KSP Weekly: The Eridania Region

[Kosmonaut]

3 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

The point is that the DLC is looking nice and that with the talk of srbs and such, there are suggestions on ways to add additional coolness to the expansion.

Wet workshops WOULD be very cool to add to this- I would love to see not only things that actually happened in the DLC but also things that didn't- TMK, Wet Workshop Skylab, Apollo Venus Flyby and the Apollo Applications Program in general, or Gemini Lunar Landings

[Vanamonde]

9 hours ago, passinglurker said:

I sincerely hope this isn't actually reflective of what we can expect from "finished" work.

At this point, you should expect it, since you hate everything Squad shows. 

[passinglurker]

1 hour ago, Vanamonde said:

At this point, you should expect it, since you hate everything Squad shows. 

Untrue I liked thier 5m decoupler I like it when they show attention to detail, and good quality. This service bay is obviously not those things. I don't so much care about cylinder vs. cone as the only way to do gemini to scale is to implement a at least a few 1.5m parts and there are various reason squad may want to avoid that but what ever they make I expect it to be made well and I expect thier mods not to vilify people with standards.

[Raptor9]

14 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

This service bay is obviously not those things. I don't so much care about cylinder vs. cone as the only way to do gemini to scale is to implement a at least a few 1.5m parts and there are various reason squad may want to avoid that but what ever they make I expect it to be made well and I expect thier mods not to vilify people with standards.

[Emphasis in the above quote added by me] What you keep pointing out are your opinions, not standards.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but you would probably get a better reception of your opinions if you presented them in a more respectful manner, not a condescending, dismissive tone.  Giving someone the benefit of the doubt on a text-based forum, where the connotation can possibly be misconstrued in a manner other than intended, only goes so far.  If you want criticism to be taken constructively, than make it constructive.  When you berate others (in real-life or online), why would they listen to you?  They wouldn't, they'd ignore you.

11 hours ago, passinglurker said:

Cause if it is "finished" this seriously looks cheap and lazy if not sloppy. I sincerely hope this isn't actually reflective of what we can expect from "finished" work.

We should all have thick skins, but we should also treat others with more dignity and respect.  Adhering to the "Treat others the way you want to be treated" rule goes a long way towards achieving solutions versus generating dissension. [Personal anecdote: If I observed anybody in my department at work speaking that way to others on a regular basis, that person's continued employment would be in question.]  I'm not saying this to stomp on your toes or start an argument, I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation of why @Vanamonde replied the way he did.

[passinglurker]

4 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

[Emphasis in the above quote added by me] What you keep pointing out are your opinions, not standards.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but you would probably get a better reception of your opinions if you presented them in a more respectful manner, not a condescending, dismissive tone.  Giving someone the benefit of the doubt on a text-based forum, where the connotation can possibly be misconstrued in a manner other than intended, only goes so far.  If you want criticism to be taken constructively, than make it constructive.  When you berate others (in real-life or online), why would they listen to you?  They wouldn't, they'd ignore you.

Simple I make my case and vote with my wallet. If I'm right people will see as I do and do the same if I am wrong then that is just how the cookie crumbles. Once you start charging real money after a string of disastrous bugged releases and constant delays of core artistic and game-play polish that drain the cistern of good will dry then courtesy simply goes out the window until trust is re-earned. If they want my money without building any good will then I am under no obligation to mince words about what it takes to get my money.

I did try to be courteous and careful about what I said in the past though it didn't do a lick of good I still got directly dismissed for "cheap shots" that no one but bob saw so here we are.

8 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

We should all have thick skins, but we should also treat others with more dignity and respect.  Adhering to the "Treat others the way you want to be treated" rule goes a long way towards achieving solutions versus generating dissension. [Personal anecdote: If I observed anybody in my department at work speaking that way to others on a regular basis, that person's continued employment would be in question.]  I'm not saying this to stomp on your toes or start an argument, I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation of why @Vanamonde replied the way he did.

