How to land a plane on the KSC runway?

[TheFlyingKerman]

I have built my first aircraft that looks flyable.

I can fly it off from the runway, make course changes, and fly straight and level at over 900m/s. If there is a large piece of flat land, I can usually land it, flying at about 80m/s and sinking down a few meters per second. However I have no idea how can I land it back to the KSC runway. I have tried placing a few flags along the runway to help aligning, however the plane does not seem to do small turns well at low speed, and I am always about 100m off.

I have provided my craft file. It is a problem with my design or my flying technique is wrong?

https://kerbalx.com/download/craft/35656

 

 

[bewing]

1 hour ago, TheFlyingKerman said:

I have built my first aircraft that looks flyable.

Landing on the runway is really tricky! You build your very first flyable plane and now as the very next thing you want to land it on the runway??!? Sheesh. Kids these days.

Just kidding! Welcome to the forums.

 

Your flying technique is not wrong, per se. But you need another couple hundred hours of time flying and designing new planes before you will have enough practice that it becomes easier. Note that I did not say "easy". Landing on the runway is one of the few things in KSP that never ever quite becomes easy -- unless your planes are designed to be very maneuverable, and to fly at very low speeds. In general it is quite easy to come in a little too fast from a very long mission, and to need 4km of flat ground to land. Or even a lot more.

Of course, it doesn't help that your plane can't fly slow (or it will lose too much lift), and it doesn't look very maneuverable.

So, to begin practicing landing on the runway, you need a slow, maneuverable plane. Go into sandbox mode, and grab the Aeris 3A.  Practice landing on the runway with that, until you can do it 99% of the time. Then go back to yours.

Note that the whole KSC peninsula is a wonderful, very large, mostly flat grass runway going in any direction you like. All you get for landing on the runway is a few style points, and no taxiing at the end to get a 100% funds payback on the runway in career mode. So if you decide you don't like the extra effort of runway landings -- they are completely optional.

 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

In real life when approaching a runway you set up to make a large rectangle "pattern" around it, reducing speed and altitude at each 'corner" until the last one brings you in to your final approach onto the runway itself. So at the first corner you'd go 75% power, then 50%, then 25%, then your turning in for final and you'll want to continue to drop the power as you prepare to actually land. You want to drop a portion of your altitude at each corner too, but that really depends on how high you were flying to start with. As a rough guide try to lose 1/4 of your height at each corner, until you are at a suitable height for final approach on the final corner.

A plane has 3 sets of control surfaces, the tail elevators (Pitch), the vertical tail stabilizer (Yaw), and the ailerons on the ends of the wings (Roll) make sure your plane has all 3 of these (I only see 2) and manually assign each axis of movement to there appropriate surfaces. Then most planes have flaps which help you takeoff/land. These are generally at the root of the wing, add these to your plane and deploy them down when landing, it will slow you and produce a small amount of extra lift. I think you'll find that with proper control surfaces set up you won't have any trouble lining up for the runway.

Once on final, you want to "fly the runway" at first, get down low and start reducing engine power further, until you are flying along just over top of the runway, then slowly and carefully continue to reduce engine power and descend, keeping your nose and your prograde marker on or just above the white horizon line as you do so. You should be very close to stall speed as your wheels touch down, then hit the brakes and wait for the plane to come to a stop. Best of luck!

[FancyMouse]

From my experience, the most important two things are: keep vertical speed (i.e. sink rate) low at touch down (-5m/s at most, as my own guideline), and be prepared for TOGA whenever something doesn't feel right. Even if I've flied hundreds of flights now, I sometimes just fly carelessly and when I neglected any of the above, my crash rate significantly increases.

[Freds]

Landing on runway require some practice, especially because KSP don't have an ILS or another way to guide you along the path, so, its easy to miss the runway. Try to land with less than 6m/s of vertical speed, and with the slowest horizontal speed you can maintain. Touch the back landing gear first. When it touches, keep pressed the down key to try to keep the nose up, until the front landing gear touches the runway. Then press break to stop the aircraft.

I play with lot of mods, and some of them helps a lot when landing, for instance, "NavUtilities continued" (https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/162967-130-navutilities-continued-ft-hsi-instrument-landing-system-v070-2017-jul-06/) can help you to keep you aligned with the runway, "AtmosphereAutopilot" (https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/124417-122-131-atmosphereautopilot-1510-looking-for-maintainer/) help you to keep the plane at a course and speed, and is very very useful for any planes, and, of course, kerbal engineer mod, to show all the data about you current status (vertical and horizontal speed, mach, acceleration, etc).

One design tip: If you plane can't fly at slow speed ( < 150m/s) or is too heavy to safety land without running out of  runway, install some parachutes in his tail, preferenciable below the center of mass: So, when you touch the runway, deploy the parachutes to decelerate and force the nose down. Almost all my heavy spaceplanes can land safetly in the runway with more than 100T cargo using this tecnique.
 

[Scarecrow]

I downloaded your craft and managed to land on the runway with no problem, but I did make a few changes before taking it out for a spin.

