The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[MinimalMinmus]

 [Link removed]

Here's my try. I hope using KER still counts (it doesn't really add anything except 2 parts that are basically useless except the HUD).

 

Edit: everyone seems to agree it doesn't so...

Edited January 25, 2018 by MinimalMinmus

[Mr. Peabody]

19 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

https://imgur.com/a/IB7HK

Here's my try. I hope using KER still counts (it doesn't really add anything except 2 parts that are basically useless except the HUD).

I'll let you pass on KER because it does not significantly alter gameplay and you used all stock parts. Any mod that significantly alters gameplay, for example Mechjeb, is not allowed. Congratulations on completing Vanadium, you may claim your badge.

[dvader]

Here's my entry to the Normal challenge. It should be easy since I have about 800 hours of game time and those first missions of building a simple flea rocket is... wait... Who's screaming like that? PARACHUTE, JEBEDIAH, PARA...

Album https://imgur.com/a/8vcNT will appear when post is submitted

 

I have already started hard and the plan is to basically do the same thing but with some extra antennas. That is:

Kerbin: Some local stuff (local biomes, low/high atmo) but low and high space as soon as possible.

Mun: Unmanned low and high space return missions measuring temp, pressure, materials and goo

Minmus: Unmanned low and high space return missions measuring temp, pressure, materials and goo. Then tiny landing craft and radio back temp+pressure until enough science is retrieved.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by dvader
EDIT: Fixed the link

[Mr. Peabody]

@dvader, your imgur album is not appearing. Please fix this problem so I can verify your submission. 

Sounds like you have a great mission plan for hard mode. 

[dvader]

Sorry about that. I'm new here Hope I fixed it now.

Hard has shown some annoying issues. I've lost a couple of drone flights due to lost radio connection in the atmosphere. Added some com sats but without KER (to show orbital period) and maneuver nodes the result is really... poor.  I also screwed up the tech tree and didn't get the OKTO in time and had to do manned Mun flyby (the Stayputnik is really awful). Also, didn't account for the 40% reduction in science so I'm currently a very short on science and will probably do Minmus surface return missions to avoid an awful lot of biome hunting.

 

[Mr. Peabody]

8 hours ago, dvader said:

Sorry about that. I'm new here Hope I fixed it now.

Hard has shown some annoying issues. I've lost a couple of drone flights due to lost radio connection in the atmosphere. Added some com sats but without KER (to show orbital period) and maneuver nodes the result is really... poor.  I also screwed up the tech tree and didn't get the OKTO in time and had to do manned Mun flyby (the Stayputnik is really awful). Also, didn't account for the 40% reduction in science so I'm currently a very short on science and will probably do Minmus surface return missions to avoid an awful lot of biome hunting.

 

Congratulations on completing normal mode. You may claim your badge.  Manned munar flyby isn't that bad. In fact I have just finished my manned flyby with a large amount of science equipment.

[dvader]

Thanks for the badge! I'll wear it proudly.

Here's my Hard Caveman entry.

The most challenging/annoying things were the limited Comnet coverage when landing and the inability to set up anything but a probabilistic comnet. I also spent much more time than I care to admit trying to design a minmus surface return vehicle with two goos and material bays. The naive versions with the fuel tanks at the bottom just didn't fly... Came up with an ugly but really reliable craft in the end.

https://imgur.com/a/EcLmo

 

 

[dvader]

Before starting the next project, I did something not very cave man like and set up a spread sheet to plan the science missions. I'm assuming the Hard+ challenges are Hard with all options at "worst" with only science return at 30%, 20% and 10%. I'm also assuming I have access to Crew Report, Temperature, Pressure, Materials and Goo. Five experiments in all plus some extra science for return vehicles (I assume all scale by the science factor).

If I understand things correctly, the Nanocrystalline Diamond is near impossible. Even if you include surface missions to 17 kerbin biomes, 17 mun biomes and 9 minmus biomes you only get 790 science. That leaves either 400 science from contracts or something like surface  missions to all biomes on Ike (which I'm not sure if it is doable).

Diamond is doable if you visit all biomes on minmus and 11 on the mun (unmanned).

Corundum requires all biomes on minmus and 2 on the mun (unmanned).

