Chinese Space Program (CNSA) & Ch. commercial launch and discussion

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

22 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

the official statement

Grin.

 

[steve9728]

Quote

 

Ha, the Yutu II has found a small but strange object on the moon. I'm guessing it's a camera "ghost" or some kind of weird light refraction like "Face on Mars"?

Edited December 7, 2021 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

53 minutes ago, steve9728 said:

Ha, the Yutu II has found a small but strange object on the moon. I'm guessing it's a camera "ghost" or some kind of weird light refraction like "Face on Mars"?

Haven't you played KSP?  Its an ARCH!!!

 

 

 

...

btw - like the new avatar.

[steve9728]

After eight years, Wang Yaping gave us another physics lesson in space:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_BQN2ypAJ0 

Don't worry this video got English subtitle

I'm actually quite curious what happens when you put a Mentos in a bottle of Coke in space. "Good experiment, just a bit space station costly"

[DDE]

11 hours ago, steve9728 said:

I'm actually quite curious what happens when you put a Mentos in a bottle of Coke in space. "Good experiment, just a bit space station costly"

"Take it outside"

[kerbiloid]

In space you don't need Mentos. Just semi-open the cap.

[steve9728]

And we have the 400 th mission of the Long March series of launch vehicles: http://www.news.cn/english/2021-12/10/c_1310363922.htm

Chinese domestic news incidentally mentions the official confirmation that a heavy launch vehicle is being developed. Long Lehao, currently chief designer of the launch vehicle series at the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology and deputy chief designer of CNSA's Lunar Exploration Project, said, "Before 2030, if everything goes well, we should be going to the moon to deliver people"

the 400 mission of Long March (CZ) rocket:

CZ-1: 2 times (2 successes)
CZ-2: 4 times (3 successes and 1 failure)
CZ-2C: 59 times (58 successes, 1 failure)
CZ-2D: 56 times (55 successes, 1 partial failure)
CZ-2E: 7 times (50 successes, 2 failure)
CZ-2F: 16 times (16 successes )
CZ-3: 13 times (10 successes, 3 failure)
CZ-3A: 27 times (27 successes)
CZ-3B: 81 times (77 successes, 2 failure, 2 partial failure)
CZ-3C 18 times (18 successes)
CZ-4A: 2 times (20 successes )
CZ-4B: 45 times (44 successes, 1 failure)
CZ-4C: 37 times (35 successes, 2 failure)
CZ-5: 5times (4 successes, 1 failure)
CZ-5B: 2 times (2 successes )
CZ-6: 8 times (8 successes )
CZ-7: 4 times (4 successes )
CZ-7A: 2 times (1 success and 1 failure)
CZ-8: 1 time (1successes )
CZ-11: 11 times (11 successes )

Edited December 13, 2021 by steve9728

[DDE]

6 hours ago, steve9728 said:

And we have the 400 th mission of the Long March series of launch vehicles: http://www.news.cn/english/2021-12/10/c_1310363922.htm

Race you to 2000, then )

[SunlitZelkova]

https://www.space.com/china-mars-rover-communicates-via-european-orbiter

Great news. The relay test between Mars Express and Zhurong was successful!

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https://insidegnss.com/beidou-conducts-laser-communication-experiment-steps-ahead-of-u-s-could-improve-satnav-accuracy/ (Ignore the Hubble image. There are other versions of this story from more reputable sources, so apart from possibly manufactured details, the event is real, but this one does not have a paywall)

China has conducted a laser communications test ahead of NASA's LCRD. From English sources, details are sparse, but it involved *a* BeiDou satellite apparently.