I changed the function of the wing elevons so that they worked for roll only.  Similarly with the tailplane, which was changed to work in pitch only, and I also increased the throw to 110 from 85.

I removed the deployment of the tailplanes from action group 2, and changed the direction of the wing elevons so that they went down instead of up on deployment.

I adjusted the landing gear, dropping the nose gear slightly and raising the main gear slightly, so that the craft wasn't quite so nose down when sitting on the runway.  The final change I made was to fill the fuel tanks up, but that's not really imnportant if you want to fly around with less fuel on board.

 

I uploaded the tweaked craft to Dropbox if you want to download it to try.  https://www.dropbox.com/s/vhd921gy7a1grea/LKA-1CII.craft?dl=0

Dropping the flaps helps to slow down when coming in for a landing, and the craft is pretty controllable so shouldn't be a problem to line up with the runway.

[Vanamonde]

Don't feel bad. Oddly enough, landing on the runway is one of the hardest feats in KSP. It's much more difficult than landing on most of the other planets, and even harder than coming back from most of them. 

[rudi1291]

Landing on the runway is one of the problems where you cant just throw moar boosters at, guess that what makes it so hard to do. Took me a long time to do...

Edited October 27, 2017 by rudi1291

[Van Disaster]

First, thing, land from the sea end. Second thing, until you get the hang of it, turn onto your final approach using the island with the other runway as the turn marker so you get plenty of time to settle the plane ( I still do it that way anyway for spaceplanes ). Don't do this too high, 2000m at most. Get lined up - note that the runway is almost exactly aligned along the equator so your heading will be 270 if you're lined up correctly - then start adjusting your speed until you're comfortably flying slowly but stable, and then start reducing height keeping at the same speed. Now you need to judge if you're going to land short of the runway or most of the way down it - keep an eye on your altitude & remember the runway is ~70m above sea level -  and that is just practice ( or you can get an ILS mod with a glideslope ). Above all, *don't rush it*.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Van Disaster

[AeroGav]

First thing,  there is no reason to actually land on the runway except for style points.

Second, that airplane has a really high stalling speed - in stock aero,  you don't have to put up with anything over 40 m/s unless you want to - even if you're building a spaceplane.

Third,  making last minute heading corrections and over corrections  is an instinctive reaction as the runway looms, but what you need to keep in mind is that the runway is aligned on a heading of 90 degrees if approaching from the mountains or 270 if you're coming in from the sea.        

So, if you're coming in from the direction of the mountains, any time your airplane has a heading less than 090 degrees, it will slowly continue to drift to the left of the runway even if its wings are level and it is not turning.    Any time your heading is >090 degrees you will slowly drift right.

So the bad way to line up is

a) notice you're off to the right of the runway

b) point the nose at the threshold, so that your plane is now flying a heading of 85 degrees

c) as you pass the threshold the plane starts drifting further and further left of the runway, which is aligned with 090

d) turn hard to the right to get back on centreline, so you're now headed 095 degrees

e) repeat ad naseum

what you should do is -

a) notice you're off to the right of the runway

b) turn very slightly to the left till your heading is 088 or so, then level the wings

c) the plane will drift back towards the runway's extended centreline as you get closer to it, just before you think you're lined up, gently turn back onto a heading of 090

as you get closer, make further corrections if needed

 

[JK_Kerbineer]

If your having trouble turning the plane, what I do is press Q or E, to rotate the plane and then S.

[Delay]

I'd start with a very long descend, so that you have enough time to align yourself.

Make sure that the heading on the navball is either 90° or 270°, as those are the directions of the runway. If you lower your gear, the front centered landing gear should nicely cover up the runway. Otherwise, make sure that it is right in between the gears. Once you have that, stop turning for a bit and watch what happens to the alignment. Only do corrections if necessary, and no last second corrections, go around instead. The closer you are to the runway, the less correction you should need. This way you should not only land on the runway, but also do consistent centerline landings.

If you can't do it on your first attempt, that's fine. Take off again (or go around) and try approaching from the other side.

[Spricigo]

Lots of good advice on the proper way to land in the runaway with style.

In any case I'd like to also point out the quick&dirty way:

1.Fly over the runaway not too fast.

2.Open parachutes.

You get no style points. But, if what you are concerned is recovering rate, it is all you need.

[TheFlyingKerman]

Lots of good replies thanks.

I tried @Scarecrow 's tweaks and the plane handles much better at low speed. I can land a little below 60m/s. I also gave the Aeris 3A a few test flights. It is even better. I think my design can be improved?

@JK_Kengineer My problem is the opposite. The plane is too sensitive and erratic. If the level is a little off the progade vector drifts to one side. It is hard to align because the craft refuses to fly straight at where the nose is pointing.

 

 

[Spricigo]

1 hour ago, TheFlyingKerman said:

I think my design can be improved?

It can. And there's a lot of good people to help with this already in this thread.

You may also take advantage of some tutorials. (But b careful with old ones referring to things that changed in the game)

 

[bewing]

7 hours ago, TheFlyingKerman said:

I think my design can be improved?

Heh. Designs can pretty much always be improved. Especially when it comes to airplanes. Players sometimes spend weeks polishing a single design.

