Jump to content

50 km long cave discovered on moon


Azimech

Recommended Posts

I had always assumed that a crater at the southern pole of the Moon would be ideal for a base, it is literally a place "where the Sun don't shine".  I had assumed that this would block most of the radiation (it would, of course, block the deadly burst radiation from a solar flare: probably the most difficult shielding for human exploration), but I've heard elsewhere on this forum that galactic radiation is equally a problem and would likely require something like this cave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More info on the AGU website:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2009GL040635/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2017GL074998/full

http://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/hub/article/10.1002/2017GL074998/editor-highlight/

tl:dr: Combined data from JAXA Selene and NASA Grrail missions could be a hint to the presence of intact lavatubes on the moon.

Space 1999 2017 :-)

Edited by Green Baron
Link to comment
Share on other sites

These caves have been known for a while to exist, we have discovered about 200 skylights so far. What's new and exciting about this is that we actually have measured one of these caves and it's as big as we predicted. The possibilities are really intriguing.

I had a lot of fun climbing down a small lava tube in Idaho before eclipse day, but doing so in a similar lunar cave would be incredibly dangerous - the rocks are unstable and sharp. I would carry an extra roll of Kapton tape going down there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Azimech said:

Now imagine real caves in KSP.

How angry you are...

6 hours ago, Azimech said:

If this is real, I think the next trip to the moon should go there.

Between the ideal examples of frustration this is Elite Platinum Standard Plus.
Nobody will risk sending there people,
Underground radio contact is probably impossible, which means no remote control.
50 km is too much for wires from an external antenna.
So, we should probably wait a century more until an AI-guided nuclear-powered underground rocket copter will fly inside and make photos.

Edited by kerbiloid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

How angry you are...

Between the ideal examples of frustration this is Elite Platinum Standard Plus.
Nobody will risk sending there people,
Underground radio contact is probably impossible, which means no remote control.
50 km is too much for wires from an external antenna.
So, we should probably wait a century more until an AI-guided nuclear-powered underground rocket copter will fly inside and make photos.

Angry...  Sorry, missing the cultural reference here.

We don't need wires for remote control underground. Just some WiFi repeaters ;-) 

Besides, the Mars rovers are working semi-independent as well. So we can't use solar panels and RTG's are unwanted. Then maybe it's time for fuel cells or the revamped piston engine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually "measured" is an optimistic interpretation. Ground radar isn't as exact as weather radar, even if used on earth and on direct contact with the soil regolith.

Let's say it's a strong evidence, combined with the gravitation anomalies, to extensive underground caves, that's what the papr states.

 

A little spray concrete for sealing, curtains, candles and a fireplace and we are ready to return to the cave.

Wait.

Did "we" really live in caves in the past ?

 

Just trying to be funny.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

_81745026_81745025.jpg

:o 

11 hours ago, Azimech said:

JAXA used SELENE to discover a 100 m wide, 50 km long lava tunnel. If this is real, I think the next trip to the moon should go there.

AS20171018004174_comm.jpg

 

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201710180045.html

 

Now imagine real caves in KSP.

You know what would be cooler? Landing a probe INSIDE the Lava tube.

SpaceX lands on barges. Why not land inside a cave?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Azimech said:

...RTG's are unwanted.. ....

The heck with that!! I want a power source that can last 10+ years, and If I get cold I'll hug it.

RTG's FTW!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Azimech said:

JAXA used SELENE to discover a 100 m wide, 50 km long lava tunnel. If this is real, I think the next trip to the moon should go there.

AS20171018004174_comm.jpg

 

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201710180045.html

 

Now imagine real caves in KSP.

 

I think it's the ruins of the stardrive section of a Galaxy-class starship:

IY8a0QX.jpg

It must have passed through a subspace anomaly that reversed the tachyon flow in order to crash into the Moon centuries in the past.  :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wonder what the easiest way to seal such a cave would be?

Guys at NM Tech we're messing around with explosively compressing regolith simulant (that's how they roll down there, it's all about the explosives, lol), then they melted more simulant and sprayed it.