[steve9728]

News: 00:09 14th Dec.2021 (UTC/GMT+08:00), CZ-3B's 82nd mission was successfully launched the Tianlian(Sky Chain, 天链)-2-02 Satellite.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2021/12/second-tianlian-ii/

https://tass.com/science/1375003

[steve9728]

40 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

laser communications

Actually, in 2017, Shijian(Practice, 实践)13 Satelllite, has already conducted a high-orbit satellite laser two-way communication test verification. According to my understanding and experience of official documents, when they say "XX technology has passed the verification and reached the advanced level" = met the design target, but still have space for improvement. And if then conduct another similar experiment but in different environment some time later, such as the successful laser communication experiment between satellites by Xingyun(Walking cloud,行云)-2-01 and 02 Satellite in May 2020, and then published the statement "we made it!", often means that this "XX technology" "ok, we can use it with confidence." 

(If don't, I suggest you don't ask question and wait until let time tell you, such as the CZ-5)

Shijian-13 and Xingyun-02 one is in high orbit and one is in low orbit. So, the Beidou use it today I can only say:

Surprised, but not totally surprised

Edited December 14, 2021 by steve9728

[steve9728]

Oh and btw, the Xinhua Net last year said that CASIC plan to launch 12 laser communicate satellite at 2021. Which the β-stage of "Xingyun" Project.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-09/07/c_139349012.htm

Edited December 14, 2021 by steve9728

[DDE]

7 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

https://insidegnss.com/beidou-conducts-laser-communication-experiment-steps-ahead-of-u-s-could-improve-satnav-accuracy/ (Ignore the Hubble image. There are other versions of this story from more reputable sources, so apart from possibly manufactured details, the event is real, but this one does not have a paywall)

China has conducted a laser communications test ahead of NASA's LCRD. From English sources, details are sparse, but it involved *a* BeiDou satellite apparently.

2018

http://vestnik-glonass.ru/stati/v-rossii-prodolzhayutsya-uspeshnye-ispytaniya-lazernogo-glonass/

[SunlitZelkova]

15 hours ago, DDE said:

2018

http://vestnik-glonass.ru/stati/v-rossii-prodolzhayutsya-uspeshnye-ispytaniya-lazernogo-glonass/

Another thing recently (I don't recall this being shared)- https://www.roscosmos.ru/33568/

Russia and China have agreed on cooperation between 2021 and 2025. It will include "integrated and innovative development of the GLONASS and Beidou systems, increasing their compatibility and complementarity" (from Google translate) and ground measurement stations for each other's systems will be built in the other country.

The document claims it is purely for civil purposes (which it probably is), but I wonder if this could lead to Russian ships using Beidou to navigate and Chinese ships using GLONASS in future agreements. In addition, China possesses the FT PGB guidance kit for dumb bombs (a JDAM equivalent), and being able to utilize GLONASS would be useful.

Of course, that would all only be useful in combat if a true world war were to occur. In a regional conflict, China would not want to lend Russia data from BeiDou, lest it be drawn into the war, and likewise Russia would not want to let China use GLONASS to guide bombs, as that would certainly draw Russia into the war.

[steve9728]

5 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Another thing recently (I don't recall this being shared)- https://www.roscosmos.ru/33568/

Russia and China have agreed on cooperation between 2021 and 2025. It will include "integrated and innovative development of the GLONASS and Beidou systems, increasing their compatibility and complementarity" (from Google translate) and ground measurement stations for each other's systems will be built in the other country.

The document claims it is purely for civil purposes (which it probably is), but I wonder if this could lead to Russian ships using Beidou to navigate and Chinese ships using GLONASS in future agreements. In addition, China possesses the FT PGB guidance kit for dumb bombs (a JDAM equivalent), and being able to utilize GLONASS would be useful.

Of course, that would all only be useful in combat if a true world war were to occur. In a regional conflict, China would not want to lend Russia data from BeiDou, lest it be drawn into the war, and likewise Russia would not want to let China use GLONASS to guide bombs, as that would certainly draw Russia into the war.

