Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[steve9728]

3 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

This isn't about making the media happy.  It's about responsibility.  China cannot treat the rest of the world as callously as it has its own citizens. 

We get that there are reasons - everything from the race to catch up, the concept of 'acceptable losses' and a culture that recognizes collective action /sacrifice for the good of society - such that you guys are willing to accept what your government has done inside China... but the rest of the world expects 1st Tier nations to act like responsible members of the world community.  

China has proven it has 1st Tier capability with the Moon and Mars.  It is perfectly reasonable for the world community to demand of China that it act like a responsible nation.  

In this context - that means adding the systems to dispose of parts appropriately... When you refuse to do the minimum thing that others do?  It looks childish /selfish. 

Broadly agreed: a more responsible attitude is indeed better for all. That's what includes the installation of de-orbiting sails and the launch of Shijian-21 which attempts to actively capture abandoned satellites made for. But it has not been more than 10 years since this country demonstrated a spaceflight capability that can rival that of the US and Russia. If you travelled back ten years and retold the current CNSA news on the Chinese Internet, people would probably scold you, "What are you daydreaming about?" And if you do some research, you'll find that most of the news of this country's technological advances have taken at least 10 years from "Hey guys, I've got an idea", to the inception of the project, to the actual maturation of the application. Just I know so far that number of other projects that are even longer than that. The current official "ambition" for the future is that they want the rocket to be "use them like a civil airliner". Any tech takes time to develop, just give them some.

So, CZ-5B designer, what were you thinking about the core stage re-enter?

 

You'd better really do that!

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

16 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

it has not been more than 10 years since this country demonstrated a spaceflight capability that can rival that of the US and Russia

Fair point 

16 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Any tech takes time to develop, just give them some

-well the news on the regulatory change in the tweet is a good start. Thanks! 

[steve9728]

Another order from Egypt. The mission patches about Horus-1 and 2 can be combined:

via. https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/tP-VVjYaGnSrY1shWMwlKQ

Spoiler

The design idea they put:

The CZ-2C rocket successfully sent the Horus-2 remote-sensing satellite from JSLC. 

The design of this patch echoes that of the previous launch of Horus-1 which was sent by CZ-2C, and also uses elements of the Jiuquan Drum Tower and silk ribbon, by borrowing different shades to reflect the passage of time.

By combining the mission patches from both launches, the entire Jiuquan Drum Tower can be stitched together. A red ribbon runs from the left to right, also signifying the building of the 'Belt and Road'. Strengthening all-around exchanges and allowing space technology to better serve all mankind.

Each Drum Tower is a watcher of time in the ancient city. It stands silently, guarding the land of the motherland. Every day when the sun rises, the orange light falls on the earth, and the orange drum tower in the patch is taken from this scene. This beautiful scene expresses our wishes for the prosperity and peace of our country, and our aspirations for the aerospace industry to continue to write a magnificent chapter in its history.

Spoiler

Not clear how many orders have been signed between Egypt and us, and you know, there are many Egyptian mythological gods. For an ancient city with a 'drum tower', there must also have a 'bell tower' symmetrically located along the city's central axis (ancient China used a bell tower and a drum tower to tell the time. And ringing the bell at sunrise to open the city gates in the morning and the drum at sunset and closing the gates to enforce the curfew). Maybe I've got the naming and patch elements for the next mission guessed out, if any

 

Strange record: in the hours before the launch of the Horus-2, JSLC had four rockets in "upright position": CZ-2C, which sent the Horus-2, Zhuque-2, CZ-2F/G Y16, which was on standby at the VAB for emergency rescue, and CZ-2F/G Y17, which was being assembled.

Edited March 13, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

 

 

Admiral Li Shangfu (李尚福) has become the new Minister of Defence. He came to XSLC after graduating in 1982 and was served as:

• Deputy Commander, PLA 63790 (Xichang Base)
• Director/Commander of XSLC
• General Director of the launch site system of the Lunar Orbiting Project
• Commander of the Chang'e-2 Mission Launch Area Command
• Chief of Staff, Command of PLA General Armament Department
• Deputy Director General of PLA Genral Armaments Department
• Deputy Commander and Chief of Staff of PLASSF
• Head of the Equipment Development Department of the Central Military Commission.
• General Director of China Manned Space Project
• Commander of the General Command of the Space Station Mission

Spoiler

What a bright CV!

