conduct missions more akin to the US- power projection.

This is exacerbated by the geography of the region and the nature of how American force deployment worked there until now. From the 1950s until now, forces in the Pacific seem to have been structured around halting Soviet forays into the area and responding to regional crises (the ones that still have not been resolved at present), but it was assumed that the enemy would have relatively inferior equipment and tactics (traditional Soviet client state level), that is, it would be the Korean War in terms of the power balance but with better bullets.

Now, its more like fighting against the Empire of Japan in WWII (technologically on par with the US, broad power projection capabilities), something that is very expensive and that US naval and air forces in the Pacific have not been structured to do, and, in fact, post-WWII naval technology has not been focused towards. Likewise, most post-WWII aircraft seem to have been designed around the tactical frontlines of Western Europe, not the enormous distances of the Pacific, and this too presents a major issue.

[steve9728]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

DU penetrators for tanks

As a slight correction, we don't use DU (or at least that's the official statement), we use tungsten: we have 59.4% of world's tungsten. There are even one of the bullets for the QBS09 shotgun with tungsten pellets, which has led to a Chinese internet meme: the Chinese way of treating tungsten. I've even seen this shotgun (and a couple of bayoneted QBZ-95) up close on a graduation trip to train station in Kunming, the capital of Yunnan Province, with my high schoold friends.

But yes, the official dovumentary says that the researchers who developed the first generation of anti-tank missiles didn't even know what they looked like before then.

Edited December 1, 2021 by steve9728