This year, our "海上联合-2021" （Joint Sea 2021, Морское взаимодействие-2021) exercise with Russia (in fact, it is not the first time, the tenth time) has used a "Joint Command and Operations Information System software", which allows the two navies to connect not only the fleet intelligence network, the firepower coordination network, the early warning system network, the staff operation network, the operation evaluation network, but even the data chain is shared by both armies. So if we share our Beidou or Glonass, don't be so surprise (shrug)

https://www.huaxia.com/c/2021/10/21/832237.shtml

And not only the navies, also the armies:http://www.mod.gov.cn/action/2021-08/15/content_4891979.htm

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Well anyway,  Chinese military fan have been amused for some time by the pic from the Japanese (the pic 2 from the twitter). I don't know what about our Russian brothers thought, but it caused quite a stir in the Japanese civil forum for a while anyway.

Compared to the strange brain of our military journalists (yes all Chinese military fans are cursing about it), the photographer of the Japanese defence agency is really not bad I have to say.

Edited December 15, 2021 by steve9728

[Beccab]

 

[steve9728]

7 hours ago, Beccab said:

 

I do some wiki. Shows that this is the third failed Chinese space launch this year. The first two were private companies' SQX-1 (Hyperbola-1, 双曲线) rocket.

The reasons for the failures were: "a piece of insulation foam fell off the rudder and was blown off again, causing the control system to fail and causing an abrupt change in attitude" and "the fairing did not separate properly and failed to deliver the satellite into the intended 500km SSO orbit", both targeted in Sun-synchronous orbit.

Perhaps the other advantage about solid fuel rockets is that people don't feel so bad even when it hit the ground.

[SunlitZelkova]

https://spacenews.com/chinas-new-rocket-for-crewed-moon-missions-to-launch-around-2026/

This is the 921 rocket, also known as the Long March 5DY, and which I personally think could end up being the lucky rocket to receive the designation "Long March 10" (which AFAIK has not been used yet despite the LM-9 and LM-11 existing).

To be clear though, this is the equivalent of Korolev or Chelomei saying "we (our design bureau) will launch the Moon rocket by 1967". What the Chinese government's schedule looks like is still unclear.

On the other hand, preliminary development work appears to be underway-

http://finance.people.com.cn/n1/2021/1103/c1004-32272645.html

This is a 3.8m diameter LOX tank (test article I think, this is being done with Google Translate), with a length of 21 meters- the longest such tank China has produced. The article mentions it being related to development of a "new carrier rocket". However, there are no known Long March rockets under development with that diameter. Thus, it could be concluded that this is related to the development of the Long March 5DY, as it will use stretched LM-5 cores.

Development may be even further along according to the article below, although I am personally a bit more skeptical. It claims thrust structures are already undergoing testing.

https://www.lianeon.org/p/chinas-mysterious-manned-moon-rocket

Reading this article however, I kind of wonder about the LM-5DY's purpose and origins.

Perhaps CASIC decided to take advantage of signs NASA was looking into a crewed lunar program post-Asteroid Redirect, certainly their top executives and engineers are kept apprise of American developments, and there is no doubt the MSS does its best to keep tabs on what's happening at NASA.

They may have decided to take advantage of that politically to make a crewed landing happen quicker (elderly Chinese aerospace engineers want to put people on the Moon ASAP just as engineers and space fans alike presumably do in the US) by offering a, in theory, cheaper rocket for the job. The LM-5DY uses stretched LM-5 cores and, for the most part, new versions of engines that already exist. This would certainly be much safer than attempting to develop an entirely new super heavy launch vehicle (Long March 9).

In contrast with the completely new LM-9, the LM-5DY uses a proven concept- "triple core-ing" an existing rocket. This would be very attractive in the face of a hypothetical threat of American domination of lunar exploration. LEO is "free"- everyone knows that. But when a hab gets planted down on something as "local" as the Moon, and a nation starts regularly exploring and theoretically mining an area, no one knows what will happen. If I was a high ranking Chinese strategist, given the fate of something as simple as the Open Skies Treaty, I would not put much faith in "the other OST".