[AckSed]

That is a lot of hats, many of them military.

I know before NASA came along, America's Air Force developed a parallel space program to serve their needs, with development also done by the Navy and a bit by the Army. The inter-departmental rivalries were at times destructive. Indeed, it's safe to say that in the early days, space was highly militarised until the civilians came along.

CNSA seems to be much more tightly wedded to the military. Could they ever grow to the point they would be allowed to be mostly civilian? Are there any similar rivalries or tensions between CNSA and branches of the PLA?

[steve9728]

23 hours ago, steve9728 said:

Any tech takes time to develop, just give them some.

Thinking back the recent years, they really trying to control the dropping area:

In the first stage they used a group of grid fins and it was on the CZ-2D in the mission of CHASE. If I remember correctly, one of the fins was reused for second time.

 

Second stage using the de-orbit sails. I don't know if it's considered good news or bad, but the thing that "hello America" over Texas days ago was followed by the remains of at least six five such rockets with de-orbiting sails on the orbit now (if I remember correctly there were more than that. There were three or four more other mission patches without an "ocean background" but shows that they have a sail on the upper stage at the time of those surveillance satellite launched). 

 

 

The fairings they tried to use parachute in 2021 (This is a link in Chinese, but there is a 13 second video of a camera on the fairing capturing the moment the parachute opens)

And the dead satellite, they used the Shijian-21 to tow it to the graveyard orbit.

You can tell that someone are at least aware of the problem.

Edited March 13, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

7 hours ago, AckSed said:

That is a lot of hats, many of them military.

I know before NASA came along, America's Air Force developed a parallel space program to serve their needs, with development also done by the Navy and a bit by the Army. The inter-departmental rivalries were at times destructive. Indeed, it's safe to say that in the early days, space was highly militarised until the civilians came along.

CNSA seems to be much more tightly wedded to the military. Could they ever grow to the point they would be allowed to be mostly civilian? Are there any similar rivalries or tensions between CNSA and branches of the PLA?

First, the staff in the CNSA, such as the people in the Beijing Ground Control Center who counting down the launch and answering the astronauts from the astronaut support team answering "Shuguang Copy", are "100% pure civilian". Second, CNSA's subsidiaries are social institutions: they are recruiting fresh university students on job boards. Third, selection of astronauts for the new echelon were open to talent from universities and research institutions: they even recruiting people from Hong Kong. So yeah, to put it mildly, in this field of technological research and development, they are the nerds who never hold a gun. 

And the PLA has always had subordinate aerospace research department. They merged with the cyber information security department and the information and communication department Space Systems in 2015 to form PLASSF. And, well, mildly again, they are the nerds who can touch a gun. In addition to this part of rocket science, the launch site has a security department, and this is the responsibility of the military. For in the early years there were rumour-like stories about arrests for someone illegal mapping near the launch sites and camouflaged radio devices being placed in the bricks of the old Great Wall.

Don't know much about the link between the US military service system and NASA, but I guess the relationship between PLASSF and CNSA is more similar to that between NASA and the US Space Force + US Strategic Command. And it's ok to think CNSA don't "civilian enough", there's commercial company. Their relationship with the military, apart from any orders they may have, is to declare permission to use airspace. The bureaucrats in CN and US don't operate with the same logic or same needs to be met as each other. There is not as intense competition between the PLA services and the different organizations and departments. If there must be competition, it is in many research projects since the 1950s until recent years: often technology is imported from abroad, which is digested and understood under licence for production, while domestic research on the same technology is carried out in parallel in other units in the same industry. Such as in the development of the PLA's missile TEL vehicles.

Spoiler

On 12/16/2022 at 6:03 PM, steve9728 said:

I watched an introductory video about Chinese TEL vehicle (but of course it's full Chinese without English subtitles). That make lots of sense why CNSA using same trucks as PLARF: This is because the manufacturers of TEL for launch vehicles are from the "Wanshan Plant(万山厂)" and "Tai'an  Plant(泰安厂)". The full name of "Wanshan Plant" is Hubei Sanjiang Aerospace Wanshan Special Vehicle Co. It's a manufacturer under the  China Aerospace Sanjiang Company, aka Forth Institute of CASIC. The "Tai'an Plant" full name is Taian Aerospace Special Vehicle Co. LTD (I don't know why they put a wrong picture of a proton rocket on their website, maybe it was the work from some interns). Which is a manufacturer under China Academy of Launch Vehicles, aka First Institute of CASC.