 

[Zeiss Ikon]

9 hours ago, bewing said:

Heh. Designs can pretty much always be improved. Especially when it comes to airplanes. Players sometimes spend weeks polishing a single design.

 

And real world designers haven't found the one perfect design in more than a century.

Here's another perspective: I've got about a hundred hours of actual stick time flying radio control airplanes -- started with a sailplane, then moved to power, eventually flying a fully aerobatic model with full three-axis control (no flaps, though), and throttle.  Even after only an hour or so with the sailplane I could land very close to where I wanted to be, even to the point of being able to catch the model in my hand.

It's all I can do to make a simple turn in KSP with a design that ought to glide well.  It's largely because of the controls.  Instead of nice, smooth, proportional analog sticks, I have six buttons (eight if you count throttle).  The inputs I can make are maximum-rate or nothing.  I can't hold just a little stick to keep the nose up if the craft is a little nose heavy; I can't readily combine elevator and rudder to make a coordinated turn after banking.  The only real analog control I have is throttle.  Flying something that handles like an airplane is at least ten times harder with these controls than it would be with a set of R/C joysticks.

KSP controls work nicely for flying in space, pretty well for launching a rocket, a bit less well (IMO) for controlling a Kerbal on EVA -- and very poorly for flying an airplane. Even so, with enough practice, people do learn to fly airplanes (and reentry gliders, etc.) smoothly -- but it's hard to fly an airplane with controls set up for RCS/reaction wheel maneuvering.  And landing has always been, and always will be the hardest part of flying an airplane.

[bewing]

Yup. Total agreement. It's hard with the keyboard. You need to perfect the art of tapping the control keys, in order to make small adjustments. If you ever hold a control key down, your plane will RUD and crash and explode and all your kerbals will die horribly and their ghosts will haunt you forever.

Many players will try to convince you that flying airplanes is not what KSP is about, so you should never do it. Or, as I said, you can perfect tapping, and not expect good aerobatic response. Or you can get a airplane-optimized contoller with joysticks, and (from my limited experience with them) that works better.

But I enjoy building and flying silly airplanes, and just go for the tapping method myself.

And if you want to land a KSP airplane in your hand, then you need to get your stall speed down below 30 m/s, so you need at least twice as much wing as you have in your above design.

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by bewing

[Geonovast]

I haven't done much, but I can vouch for flying planes with a joystick is way, waaaay better than a keyboard.  I even tricked a real pilot in his mid 50s who's never touched video games to fly around in KSP when I got my joystick.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

If anyone is experiencing difficulty with keyboard controls I recommend going into the main menu control options and heavily decreasing the input sensitivity of the 3 control axis.

Or, decrease the max authority of the actual control surfaces themselves via enabling advanced tweakables. The keyboard flying in KSP really isn't that bad, the stock settings are what's bad. You need to tweak and adjust things until you are comfortable with them.

I fly a Cessna with a buddy of mine IRL from time to time, and I say to you with all confidence that I could fly it with a keyboard if I had to. As my flying buddy (who is a mason by trade) would say; "A good craftsman doesn't blame his tools."

Edited October 30, 2017 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Urses]

My way around to allign stright with runway use the Kerbnet ability to set waypoints. I use a rover to set one east and west waypoint precisely in the mid and as i land i see the both from 100 km away and can lineup from there for landing at higher speeds anf close up i only have only fine yawn adjastions to bring me safe down.

Funny Kabooms 

Urses

Hope  here is something helpful.

[AeroGav]

On 29/10/2017 at 4:41 AM, TheFlyingKerman said:

I think my design can be improved?

My immediate impression,   on looking at it, is that this airplane has too much fuel tank, too much engine, and not enough wing to be a utility airplane.

Too much engine -  every air breathing engine has a top speed beyond which it's thrust falls off rapidly.    The Panther especially so - unless you're making a pod racer or some kind of military craft there is no reason to go above a certain TWR .  For a craft that size one engine would be fine - two engines means extra weight, and therefore higher landing speed for a given amount of wing.

Too much fuel - You'll die of boredom before you can use all that fuel in atmospheric flight.  Again, the extra weight raises landing speed.    These days, I put pretty much all my fuel in wet wings and strakes,  with only a small fuselage trim tank.    That includes my liquid fuel only spaceplanes !

 

Not enough wing - most drag in KSP comes from fuselage parts, even skinny mk1 ones.   So feel free to add more wing area.   In fact for a spaceplane, you'd want more wing area than that for a craft of that weight,  because it'd let you fly at lower angle of attack and higher altitude at any given speed, reducing drag  and heat.

One last thing - I prefer inline cockpits.   For space planes, they aren't anywhere near as prone to overheating.   For utility aircraft,  pilot survivability improves in  a landing accident, if there is an air intake, service bay, and fuel tank acting as crumple zone for the cockpit.

I quickly put together a single engine utility plane, stall speed a bit above 32 m/s   

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cx87afn3bd54dv8/babelfish.craft?dl=0

same parts rearranged to make a canard

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qbafjvkerz3f9as/fluke.craft?dl=0

Edited October 30, 2017 by AeroGav