Just finding all biomes on Minmus without a map would be very difficult. The mun, near impossible. I know there are biome maps on the internet but it is not really in the spirit of the challenge to use such sofisticated external technologies.

I know it may be possible to launch with Kerbals on ladders which could make it possible to take surface samples, but is that really in the spirit of the challenge? It is truly cave man like but a bit unrealistic. Without it, nanocrystal seems impossible (or requiring a few hundred hours of gameplay).

I'll see if I can reach Ike from my Cave man hard save but maybe Nanocrystal is a bit too much? (I haven't read through the earlier threads so I guess someone might have brought this up already)

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Peabody]

@dvader, great job completing hard difficulty level. Go ahead and claim your badge from the badge section in the main topic. Unga Bunga! 

On 1/18/2018 at 7:28 AM, dvader said:

Before starting the next project, I did something not very cave man like and set up a spread sheet to plan the science missions. I'm assuming the Hard+ challenges are Hard with all options at "worst" with only science return at 30%, 20% and 10%. I'm also assuming I have access to Crew Report, Temperature, Pressure, Materials and Goo. Five experiments in all plus some extra science for return vehicles (I assume all scale by the science factor).

If I understand things correctly, the Nanocrystalline Diamond is near impossible. Even if you include surface missions to 17 kerbin biomes, 17 mun biomes and 9 minmus biomes you only get 790 science. That leaves either 400 science from contracts or something like surface  missions to all biomes on Ike (which I'm not sure if it is doable).

Diamond is doable if you visit all biomes on minmus and 11 on the mun (unmanned).

Corundum requires all biomes on minmus and 2 on the mun (unmanned).

Just finding all biomes on Minmus without a map would be very difficult. The mun, near impossible. I know there are biome maps on the internet but it is not really in the spirit of the challenge to use such sofisticated external technologies.

I know it may be possible to launch with Kerbals on ladders which could make it possible to take surface samples, but is that really in the spirit of the challenge? It is truly cave man like but a bit unrealistic. Without it, nanocrystal seems impossible (or requiring a few hundred hours of gameplay).

I'll see if I can reach Ike from my Cave man hard save but maybe Nanocrystal is a bit too much? (I haven't read through the earlier threads so I guess someone might have brought this up already)

Extra-planetary missions are possible in Caveman using lawn-assembly or orbital assembly to build a rocket over the weight and part count limit. I'm not sure about Ike, but Gilly is definitely a possible science location with a large enough rocket and reasonably good pilot skills. Visiting planets or moons outside of Kerbin's SOI will earn you the order of the trilobite badge, as will completing any of the +hard "extreme" difficulty levels. As for launching with kerbals on ladders, being "realistic" is not a priority in this challenge as long as no rules are violated. If you can build a craft to keep a kerbal on a ladder therefore making EVA reports possible, go for it. Surface samples cannot be taken until the astronaut complex is upgraded.

Edited January 19, 2018 by The Dunatian

[dvader]

I've decided to try a Corundum playthrough and here's a first progress report.

My current attempt is my fourth. The first ended before the first mission (not enough funds to launch) and the second and third ended with failures due to small or accidental changes to otherwise working designs, resulting in botched missions and lack of funds.

The main lesson I've learnt so far is: Cash is king. It is even more important than science.

Comparing launch cost to contract rewards is essential. Launches must return a net positive amount. You can't afford too many second chances so no in-game testing of new designs. I use a sandbox for testing and then recreate the working designs in-game (technically no copying of craft files). Also, calculating science return is essential since you can't really afford to send a rocket to the same place twice.

So far, I've reached Mun orbit and things "may" get easier after that. I hope there will be more lucrative or repeatable contracts (Return science from Mun for example) but I don't know yet. I actually doubt I will finish, either out of boredom or lack of funds. But so far, it is fun to operate with really small margins. It requires some new solutions and planning.

https://imgur.com/a/AhzKO

I have so far gathered about 95/1180 science. To be continued...

Edited January 22, 2018 by dvader

[Martian Emigrant]

Hey all.

 

I am finally working at this classic challenge.

Doing it Normal mode.

This is the last picture I have of my "Tree":

 

I actually purchased one more node since.