In 1998, Wanshan began to master the development of special vehicle technology: through a joint venture with the Minsk Automobile Plant  in the form of a technical participation in the form of a transfer of technology, and the restructured Wanshan Company, Sanjiang Volat Special Vehicle Co. Ltd. was established. With this, Wanshan thoroughly digested and absorbed the technology of the MAZ-543. Based on that, a series of military heavy-duty off-road special vehicles were launched. Such as the WS-2500 10×8 chassis, which is used in the DF-16 and DF-21 missiles, the WS-2600 10×10 chassis, which is used in YJ-12B missiles. After 12 years of good cooperation between both sides, the Minsk side handed over the technology for the six-axle drive to Wanshan in 2010. This resulted in WS-2900 12×12 chassis and laid the technical basis for the development of the subsequent 8-axle chassis.

But Wanshan didn't deliver a satisfactory result on the 16×16 chassis because of the transmission structure and lack of power output of the engine. However, HTF5980A 16×16 chassis developed by Tai'an, finally succeeded in technology and production after eight years of research and development. The remarkable thing is that the central government decision makers in the planning of the overall strategic layout of the development of the country's special vehicles and didn't let Tai'an also go "Sino-foreign joint venture, the introduction of technology" development program. Instead, it was asked to follow the path of independent research and development with the technical support of other sister units. Unlike Wanshan's technology which is introduced through foreign cooperation, Tai'an's core technology has accumulated completed independent intellectual property rights. Before 2010, their only presentable products were TA5380 which for the HQ-9 anti-air missile and TA5450 for DF-15 tactical missiles. In 2002 Tai'an started the development of eight-axle special vehicle and in 2006 the first generation HTF5980 was designed. The performance of the first generation at this time was still lacking, so after four years of technical work, they completed the design of the 16×16 heavy-duty off-road special vehicle HTF5980A and HTF5980B. The technical difficulties of the 8-axle drive technology have been completely overcome. Naturally, in the subsequent competition, Tai'an's HTF5980 beat out Wanshan's WS series chassis and was selected as the chassis for the Chinese ICBM TEL vehicle, such as DF-31A and DF-41.

There are rumours on the internet that Tai'an is working on a diesel-electric hybrid engine. But this kind of thing is basically in a highly secretive state where it cannot be proven or disproven. So, I won't make any speculations.

 

So now, as for why Kuaizhou or something using TEL, well, "is it strange for a subordinate to produce something useful for its superiors?"

 

It's not quite clear how CNSA's launch schedule is prioritised. And as I said, it hasn't been more than a decade since this country demonstrated the ability to match its international counterparts in the space sector. The PLA has a lot of current satellite launch needs, but at the same time, there are a large number of local governments in different provinces in China that have satellite use needs such as land planning and environmental protection monitoring. Not to mention the number of university research institutes.

Edited March 13, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

Another Kuaizhou-1A with advertisement incoming. This time is the brand of Baijiu "Jiu Jiang Shuang Zheng (九江双蒸)".  It's something 500ml bottle of distilled spirits with an alcohol content of 42° or more can be bought for around 24 RMB. It is more commonly found in the hands of people who have lost their love and are heartbroken.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

23 hours ago, steve9728 said:

Admiral Li Shangfu (李尚福) has become the new Minister of Defence. He came to XSLC after graduating in 1982 and was served as:

This year the PLA's decorations system has been reformed from once representing only time served in the military to a system of wearing medals roughly in line with other countries around the world (FINALLY!). So, we can read the former XSLC commander's "CV" in uniform:

Spoiler

• Third-Class of Meritorious Servisce Medal, Member of the CMC, 4 times of Individual Recognition
• 2 times of Third-Class of Commendation Medals, 2 times of Third-Class Outstanding Grassroots Officer Honours, 8 times of Commemorative Medal for Major Military non-War Operation 
• 10 times of Experience in Major Special Assignments, Golden Medal of Guarding the Frontiers, Chief Officer in Corps Level Experience
• Deputy Officer in Corps Level Experience, Chief Officer in Divisions Level Experience, Experience of the Main Leaders of the CMC
• Experience of Main Leaders in Theater Commands, Experience of the Main Leaders of the Departments within the Corps Level Organizations, Experience in PLASSF
• Experience of serving in professional and technical positions at secondary level, Advanced and intermediate Command Education Training Experience
• Primary Command Education Training Experience, 40 Years of Service, 6 Years of Service (46 years in total)

The XSLC is indeed a particularly tough place. As the criteria for the Golden Medal of Guarding the Frontiers, requires service in a remote and difficult area for more than three times the time spent in the corresponding area. The Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture, in which XSLC is located, has always been one of the extremely difficult areas for poverty eradication.