These spats with Vanamonde are weary. I've repeated solutions ad-nauseum and made reference to works that exist inside the core game to backup my arguments about what constitutes good quality within the confines of kerbal's hand-painted art style. I am not so opposed that I hate everything that is different from standards I've pointed out in the past provided those differences are not a regression, and are applied retroactively to all previous content. I just want quality and by extension consistency, and if I am opposed then its because I am concerned that something will make achieving these ends more difficult (for example if one were to release a large set of new parts that are made to regressed or even inconsistent artistic standards adding to the workload of everything that must be fixed if/when the "rocket revamp" comes). At this point after so long Vanamonde should be fully aware of my views yet he still persists in his miss-characterization of me  as some sort of unreasonable hate-troll out of some defensive reflex I can't fathom.

[TheKosmonaut]

Lands onto thread in a MOOSE and emerges in a steamy mist

Something I've always liked about KSP is that it brings a wonderfully diverse crowd of people with an equally diverse set of tastes and preferences. In a world filled with divisions, science can bring people together and bring people to kneel and marvel at the beauty of the universe around us. Just the same, KSP as a game also brings us together here on the forum because we like to fly rockets, whether they're faithful recreations of a SCORE-Atlas launch, or whacky SSTOs in the shape of a chicken or an electric guitar. 

People will always have different opinions and different expectations for what they want in this game. Myself, I mod KSP... I mod it till it breaks, then, I dial it back a bit till it stops crashing, then mod a little bit more. But I also recognize that people like the vanilla flavor of KSP (Heck, vanilla is my favorite flavor). These threads bring to the surface different expectations and an understandable disappointment when that expectation is not met, but remember that there are many varying views on what a person likes or dislikes in their game(s). 

It's best that we all move on, and cease personal attacks on others when they don't like something we like. Also, in stating our personal opinions, we need to be sure not to come across as insulting or demeaning to others, too. 

[The_Rocketeer]

Maybe Squad should forget about publishing news of the finished product and only ever tell us about the last version they won't use and why. Then the clamour of 'what the hell, these look so great, just release already' would allow the player community to really set the standard themselves.

No, this is a dreadful idea on many levels. I'll leave standards to the professionals.

[Just Jim]

I like the new parts... even if some are still WIP's

Edited October 16, 2017 by Just Jim
Removed reference to deleted content.

[Dman979]

When a moderator says to move on and stop the personal attacks, it means "move on and stop the personal attacks," not "ignore the moderator and continue on the same track."

Accordingly, some posts have been removed from the thread, and other posts have had parts removed.

Now, let's move on and stop the personal attacks. Ok?

[Just Jim]

13 hours ago, Dman979 said:

When a moderator says to move on and stop the personal attacks, it means "move on and stop the personal attacks," not "ignore the moderator and continue on the same track."

Accordingly, some posts have been removed from the thread, and other posts have had parts removed.

Now, let's move on and stop the personal attacks. Ok?

I'm sorry... 

[adsii1970]

After reading this thread while it was locked, the only thing that came to my mind was this...

14 hours ago, Dman979 said:

When a moderator says to move on and stop the personal attacks, it means "move on and stop the personal attacks," not "ignore the moderator and continue on the same track."

Accordingly, some posts have been removed from the thread, and other posts have had parts removed.

Now, let's move on and stop the personal attacks. Ok?

It seems that for just a moment that many folk on the thread were not themselves... maybe this can explain it.

 

And I am sorry about the off-topic post...

[TheKosmonaut]

Ok, back open. 

You can go about your business.

[nobodyhasthis2]

On 15/10/2017 at 9:20 AM, TheKosmonaut said:

 Myself, I mod KSP... I mod it till it breaks, then, I dial it back a bit till it stops crashing, then mod a little bit more.