So far it's run of the mill. A lot of atmospheric surveys. Testing equipment at the launch pad or splashed. Slow going. Getting there.

I decided to "Do" something worthy of the Caveman Title. https://imgur.com/a/ADOBi

Bob volunteered to get an EVA Report from Space. (I suspect Jeb got him drunk first)
 

Spoiler

 

This is Bob getting inside a Structural Fuselage for the ride up.

Gene:

Hey Jeb how is Bob doing?

Jeb:

He is doing fine.

 

Earlier simulations Bob couldn't get out on is own. Placing a coupler at the bottom worked great. Opening the bottom and pushing the ship away a bit.

 

RCSsing back to the ship was "Weird". Though it's very high, in the atmosphere, I think there was drag acting on Bob.

Maybe Bob was Luckier than Good.

 

 

 

That was a lot of work for 8 science points.

 

ME

Edited January 24, 2018 by Martian Emigrant

[IncongruousGoat]

Wait a minute. Since when is KER allowed? By the rules of the old Caveman challenge, all (and that means ALL) information mods are prohibited on the grounds that they make the challenge too easy/provide information the challenge is intended to deprive you of.

[Martian Emigrant]

Just now, IncongruousGoat said:

Wait a minute. Since when is KER allowed? By the rules of the old Caveman challenge, all (and that means ALL) information mods are prohibited on the grounds that they make the challenge too easy/provide information the challenge is intended to deprive you of.

MecJeb is installed but not used.

 

ME

[IncongruousGoat]

1 minute ago, Martian Emigrant said:

MecJeb is installed but not used.

 

ME

I was actually referring to @MinimalMinmus's entry, which definitely used KER for information purposes. Bit late, I know, but I don't look at this thread very often.

Edited January 24, 2018 by IncongruousGoat

[Martian Emigrant]

1 minute ago, IncongruousGoat said:

I was actually referring to @MinimalMinmus's entry, which definitely used KER for information purposes. Bit late, I know, but I don't look at this thread very often.

I thought I was being kicked out for a minute there.

.

.

.

So I am good then?

.

.

.

Right?

 

Should finish in the next few days.

 

ME

[MinimalMinmus]

2 minutes ago, IncongruousGoat said:

I was actually referring to @MinimalMinmus's entry, which definitely used KER for information purposes. Bit late, I know, but I don't look at this thread very often.

I figured out, it doesn't help that much, except maybe for the biomes but then it's mainly a convenience, you just get better readings, and besides it consumes a oh-so-precious part slot, so I'd say it's fairly balanced.

[IncongruousGoat]

Just now, MinimalMinmus said:

I figured out, it doesn't help that much, except maybe for the biomes but then it's mainly a convenience, you just get better readings, and besides it consumes a oh-so-precious part slot, so I'd say it's fairly balanced.

Balanced? You're kidding, right? It gives you such conveniences as orbital period, time to apoapsis, time to periapsis, longitude of ascending and descending node, rendezvous information, delta-V information, inclination... In the hands of an experienced user, it's almost as good as having patched conics on. Seeing as not having patched conics is one of the things that makes the Caveman challenge as hard as it is, that's a problem.

[MinimalMinmus]

1 minute ago, IncongruousGoat said:

Balanced? You're kidding, right? It gives you such conveniences as orbital period, time to apoapsis, time to periapsis, longitude of ascending and descending node, rendezvous information, delta-V information, inclination... In the hands of an experienced user, it's almost as good as having patched conics on. Seeing as not having patched conics is one of the things that makes the Caveman challenge as hard as it is, that's a problem.

An experienced user would have most of these infos anyway, just a bit later, and besides is it really that important to have patched conics on moderate? I can quite accurately blind throw into a Mun RDV, with or without, and Minmus only takes  a few tries. After this, it's only a matter of landing a few times on both, which isn't much harder with enough dV.

[IncongruousGoat]

2 hours ago, MinimalMinmus said:

An experienced user would have most of these infos anyway, just a bit later, and besides is it really that important to have patched conics on moderate? I can quite accurately blind throw into a Mun RDV, with or without, and Minmus only takes  a few tries. After this, it's only a matter of landing a few times on both, which isn't much harder with enough dV.

You ever tried to nail a free-return trajectory without patched conics? Or do orbital assembly? Neither is exactly easy. Also you say "with enough dV". In a challenge where you're limited quite severely in the part count and mass department, adding more dV to solve problems is not really a viable option.

[Superfluous J]

I'm with @IncongruousGoat here. The whole point of the Caveman challenge is that it's stock. Totally stock. Anything that actually changes the way you'd play the game - good or bad - should be out. This includes going into map mode to get your Ap height (but not time, as that's not available in stock) instead of just looking at the KER HUD.

It'd be like doing a Jool 5 but not going to Pol because you went to Bop and they're basically the same so why bother.

[GoSlash27]

What 5th Horseman said. No mods are permitted in Caveman that alter gameplay in any fashion. Mods that don't alter the info that you are given or the parts you have to work with are fine, but definitely not part packs, KER/ MechJeb, etc. You *definitely* can't have something in place that reports back your DV and T/W as you're building. That's too easy.

 The entire point of the Caveman Challenge is to get the job done with limited facilities/ parts and absolutely no help. In the case of Minimal Minmus' entry, I would've disqualified it outright. If I'm polled as a clan member on it, I vote to disqualify.  Sorry, @MinimalMinmus

Sincerely,
-The original caveman

 

6 hours ago, Martian Emigrant said:

I thought I was being kicked out for a minute there.

.

.

.

So I am good then?

.

.

.

Right?

 

Should finish in the next few days.

 

ME

Martian Emigrant,
 Back when I was running this challenge, I would've definitely preferred that the challenge be run on an unmodified install as per above. I have (grudgingly) permitted entries where MJ was installed but not used with the concurrence of the rest of the clan, but I'm not administering the challenge anymore.

Best,
-Slashy

Edited January 25, 2018 by GoSlash27

[MinimalMinmus]

Okay, okay, if there's a lot of backlash, I'll withdraw my attempt. I'll probably re-do it legit once I'm done with my current game.

[Mr. Peabody]

This has gotten busy while I was away. @Martian Emigrant, great work on the EVA report! Very "caveman style" I must say!  I'll let you get by with having MJ installed if you haven't used it to provide delta-V information so far and on the condition that it isn't used in any future missions.

@MinimalMinmus, Sorry about this but the great caveman (@GoSlash27) has spoken. You are disqualified based on the recommendation of the OP. I hope I won't see you giving up though. Now that you've got the ropes for this give it another try 100% stock. Maybe you can even take it up a notch and try a harder difficulty level.

*caveman club bump*  

Edited January 25, 2018 by The Dunatian

[MinimalMinmus]

27 minutes ago, The Dunatian said:

 

@MinimalMinmus, Sorry about this but the great caveman (@GoSlash27) has spoken. You are disqualified based on the recommendation of the OP. I hope I won't see you giving up though. Now that you've got the ropes for this give it another try 100% stock. Maybe you can even take it up a notch and try a harder difficulty level.

*caveman club bump*  

It's alright, I wasn't sure anyway.

I got pwned the first time I tried hard, KER or no KER. Turns out, the ability to reset is even more important than I think.

But y'know what? I'll do it. I'll [EXPLETIVE REDACTED] do it.

[dvader]

Huh, I never knew "learn to" was considered an expletive ...

One question though, are spreadsheets allowed? I'm using a couple (home made) both for mission planning and rocket design. Spreadsheets have been around since 1979 so it's almost Cave Man old tech...

Otherwise I don't have anything to add to the topic. Perhaps an anecdote: It takes a LOT more time to set up a comnet without orbital period. I eyeballed a quarter of a circle and set the Ap and Pe to exactly 504000/505000m. Setting the orbit was tedious but the worst part was moving the orbits after separation by just touching the satellite. I had set separator force to 0 and aimed at Normal but I still changed the orbit by 20-30m. They've been up for 63 days so far and it is still square-ish but the it is clearly getting worse.

Otherwise, the Corundum attempt is going well. It was really scary with thin margins up until the Terrier is unlocked. After that, cash is no longer a problem (since you can just repeat the "Conduct Mun Survey" missions) and Minmus is reachable as well. Now I just have to get the final 650 science...