Wonder what the power requirements would be to spray melted soil on the inside of the lava tube?

 

(really, autocorrect changed "seal" to "deal?")

Edited by tater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other than exploration for its own sake, the only reason to send people to the Moon would likely be if it were a valuable source of propellants or other raw materials for use in orbit. This means that unless a lava tube is someplace useful for that purpose, it's basically just someplace cool that don't need to be used for anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Green Baron said:

A little spray concrete for sealing, curtains, candles and a fireplace and we are ready to return to the cave.

That actually raises an interesting question: what could we use on the Moon to make raw building materials? As far as I know, concrete is made from limestone, which is a sedimentary rock made up of fossilized corals, mollusks etc. We won't find any limestone on the Moon, so no concrete. And no oil, so no plastics either. (I am assuming that bringing large quantities of those materials up from Earth will be too expensive.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Azimech said:

JAXA used SELENE to discover a 100 m wide, 50 km long lava tunnel. If this is real, I think the next trip to the moon should go there.

AS20171018004174_comm.jpg

 

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201710180045.html

 

Now imagine real caves in KSP.

Yes, yet another bit of scenary for Jeb to fall though and get stuck in.or go poof.

38 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Meanwhile, folks will be asking why travel 300,000km if you can sit in caves on earth just as easily... 

Not me, but I’m sure ignoranti and hoaxers will be voicing that question.

There are martians hiding inside the caves waiting to ambush venutian women. Mars needs women!!!!!!

It goes without saying that the nation that plants a flag up on these caves will have a advantage in colonization of the moon.

At least on problem just disappeared, what to do about space radiation.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, tater said:

Other than exploration for its own sake, the only reason to send people to the Moon would likely be if it were a valuable source of propellants or other raw materials for use in orbit. This means that unless a lava tube is someplace useful for that purpose, it's basically just someplace cool that don't need to be used for anything.

It might contain ice as its shielded from heat, however you would probably prefer one with an larger opening making it easier for vapor to enter and then freeze over billions of years. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Azimech said:

Angry...  Sorry, missing the cultural reference here.

Sorry, I mean that underground caves are unattainable dream in KSP for years...

9 hours ago, Azimech said:

Besides, the Mars rovers are working semi-independent as well.

On a plain open surface, with testing of their movements on their clone in space center sandbox.
While the underground pipes would be pure speleology. Not sure how many repeaters should be along such twisting and cluttered passage 50 km long.

Spoiler

2549500511_bafd4e55c2_b.jpgshark_tooth_stalactites_inside_lava_tube

 

3 hours ago, tater said:

Wonder what the easiest way to deal such a cave would be?

Get several tens kilometers aside to a safe distance from it, build aluminium habitats in a crater or an excavation and cover them with 1-2 m of raw regolith to protect against radiation and temperature fluctuations.
Use several underground nukes to make reinforced reservoirs for fluids.
Sell tickets to space tourists visiting the volcanic tube aside.

Not sure, btw, why do they imagine one big cavern, not a porous system of narrow underground tunnels and caverns.
Anyway, it would be too unstable to build something inside, and 100 m of ground over head adds nothing to protection compared to 1-2 m ground coat.

Also, unlikely just filling that tube with air would work, the air would dissipate through numerous leaks. So, anyway pressurized hulls would be required.

Edited by kerbiloid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, PakledHostage said:

That actually raises an interesting question: what could we use on the Moon to make raw building materials? As far as I know, concrete is made from limestone, which is a sedimentary rock made up of fossilized corals, mollusks etc. We won't find any limestone on the Moon, so no concrete. And no oil, so no plastics either. (I am assuming that bringing large quantities of those materials up from Earth will be too expensive.)

True, we can't. And transporting such stuff to the moon is not even scifi.

Even on earth concrete plants for large constructions are built on site and limestone mines nearby if possible because transporting that stuff in bulk is just too tedious. Very bad if the stuff dries up inside the container ;-)

Edited by Green Baron
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...