Me too. I even do this on a indivdual mod level sometimes by tweaking the mods. One thing i have to say reading through this weekly update. Is the the modular mission builder is starting sound like it going to save me a ton of work. No more mission script rewrites everytime I want to play to a particular campaign set up. Yay ! Also the possible ability to put game challenges out into the community by creating them as missions. Will also be an awsome thing.

That alone sells the DLC for me. Could not care any less about added parts next to this. They are just an added bonus. Any in game tools that let us design new campaign flavours are worth it. On another note. If Squad ever did put out a user tweakable tech tree DLC. Where we could change part placement at will. That would also save a ton of time in modding the game.

 

[mystik]

I rarely visit these threads simply because they hardly ever present something interesting. I get that there is a lot of customization going on but the fact is that the game is still lacking in the graphics department.

I have no idea how they have not implemented critical features like the Stock Visual Enhancement to boost the graphics. You can keep the potato graphics for people with potato laptops that still insist to act like laptops are relevant gaming machines.

We are still missing smth like Kerbal engineer, a tool to show the full/empty mass of a ship, so that you don't have to [snip] have to fill and empty each tank to make your plane work, a window transfer planner, an alarm clock for important events, automated parachutes and many more.

Why aren't these in the game by now? I mean, if modders that have personal lives and stuff can do this, I would imagine that a team of dedicated programmers can also do this and even better? If not, here's an idea, just buy their mods and be done with it. It would probably be cheaper. And to those that will say "BUH MUH MODZ ARE FREENOOB", I have this to say: I can't play the game for up to 1 week after each release, simply because it lacks looks and functionality. How can someone play without Kerbal Engineer is beyond me? You can try, but even Scott Manley needs it to make anything that works.

I will buy this stupid add-on with the apollo theme, but can you please do something about these critical mods and integrate them in your game already?

Edited October 19, 2017 by Vanamonde

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

2 hours ago, mystik said:

I rarely visit these threads simply because they hardly ever present something interesting. I get that there is a lot of customization going on but the fact is that the game is still lacking in the graphics department.

I have no idea how they have not implemented critical features like the Stock Visual Enhancement to boost the graphics. You can keep the potato graphics for people with potato laptops that still insist to act like laptops are relevant gaming machines.

We are still missing smth like Kerbal engineer, a tool to show the full/empty mass of a ship, so that you don't have to autistically have to fill and empty each tank to make your plane work, a window transfer planner, an alarm clock for important events, automated parachutes and many more.

Why aren't these in the game by now? I mean, if modders that have personal lives and stuff can do this, I would imagine that a team of dedicated programmers can also do this and even better? If not, here's an idea, just buy their mods and be done with it. It would probably be cheaper. And to those that will say "BUH MUH MODZ ARE FREENOOB", I have this to say: I can't play the game for up to 1 week after each release, simply because it lacks looks and functionality. How can someone play without Kerbal Engineer is beyond me? You can try, but even Scott Manley needs it to make anything that works.

I will buy this stupid add-on with the apollo theme, but can you please do something about these critical mods and integrate them in your game already?

Laptops aren't legit gaming computers? All that matters is what's under the hood; not how big your car is. After a year and a half, my gaming laptop is still a monster because it was outrageously expensive. It's huge, and I never take it anywhere, but some of us don't wanna be married to a desk (and you'd be surprised what they can fit into a laptop in this, the digital age). You tend to get what you pay for with computers Beyond a certain point, laptops can't compare to desktops because they're out of room, but I would never reach that point because, though I'm crazy enough to spend $2,500 on a computer, I'm not crazy enough to spend $5,000. And even though it's now "old", it still plays everything on "Ultra" without a hiccup (though I probably can't have any more kids because of my now cooked crotch).