The Chinese government does appear to have taken interest in the establishment of a lunar economy. The urgency surrounding the issue wouldn't really be "get there first" as much as it would be "get there in the most efficient manner, as quick as feasible (but of course take the necessary time and don't rush)".

------

On another note, in case you are wondering what happened to it, the Long March 9 appears to have evolved into China's answer to Starship- basically a Saturn V class rocket using a Falcon 9 mission profile, if not during the first launches, which will likely be expendable, eventually. It will play no major role in the potential crewed lunar program apart from launching very large base modules.

[steve9728]

17 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

LM-5DY's purpose and origins.

Well I think it's kind like CZ-5 rocket's core first stage ×3, kind like Falcon Heavy. And then add up a longer version second stage. But in fact, the "original version" CZ-5 can also efford to bring the new manned spacecraft into orbit. In terms of development costs, it wouldn't be very cost effective to develop another new rocket just for a new manned spacecraft. So it's safe to assume that the CZ-5DY is probably not designed to send a new manned spacecraft to dock with the Tiangong Space Station. 

In addition to the rockets we have to wait for the new rocket launch site to be built. Because the total height of the CZ-5 rocket is 53-56 metres, while the new rocket will be >90 metres.

Translate:

1. Launch of the lunar lander using a new generation launch vehicle (I believe it's the CZ-5DY in this slide)
2. Earth-Moon transfer of the lunar lander and waiting in circumlunar orbit
3-4. Launch of a new generation manned spacecraft using CZ-5DY and placing it in an Earth-Moon transfer orbit
5. Docking with the waiting lander in circumlunar orbit
6. Two astronauts on the Moon for six hours
7. take-off from the lunar surface and docking with a manned spacecraft
8. Return of the capsule to Earth

The red words at bottom right: Based on the development of the CZ-5 rocket, two rockets were used to dock in near lunar orbit

(To a large extent I think it resembles the Soviet moon landing program. I have to say that our northern neighbours are really good teachers for us)

I still stand by my view that 2026 to 2030 is a bit too hasty if you look at the pattern that has been going on. It's possible that I'm a little out of step with China after three to four years abroad. If the CNSA is an explosion of growth similar to the Chinese Navy's "055 mode", then it is very possible.

055 mode: China's newest 10,000-ton displacement destroyer - Type 055, (destroyer is the official term, Chinese domestic private forums and the West call her a cruiser) when it first appeared in the public eye, everyone thought that at most one or two ships would be built to try, but it was not expected that the first batch of four ships would be built at once, not to mention that there are plans to build a second batch of eight ships.

Edited December 20, 2021 by steve9728

[DDE]

Russia's Sberbank wants into Chinese space insurance

https://www.asn-news.ru/news/78275

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Just now, DDE said:

Russia's Sberbank wants into Chinese space insurance

https://www.asn-news.ru/news/78275

Which tells you that they're confident China is done blowing up payloads. 

[DDE]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Which tells you that they're confident China is done blowing up payloads. 

If this former employer of mine can go into Russia's mandatory vehicle owner liability insurance, they can manage some explodey rockets. Hopefully they won't be like VEB, who managed to invest a solid chunk of Russia's federal pension funds into Greek bonds.

[steve9728]

15 hours ago, DDE said:

invest a solid chunk of Russia's federal pension funds into Greek bonds

Financial Genius！

[steve9728]

Quote

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/448749755

The CZ-7A Y3 mission will be launched from 201 launch site at the Wenchang Space Center. The rocket has now been transferred to the launch tower. According to the article, the rocket has been found to be longer than the previous missions: it has been replaced by a longer fairing, which the author speculate has increased from the original 60.1m to almost 62.6m. It also set a new record for the aspect ratio of Chinese launch vehicles: from 17.94 in the Y1 &Y2 missions to 18.69 this time. Close to Space X's Falcon 9's  18.92.

 Slim and white rocket, stepping perfectly on my aesthetic

Edited December 22, 2021 by steve9728

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Isn't white a funereal color in China?  I'd think it (and others) would be painted something festive