[steve9728]

Professor from Macau expected the Zhurong the rover can wake up at Martian summer: https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgwqpa/china-mars-rover-zhurong-space?continueFlag=041a033ae4666d201f3fab06f0beb86c

Edited March 14, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

Needle bolt and centrifugal amphoteric gas generators for the engine "Yuanli(原力)-85" (原力is the Chinese translate "the force" in Star War) from ORIENSPACE (东方空间), was finished the first test-run.

"'Yuanli-85' is the first 100-ton liquid oxygen paraffin engine developed by ORIENSPACE. It uses a gas generator cycle and a pin-bolt injector, and is characterised by high reliability, high thrust, reusability, non-toxic environmentally friendly and more economic"

"May the force be with you"

Edited March 14, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

CZ-11 successfully launched Shiyan-19 satellite in 19:41 CST

via. https://weibo.com/u/5616492130

yep, another cold launch

 

add: mission patch this time:

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by steve9728

[SpacestationDog]

51 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

CZ-11 successfully launched Shiyan-19 satellite in 19:41 CST

via. https://weibo.com/u/5616492130

yep, another cold launch

 

 

（似乎是）头一次见长11一箭一星

[steve9728]

25 minutes ago, SpacestationDog said:

（似乎是）头一次见长11一箭一星

Nope, according to the wiki that's the third time it didn't sent multiple sats by one rocket. Including the last time.

But, yeah, this rocket has been on many missions that sent multiple sats at once: 13 times of 16.

[steve9728]

Hello France!

Edited March 15, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

The module that run independently but in co-orbit in with the station I think can solve the problem like the gamma rays altimeter on the Shenzhou effecting experiment payloads.

[steve9728]

 

 

[steve9728]

 

Hope their second mission can be success

[steve9728]

Tiangong TV S04E17: Let's go! I'll show you the mountains and the sea of this world (Don't worry, here's no human language)

Looks like it was taken from when the station flies over the Australia

 

Have read an interesting article named "Analysis of Application Scheme of Three-body Periodic Orbits in Manned Lunar Exploration" (that one is full Chinese). This article discusses the different advantages and disadvantages of the Halo orbit near the Earth-Moon L2 point, the near-branch NRHO near the Moon and the large value retrograde orbit, DRO, for the manned lunar exploration.

The result of this article in short is:

1. Go to the moon based on NRHO (like Artemis Project): from LEO to LLO, the back to Earth. The DV required for complete Earth-Moon round trip (without lunar landing) is 5289.094m/s. The total flight time is 12.415d and the DV required to calculate only the "entry to NRHO + return from NRHO" is 812.738m/s.
2. Go to the moon based on Halo near the Earth-Moon L2 point: The DV required for complete Earth-Moon round trip (without lunar landing) is 5267.494m/s.  The total flight time is 22.084d and the DV required to calculate on the "entry to Halo + return from Halo" is 732.544m/s
3. Go to the moon based on DRO: The DV required for complete Earth-Moon round trip (without lunar landing) is 5244.290m/s, The total flight time is 27.457d and the DV required to calculate on the "entry DRO + return from DRO" is 584.384m/s

• the time it needs: DRO>Halo> NRHO
• the fuel it needs: DRO>Halo>NRHO
• All this three can go every conner of the lunar surface. But NRHO is better for the mission at lunar polar regions, Halo is better for the back of the moon, and DRO can support deep space missions
• "Three-body periodic orbit is more suitable for missions that require a larger lunar landing window, full lunar access, and better support for subsequent deep space missions. NRHO are preferred for missions that require a short time to observe the lunar polar regions, while Halo orbit are preferred for missions to the back of the moon."

Edited March 22, 2023 by steve9728

[steve9728]

via.https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/pmxMMV705Jjb6eTkFak1zA

[steve9728]

5 hours ago, steve9728 said:

via.https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/pmxMMV705Jjb6eTkFak1zA

add: "How to use the backlighting wisely for photography"

via. https://weibo.com/6528178851/Myt1Ybqiu

Spoiler

You don't look like you've shot something launch vehicle with this lighting and composition

[SOXBLOX]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/why-chinese-rockets-spew-toxic-bright-red-gas-clouds-on-launch

 

The War Zone features Scott Manley's video on hypergolics in an article on old Chinese launch vehicles like the LM3B. I like to reference them here a lot, and now they've turned around and referenced one of our own. Sometimes the internet is a small world!

 

EDIT: Finished reading... Plus two more! 

Edited March 23, 2023 by SOXBLOX

[steve9728]

8 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/why-chinese-rockets-spew-toxic-bright-red-gas-clouds-on-launch

The next gen rocket, CZ-7 rocket family is for replacing the CZ-3 family. And there's a joke-like sound that the Zhuque-2 is some kind using LOX and methane version CZ-2 (although I doubt that: You can't say they are 'related' simply because they are of similar height and ability). Still the same words: any tech takes time to develop. Both good news and bad for those rockets which using the toxic propellants is now the time when these rockets are at their most reliable, economical, and practical, some kind "prime age" for them. From the military to the civilian sector, there is a large and urgent need for satellite launches. It makes perfect sense then to arrange reliable and economical rockets for these satellites.

Not to mention how much time it takes for tech to develop, you need time even for those factory line to switch or build a new one for the new product and prove its reliability!

At the time of the development of these rockets, China was not wealthy and even the army needed to engage in business activities. It's not a fair point to take the deep and leading rocket tech accumulation of the US and accuse CN of "this and that". "You Chinese can obviously do better, you don't do it, you just don't care about your people!" Such *** point is allergenic - nothing of two countries is alike in one way or another, yet they always want to compare, is something I can't ever understand.

Today is the 25th anniversary of the first flight of the J-10 fighter. Here's the one of aeronautical engineers from 25 years ago:

Edited March 23, 2023 by steve9728

[SOXBLOX]

1 hour ago, steve9728 said:

The next gen rocket, CZ-7 rocket family is for replacing the CZ-3 family. And there's a joke-like sound that the Juque-2 is some kind using LOX and methane version CZ-2 (although I doubt that: You can't say they are 'related' simply because they are of similar height and ability). Still the same words: any tech takes time to develop. Both good news and bad for those rockets which using the toxic propellants is now the time when these rockets are at their most reliable, economical, and practical, some kind "prime age" for them. From the military to the civilian sector, there is a large and urgent need for satellite launches. It makes perfect sense then to arrange reliable and economical rockets for these satellites.

Not to mention how much time it takes for tech to develop, you need time even for those factory line to switch or build a new one for the new product and prove its reliability!

At the time of the development of these rockets, China was not wealthy and even the army needed to engage in business activities. It's not a fair point to take the deep and leading rocket tech accumulation of the US and accuse CN of "this and that". "You Chinese can obviously do better, you don't do it, you just don't care about your people!" Such *** point is allergenic - nothing of two countries is alike in one way or another, yet they always want to compare, is something I can't ever understand.

Today is the 25th anniversary of the first flight of the J-10 fighter. Here's the one of aeronautical engineers from 25 years ago:

I wasn't judging. As the article says, the US used hypergolics in Titan-derived LVs and predecessors before the Chinese even had spaceflight. It's just preferable when leaders avoid letting rocket stages fall on inhabited areas. 

[steve9728]

2 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

I wasn't judging. As the article says, the US used hypergolics in Titan-derived LVs and predecessors before the Chinese even had spaceflight. It's just preferable when leaders avoid letting rocket stages fall on inhabited areas. 

I know. I suggest you read this: the Third Front Project. No one would be idiotic enough to move a set of backups of their industrial system for nothing, from the eastern seaboard and northeast, which already consist of a relatively solid industrial base, to a less accessible part of this country that some of them has just completed its fight against poverty in recent years.

The location of XSLC has been selected in 1970. At present no one on this planet can manage to predict what some areas will be like in 53 years later. Cold launching at sea and the construction of Wenchang Launch Site are all the preparation for relegating these launch sites to secondary role. Especially the Wenchang: fun fact, currently Wenchang Launch Site is the subsidiary launch site of XSLC.

Edited March 23, 2023 by steve9728