Which brings us to KSP. A game that is notoriously tough on processors because of all the physics calculations, and the fact that you can only use a single core. It's all about part-count. If you favor large vessels, like I do, you're gonna need some serious computing power. Graphics enhancements need computing power as well; not just your GPU. I regularly launch vessels with over 1,000 parts (my Jool-5 had over 1,900), and it works just fine. However, I created a separate install for graphics enhancements to see how good the game could look. I added SVE, EVE, SVT, DOE, Scatterer, Planetshine, Kopernicus, Real Plume, and Engine Lighting. If you know this game, you can already guess what happened. It looked absolutely fantastic, and fps dropped to about 4. I consider that unplayable, but it looks great if I want a pretty screenshot or video. Different people care about different things. Some care how great it can look, some care about having high part-counts with zero lag. We all play differently.

Which brings us to mods. Differing gaming styles is where they shine. This game is already tough on processors; if graphics enhancements were stock, people would complain that they couldn't play the game without turning everything off. And not everyone can afford a high-end gaming rig. I doubt Squad only wants to target the elite. A game needs to be playable for as many people as possible. Individualization is done through mods. If you want automated parachutes (has that become a legitimate concern?), then mods can provide it for you. And if you play enough that you can't go a week without the game while you wait for your mods to update (I'm with you there: a day without KSP is a dark day indeed), then instead of asking for these things to be stock, why not make a donation to the people who actually create and maintain these mods? Not only would you be showing your appreciation, but perhaps the mod makers will be more motivated to update their mods quicker at the next update.

And one last thing: do you know the Delta V and TWR of my Jool 5? Neither do I. Just like I don't know the numbers for any rocket I've ever built, because I don't use mods (and I already spend enough time on KSP that I'm not gonna learn to do the calculations). I've only seen a couple of Scott Manley videos, but I'm sure he can play without KER. I'm sure it saves time and can help you make your rockets more efficient, but it's not necessary. Knowledge gained through experience (and a bit of guesswork) is all you need. I actually enjoy a bit of mystery and adventure in each rocket. And really, we're sending rockets to other planets. Shouldn't there be some danger involved? I never know until I get there if I cut a certain stage a little too close, or my TWR is a little too low (testing landers is always a good idea). It's the way I've always played, and I love it. There are probably plenty of others who do as well.

There's always one thing we can all agree on, because although we all play differently, we all love this game. The money for the "stupid" expansion has been burning a whole in my account for months. I'll be buying the moment it's available. As I would for any new KSP content. I guess even automated parachutes.

[passinglurker]

I don't think you can say kerbal should be flexible and accessible to all play styles and then immediately turn around and dismiss the play styles that would like some improvements in the quality of life and player information department.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

32 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

I don't think you can say kerbal should be flexible and accessible to all play styles and then immediately turn around and dismiss the play styles that would like some improvements in the quality of life and player information department.

I didn't dismiss them. I said they're covered by mods (something I understand you're a big fan of). I play stock because I like it. Mods are not stock and vice versa.

Though I guess I was a bit dismissive of automated parachutes because, well, it sounds a bit superfluous. Apologies though, if you were offended.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch

[passinglurker]

6 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

I didn't dismiss them. I said they're covered by mods (something I understand you're a big fan of). I play stock because I like it. Mods are not stock and vice versa.

Though I guess I was a bit dismissive of automated parachutes because, well, it sounds a bit superfluous. Apologies though, if you were offended.

Not so much offended as just opposed to the notion that mods should be used as a crutch. Something as generally used and accepted as player information tools should be made stock in some form. Whereas something specialized like a star wars parts pack should not.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

2 hours ago, passinglurker said:

Not so much offended as just opposed to the notion that mods should be used as a crutch. Something as generally used and accepted as player information tools should be made stock in some form. Whereas something specialized like a star wars parts pack should not.

I getcha. Believe me, every time I see a screenshot with the KER window open I think how much I would love to have all that info. It's not a part of the stock game though, so I don't do it. However, if it were a part of the stock game, I would gladly indulge.

And though my opinion on the subject hardly matters, I'd like to be clear that I'm not against mods (except maybe Mechjeb ). I just didn't like hearing that you need a desktop and KER to play the game, because it's obviously not true.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch